Joesitz said the magic word:counter. You travel on an outside edge on one circle and counter rotate to the other circle. It goes back to the old days of figures. In those days your body would have been trained for the right positions in the jump by training counters on patch.
Why is the Lutz so difficult?
- Thread starter GiuliaPlum
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This gets me wondering at what level MIF test are counters introduced? Is it a higher level than the corresponding figures test?
I'd always assumed it is because of the reach-around with the toe pick, you can essentially (cheat and) cut out a half rotation.
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Novice. So one level lower.
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- Feb 5, 2004
I also think the toe-loop is easier because you kick through with the free leg which help generate height, rotation and gives you more time to trasnfer your weight to the right side for landing. Compared to the flip which requires much more strength to generate height and rotation and a stronger check to keep the inside edge shallow.
Ant
Old school skating/figures, rockers into flip jumps...as all things today a lot gets lost in the translation. Too bad. Real Lutz jumps are the same, lost in the translation and teaching of them.
Toe loops are easier yes because of the weight transfer and step thru of the free leg - somewhat of an axel type jump, which is why so many doubles are being down graded to singles ( and triples down graded to doubles) because of an improper take-off (cheat) called a toe-axel. Just as obvious as a Flutz to watch.
Many try to do lutz jumps, and at the last second change edge to the inside, hence the " ! " on protocol sheets. It means you changed edge, but less of a deduction than never attempting to get on that outside edge at all " e ", and GOE reflects accordingly.
Toe loops are easier yes because of the weight transfer and step thru of the free leg - somewhat of an axel type jump, which is why so many doubles are being down graded to singles ( and triples down graded to doubles) because of an improper take-off (cheat) called a toe-axel. Just as obvious as a Flutz to watch.
Many try to do lutz jumps, and at the last second change edge to the inside, hence the " ! " on protocol sheets. It means you changed edge, but less of a deduction than never attempting to get on that outside edge at all " e ", and GOE reflects accordingly.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Venus
I look at it like this.
Suppose you are a planet of the solar system. So you are revolving around the sun in a big circle, counterclockwise, as viewed from above the north pole. When you take off for your jump you are (also) spinning on your axis.
All the planets spin on their axis in the same direction that they are revolving around the sun -- except Venus. Venus spins the wrong way. So Venus is like a Lutz. (Actually, like a Lutz performed by a clockwise jumper like Rudy Galindo.)
Mercury rotates 1.5 times per jumping pass. That is, a year on Mercury is 1.5 Mercury days. So Mercury does a single Axel.
The Earth scoffs at mere quads. On each jumping pass the earth rotates 365 times (about 24000 times for Saturn, the Plushenko of planets.)
I look at it like this.
Suppose you are a planet of the solar system. So you are revolving around the sun in a big circle, counterclockwise, as viewed from above the north pole. When you take off for your jump you are (also) spinning on your axis.
All the planets spin on their axis in the same direction that they are revolving around the sun -- except Venus. Venus spins the wrong way. So Venus is like a Lutz. (Actually, like a Lutz performed by a clockwise jumper like Rudy Galindo.)
Mercury rotates 1.5 times per jumping pass. That is, a year on Mercury is 1.5 Mercury days. So Mercury does a single Axel.
The Earth scoffs at mere quads. On each jumping pass the earth rotates 365 times (about 24000 times for Saturn, the Plushenko of planets.)
When you change the entry edge of a lutz from an outside to an inside, you are changing circles in advance of the jump, and so it is no longer a counter jump, and you are changing the basis of the jump so it is no longer a Lutz at all. That is why changing the entry edge is such a big no no. It is more than a mistake that simply makes the jump easier. If you can't do a Lutz without changing the edge, then you can't do a Lutz at all. It is not just a matter of doing the jump badly.
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- Feb 5, 2004
That would be the black and white perspecitve of it - there's a number of shades of grey in between.
Ant
What kind of rockers did you do into flip jumps? I'm having trouble picturing this.
A LFI rocker into a counterclockwise flip? I suppose I could try this, but I only do single jumps. I imagine it would be really awkward, to turn the body clockwise onto a LBI edge and then jump counterclockwise. I'm sure it can be done with single or probably double jumps, but I've never seen anyone try. Especially not an elite skater with a triple.
Or do you mean LFO rocker onto the LBO edge? That I have seen, both intentionally and unintentionally. But taking off from the back outside edge would make the jump a lutz. Or a "lip."
I know one skater last year who intended to do a LFO rocker into double lutz; it was called as a double flip with an "e."
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- Feb 5, 2004
I can't remember which competition it was (possibly the GPF or a GP event). Chris Howarth commentating on Eurosport made some mention of elite skaters using a LFO rocker as an entrance to the triple flip. I can't remember the exact words he said but the gist of what he said was that to execute a proper three turn would give you too much rotation (he might hav said makes the turn to swingy) so in order to flatten it out and give you a more stable edge and some counter rotation to help you check and wind up for the flip some skaters used shallow rockers into the flip. The presumption being that the exit edge will be so shallow so as to be on a flat or start coming back to the inside edge.
He mentioned the danger of doing that under the new system is the edge call.
I was left pretty :scratch: when i heard him say it and then when Nicky slater called him on what he'd said he explained.
Ant
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- Jul 11, 2003
and that is the main reason so many skaters can not do a proper lutz. Just take off on any edge and get points without all the training needed. The new edge will make your air turns easier besides.
Are there 3 shades of Flip jumps or is the definitiion the only way it can be called a Flip?
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- Jun 21, 2003
Now there's a double whammy. You intend a Lutz jump. You do a Lutz jump, quite properly off the outside edge. Then the tech specialist says, no, that wasn't a Lutz, that was a "wrong-edge flip!"
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- Jul 11, 2003
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- Feb 5, 2004
Joe you know my answer to this question and know that we have to agree to disagree on this because we're both as pig headed as each other. You believe that there is only one answer to this question and that you are right.
I believe that a skater can be attempting each of those jump and slip to the wrong edge on take off to varying degrees of severity. As it happens the scoring system uses this same train of thought. That doesn't make me a COP drone or affraid to stick it to the big man which are your usual next arguments about this!
Shall we skip to the end and agree to disagree?
Ant
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- Feb 5, 2004
A triple whammy - you intend to do a lutz, with a very difficult entrance, you succeed completely and then the stupid caller got it all wrong (even though tyou wrote it down in your planned content sheet!).
Ant
As we all agree, a flip takes OFF (the foot leaves the ice) of an inside edge while the toe pick of the opposite foot is in the ice. A lutz takes OFF (the foot leaves the ice) of an outside edge while the toe pick of the opposite foot is in the ice. Doesn't matter which way you jump right or left, counter clockwise or clockwise. That is it, a less confusing explanation in the planetary system of things :yes:.
Either you do, or you don't. GOE/COP will point out what you actually executed accordingly.
There are two jumps, Flip and Lutz. Call it what you'd like any other way, and any other time it's executed differently...they're still judging either a Lutz or a Flip.
A big
for those who do two jumps the way they are intended!!!
Either you do, or you don't. GOE/COP will point out what you actually executed accordingly.
There are two jumps, Flip and Lutz. Call it what you'd like any other way, and any other time it's executed differently...they're still judging either a Lutz or a Flip.
A big
for those who do two jumps the way they are intended!!!As we all agree, a flip takes OFF (the foot leaves the ice) of an inside edge while the toe pick of the opposite foot is in the ice. A lutz takes OFF (the foot leaves the ice) of an outside edge while the toe pick of the opposite foot is in the ice. Doesn't matter which way you jump right or left, counter clockwise or clockwise. That is it, a less confusing explanation in the planetary system of things :yes:.
Either you do, or you don't. GOE/COP will point out what you actually executed accordingly.
There are two jumps, Flip and Lutz. Call it what you'd like any other way, and any other time it's executed differently...they're still judging either a Lutz or a Flip.
A big
I couldn't disagree more. A lutz is absolutely about rotating in the direction counter/opposire to the direction of the circle that is being laid out by your outside edge.
After all, a toe loop fits your description of "off of an outside edge while the toe pick of the opposite foot is in the ice"
I have always found sk8stuff to be very helpful in understanding the difference between jumps. Especially the table at the very end of this page. http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_jumps_index.htm.
:thumbsup:
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- Jan 4, 2007
I tried an LFI rocker into a flip the other day, I barely made it around 1/4 and it was a lip. I have a fairly strong flip jump and I have never before lipped in my life. I'm not saying that to do a flip off a rocker is impossible, but it's really difficult, because the rotation needed for the rocker turn is completely different.
