Joesitz said:
Sorry DG - Can't agree. I found the Pro skating championships extremely sophmoric and without redeeming value as a sport. It was just a group of kids doing their best to out do each other in their most outlandish ways. It was fun for the avid fans to watch these silly competitions for want of more skating on TV whether or not it was good sport. for the skaters, though, it was big bucks.
Does anyone really remember who won these things? and did you really care?
Joe
Actually, a lot of people remember (and still debate -- and still care) who won some of these competitions you call "sophmoric (sic)". And some of the best pro skating performances over the years were done in some of these competitions.
While the celebrity-judged and audience-judged competitions didn't interest me much, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them or that they necessarily are "bad" for the sport. (For years, "Battle of the Network Stars" was a big deal, the "Rock-n-roll Gymnastics Championships" have been around for an age, the "NFL Skills Challenge" and "Golf Skills Challenge," etc., make regular appearances on TV -- the audience doesn't seem to have any trouble figuring out that "NFL Skills Challenge" isn't the Super Bowl, and some enjoy watching their favorites perform in a different way. If people are interested enough to watch, it's probably good for the sport, because it means people are interested in the sport overall -- and they'll likely watch the Super Bowl, too).
But the "real" pro competitions really were competitions. At least, the group of skaters from the 1980s-mid 90s era for the most part approached them that way. What does it take to have any "redeeming value" as a sport? Triple axels? (Those were part of the competitions from the time Boitano joined the pro ranks), Triple-triples? (Again, Boitano was doing triple flip-triple toe through many years, Yagudin had triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe at that cheesy Ice Wars this year). New skills? (Josef Sabovcik hit the first triple axel combination of his CAREER at an Ice Wars event -- Boitano did spins in both directions for the first time in a Landover event and created his spread eagle approach into the Tano lutz after he turned pro; Mishkutenok & Dmitriev (I think it was them) tried a thow quad toe at a World Pro). Athletes competing with injuries? Almost all the pros have had and still struggle with long-standing and newly cropped up injuries, but they rehab and work and train and come back and skate.
Who cares who won? Who remembers? Well, Brian Boitano is still introduced often as 4x U.S. champion, 2x world champion, Olympic gold medalist and 6x World Professional champion. He obviously remembers. Kurt Browning was quoted in a story several years ago as saying his three World Pro titles were almost as important to him as his four "amateur" world titles -- so he obviously cares. Scott Hamilton, for goodness sake, had VANITY plates made to commemorate his victory over Brian B. at the Gold Championship. I think that means Scotty remembers -- and cares. (And I fail to see how programs like Boitano's "Carousel Waltz," "Un Amor," "Music of the Night," "Cavallerria Rusticana," "The Pirate," "Big Man on Mulberry Street," etc., Kurt's "That's Entertainment," "Brick House," "Nyah," "Bring Him Home;" Robin Cousins' "Satan Takes a Holiday," "Busy Being Blue" and -- I can't remember the name, but one World Pro where his highlight moves were all the kinds of spins in both directions; Scott's "In The Mood," "Hamilton Fantasy," "Fabulous Feet," "Mr. Bojangles;" Kristi Yamaguchi's "Skating 101," "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows," "Trouble," and a HOST of others, Denise Biellman's many and varied programs, almost anything Martini & Underhill did (Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini, When a Man Loves at Woman, Orange Colored Sky, etc.), several of Bechke & Petrov (I loved them, but can't recall right now the names of their programs), Klimova & Ponomarenko's Beethovan's 5th program, etc., etc., etc., could be considered "just a group of kids doing their best to out do each other in their most outlandish ways." Perhaps Jositz could explain what was "outlandish" about those programs (and how 20-something, 30-something and lately 40-something skaters still doing big jumps, spins and footwork through a variety of injuries can be considered "kids").
Even things like Boitano's "Wild Elephants" and Kristi's "Never Gonna Get It" were examples of skaters moving away from the tried and true and taking chances, trying something new. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, but heck, they took the risk (and usually still included some pretty dang good skating "skills" in jumps, spins, footwork, etc.) Some programs I, too, thought were "outlandish" and over-the-top (Candeloro dancing with an ape? yes, indeed) and not really something that should have been offered in a competition -- but the vast majority were not in that category.
Sure, the skaters had fun with each other and with competing, but for the most part, they came prepared. And while they'll all say that the outcome wasn't life-and-death, they will still talk about how terribly nervous they were at events like Landover and Gold Championship and they CARED about their performances. (OK, some were quick to say they "didn't care" about the outcome and it "wasn't real," but in many cases, they had said the same types of things in amateur competition -- if they didn't win when they thought they should, they'd say it was because the judging was suspect, etc). In the non-celebrity judged competitions, the judges were former skaters, coaches and choreographers. They didn't have pages and pages of rules to judge the skaters by, but that doesn't mean they couldn't make informed decisions on what they thought was the best skating on the night. Were the outcomes sometimes incomprehensible? Of course (but then, it seems to me there are pages and pages of debates over amateur results that have been pretty incomprehensible over the years, too). Was it legit? Depends on your definition. Let's see, skaters took it seriously, judges took their jobs seriously (again, some -- well, one in particular I cant hink off -- would say it wasn't important to them, but all those I've talked to, and that's quite a few, said they tried to honestly do their best, and I figure that most of them are pretty legitimate figures in the skating world), so I would think that makes it pretty legit.
Yes, some of the comps, especially since about 1998 or so, degenerated into who could do the most outlandish thing, and for a while, the pro judges rewarded that. And that's when I stopped watching much of it. And much of it disappeared. But that doesn't, to me, cast a shadow on all the great skating that went on before. (And hey, I quit watching a lot of amateur skating the past few years, too, because the judging and the results became way too "outlandish" for me to be willing to invest my time in something I felt was not legit -- and I have become bored with seeing the same thing over and over from the same people.)
By the way, Doggygirl -- I agree with you on Kristi's Chris Dean-choreographed program. It was fantastic! However, I do believe what you were seeing it in was that "cheesy, America vs. the World or whatever" competition called Ice Wars. Kristi did "Belleville Rendezvous" in Ice Wars this year, coming back to competition (well, she called it competition, but I guess it doesn't really rate as that by Jositz's definition) after taking a year off when she had her baby, and she said it was her first time doing a Chris Dean-choreographed program and it was very challenging for her. Triple toe, double axel, nice spins, fantastic footwork -- not bad for a 30-something mother -- oops, or rather, a "kid doing something outlandish." (I've been to many of those "cheesy" Ice Wars competitions over the years and seen some awfully good skating and very creative ideas and programs -- and seen the skaters have a good time being on a "team").
I loved the old pro comp days -- I didn't watch the competitions that were not my cup of tea (but I realize other fans and skaters enjoyed those) and I watched and cheered on my favorites in the comps I did enjoy (and would debate with friends over the results. It wasn't life and death, it wasn't "the Olympics" or anything like that, but hey, any time my favorites are involved with a judge handing out marks, I want my favorite to be judged the best). And it was fun to watch -- and debate -- the decisions of people like Irina Rodnina, Frank Carroll, Oleg Vassiliev, Tim Wood, Barbara Ann Scott, Charlie Tickner, Mary Lynn Gelderman, Bernard Ford, Petra Burka and others. They know skating, and have as much right as anyone to decide who should win. And I had a right to disagree (which I did with regularity). Of course, during that time, my interest in skating had to be fed by also watching the amateur events, agonizing over favorites there (in competitions that were much more "life and death" than the pro comps). I watched the amateurs, looking forward to continuing to see them in the pro ranks as a new crop of amateurs came along. I think pro skating helped promote interest in amateur skating. The two fed off each other.
My question is, are today's skaters -- and fans -- are interested in pro competitions? I don't see it. Most of the fans of the current eligible crop seem to be interested only in seeing skaters do short and long programs and win medals. That's fine. Like Jositz, many seem to feel that anything that isn't ISU-style skating is sophomoric (I find that a bit amusing, seeing that almost all of today's eligible stars have participated in numerous "pro" style events, but people debate those outcomes, too). And most of the skaters have expressed the same viewpoint during their eligible careers -- they've been "pros" for many years, done nationals, worlds, Olympics, ISU pro-ams, USFSA "cheesefests," etc., and don't seem interested or challenged by the idea of turning pro and having no restrictions, which the former skaters who didn't have those opportunities when they were "amateurs" looked forward to. They like to stay eligible as long as their bodies will hold out and compete in the ISU (or USFSA cheesefest) circuit. That's fine, they should do what interests them. But that also means they usually have little left to offer when they're through competing -- they're usually pretty banged up and have developed such an ingrained "style" that they really aren't looking to try new things. That's fine, too -- that way, it appears both they and their fans get what they want, and Jositz, at least, is can be happy watching "legitimate" sport and not be annoyed by the thought that some skaters and fans are enjoying participating in/watching "non-legitimate" sport.
WOW!! Umm..... St. Louis might be a good venue for that???? See you takers in January...
