Women and the Quad

[Lunalovesskating]

New 4S practice video from Rika from Japanese TV
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bxo9ufnjzWq/?igshid=1syno33xlpu01

 

[nussnacker]

New 4S practice video from Rika from Japanese TV
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bxo9ufnjzWq/?igshid=1syno33xlpu01

It’s looking pretty good already! I think she can nail it by September! Rika is so athletic and powerful!

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Rika's new FS with 4S and 3A+2T directly afterwards
https://twitter.com/rika_kihira/status/1130137437517242369?s=20

 

[moonkat]

What you're saying makes no sense. How can women be better jumpers when men's quads have been around for quite a some time, but women's is a new phenomenon.

Well, it is more like the ladies division has more talent because figure skating is more popular among ladies. If the men's division had the same amount of talent, perhaps we would have quad axels already.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

New 4S practice video from Rika from Japanese TV
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bxo9ufnjzWq/?igshid=1syno33xlpu01

It’s a little UR, but wow! It’s so effortless!

 

[Alexz]

Thank you Rika for proving my point once again - we need more quads in Ladies field. Rika is already technically more advanced than probably 80% of Japanese men. Like I said we will have ladies at the same technical level as men. In few years - and I can only guess here: 3-8 years? Dunno. But this will happen. Figure skating is one of the rare sport where testosterone level does not matter much.

 

[nussnacker]

So, we’re about to have at least 4-5 ladies as of now with quads and 3A at next Olympics, which in a way is also very sad.
It’s sad, that some can miss a podium while being able to land a quad/3A, for me it’s a pure heartbreak.
A stunning leap for ladies in tes, but I will really feel for ladies, who are capable of jumping those incredible jumps, but will miss the podium.
At previous Olympics, having one quad would have probably guaranteed a podium finish, now it may be enough to get in top-5.

 

[Yuzuruu]

So, we’re about to have at least 4-5 ladies as of now with quads and 3A at next Olympics, which in a way is also very sad.
It’s sad, that some can miss a podium while being able to land a quad/3A, for me it’s a pure heartbreak.
A stunning leap for ladies in tes, but I will really feel for ladies, who are capable of jumping those incredible jumps, but will miss the podium.
At previous Olympics, having one quad would have probably guaranteed a podium finish, now it may be enough to get in top-5.

That's true, but also how thrilling to watch such development in the ladies field. Next season is going to be truly amazing. And there's no doubt that even though it was a Japanese lady who achieved a quad first, we owe the current revolution to Eteri Tutberidze who guided her kids to achieve the "impossible".
As always I am worried that the quad-chase will overtake the artistry and rest of the skills, so please Ladies - do the quads but not at all cost. I don't want to see three-quads and an empty program, slow spins and barely done steps pleaseeee

I haven't been that invested in ladies field since Yuna Kim and Mao Asada retired but now Rika rekindled my love for ladies skating her quads already look great, effortless, slightly UR but there's still time

 

[Ice Dance]

So, we’re about to have at least 4-5 ladies as of now with quads and 3A at next Olympics, which in a way is also very sad.
It’s sad, that some can miss a podium while being able to land a quad/3A, for me it’s a pure heartbreak.
A stunning leap for ladies in tes, but I will really feel for ladies, who are capable of jumping those incredible jumps, but will miss the podium.
At previous Olympics, having one quad would have probably guaranteed a podium finish, now it may be enough to get in top-5.

We've had one quad landed in senior competition.

Let's wait & see what happens in real competition before we go mourning people missing the podium and/or assuming how many athletes will try or land jumps. Yes, it looks like we may have at least 4 senior ladies go for a quadruple jump next season. So it's practical to think we may really get those at some point and that there's likely to be a push among the whole field. It's also practical to remember how long it took the guys to go from one senior quad landed (1988) to a field that could actually start requiring them to make the podium (well over a decade later). The scoring system today rewards these jumps more so we could see a much faster push here, but we have maturity working against the ladies, not to mention the depth of the Russian and Japanese field. And finally, summer video is video. It tells us nothing about percentages or ability to land a jump under competition pressure. And also, GOE is worth a lot right now. As we've seen in the men's field, it's rewarding well executed performances overall, not just one jump. You need to be able to deliver the whole program. I'm curious to see what will happen. Some of these ladies give every indication they may be able to do just that and that they can give each other a run for their money. The ladies JGPF two years ago was something else. JGPF practices this year, though, showed the reverse. The girls struggled with consistency on these super hard jumps just like the guys. So we wait and see who decides what's worth doing in regular competition. And we wait & see who makes it to the deeper head-to-heads.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Is there any video of Hanna Harrell practicing the quad?

Is Kamila Valieva planning on adding a quad this coming season? Is there video of her doing a quad?

 

[nussnacker]

We've had one quad landed in senior competition.

Let's wait & see what happens in real competition before we go mourning people missing the podium and/or assuming how many athletes will try or land jumps. Yes, it looks like we may have at least 4 senior ladies go for a quadruple jump next season. So it's practical to think we may really get those at some point and that there's likely to be a push among the whole field. It's also practical to remember how long it took the guys to go from one senior quad landed (1988) to a field that could actually start requiring them to make the podium (well over a decade later). The scoring system today rewards these jumps more so we could see a much faster push here, but we have maturity working against the ladies, not to mention the depth of the Russian and Japanese field. And finally, summer video is video. It tells us nothing about percentages or ability to land a jump under competition pressure. And also, GOE is worth a lot right now. As we've seen in the men's field, it's rewarding well executed performances overall, not just one jump. You need to be able to deliver the whole program. I'm curious to see what will happen. Some of these ladies give every indication they may be able to do just that and that they can give each other a run for their money. The ladies JGPF two years ago was something else. JGPF practices this year, though, showed the reverse. The girls struggled with consistency on these super hard jumps just like the guys. So we wait and see who decides what's worth doing in regular competition. And we wait & see who makes it to the deeper head-to-heads.

That's an exaggeration, no one was mourning =)
I don't think quads/3A are going to go anywhere, there are now 4 seniors doing them, and there are at least 3 juniors with quads who will be 15-16 by '22 and make the cut to olympics.
You might think those are just "summer videos" or that quads are unstable, I think that they are stable enough to let those girls have almost all podium finishes, including the olympic one =)
Even a quad with a fall gives a lot more opportunities to shape the program better, and be more flexible with TES.
As Konstantinova said: "If I'll wait until it all will go back to triples, I can be waiting until I'm 60"

Men's field is vastly different to ladies field. In men, artistic component is more rewarded, hence PCS are factored to 1.0
In women, ISU tries to encourage the TES, hence, PCS is factored to 0.8. So comparing men and women is incorrect.
And while you're talking about well executed performances overall in men, I think this year's worlds proved exactly the opposite, that ISU wants quads in men more than anything, as Nathan got almost the same PCS as Yuzuru and Vincent made the podium =)

 

[MissBeeFarm]

Is there any video of Hanna Harrell practicing the quad?

Is Kamila Valieva planning on adding a quad this coming season? Is there video of her doing a quad?

Valieva: 4T + 3T (Rippon) https://youtu.be/Si0AWgf3Txc?t=21

 

[gkelly]

In men, artistic component is more rewarded, hence PCS are factored to 1.0
In women, ISU tries to encourage the TES, hence, PCS is factored to 0.8.

My understanding is not so much that the ISU intended to encourage artistic components more in men and TES more in women, but rather to approximately balance the contributions of TES and PCS for each discipline. At the time that the IJS was being developed the typical content of the men's and women's fields as a whole was such that anticipated top men's TES could approach approximately 50 in the SP and 100 in the FS, whereas top women's TES would be approximately 40 and 80, respectively, so the PCS factors were set accordingly.

Meanwhile, over the past decade and a half, especially the past 3 or 4 years, the potential and actual top TES has increased significantly in both disciplines. There has already been some talk of raising the men's PCS factor so PCS could become more commensurate with the technical points available from multiple quads. But nothing has come of that talk yet, so men's TES currently tends to overpower the PCS significantly. The shortened free program length and removal of one jump pass since last year may have been an effort to mitigate that imbalance.

If quads and triple axels (more than one of the above per skater) start becoming common in the ladies field, then the same discussion would be needed in the ladies' discipline as well. But at the time that the PCS factors were set, state of the art for top women was 7 triples (which required at least one 3-3 or 2A+3 combo), but no more, so the PCS factor did not need to be as high as in a discipline where 7 or 8 triples (including two 3A) and 1-3 quads were common.

 

[Ice Dance]

That's an exaggeration, no one was mourning =)

OK, not mourning. But you are making a lot of assumptions. Positive ones, I might add; and I am good with optimism. I didn't predict that the more difficult jumps would disappear--only pointed out that the curve for a jump to become the podium standard is not necessarily so prompt. And we needn't compare the women to men if you like. We can take a look at how long it has taken to go from one lady with one triple axel (1988) to the point at which triple axels were required to make a podium (still pending at both the junior & senior level). The curve just isn't that predictable. The quad race in the men's field seemed to sprint forward beyond pretty much everyone's expectations over the past few seasons (though, when we look back, we can see that there were a whole lot of steps along the way leading to these multiple quad programs). You could say the same has happened in the junior ladies field. And at the same time, we had so many ladies--many of them quite wonderful jumpers--that struggled with their jumps and reaching adolescence and/or physical maturity last season (Matsuda, Shiraiwa, Medvedeva, Honda, Zagitova, Andrews, Chen, etc). Medvedeva & Zagitova moved right up to seniors out of juniors and did exactly what many fans of the junior ladies field expected them to. Tsurkskaya & Gubanova did not.

It's just not something we can predict. We can say this is what it looks like you may need to control your own destiny next season. But, really, who at the beginning of this past season predicted Tursynbaeva to win World silver and land the first quadruple in senior ladies competition? (I didn't, and she has been one of my favorite ladies since she debuted in senior competition). Who predicted last summer that Liza would get a solid triple axel? Who predicted Mirai would make the Olympic team with a triple axel over Ashley Wagner? Who predicted that Kostornaia would not attempt a single triple axel this past season? Or that Tennell--after defeating Medvedeva with a triple loop combo at Autumn Classic--would nix that combination before Worlds? We love to predict. It's part of the fun. But as often as not, we do a lousy job at it.

 

[nussnacker]

OK, not mourning. But you are making a lot of assumptions. Positive ones, I might add; and I am good with optimism. I didn't predict that the more difficult jumps would disappear--only pointed out that the curve for a jump to become the podium standard is not necessarily so prompt. And we needn't compare the women to men if you like. We can take a look at how long it has taken to go from one lady with one triple axel (1988) to the point at which triple axels were required to make a podium (still pending at both the junior & senior level). The curve just isn't that predictable. The quad race in the men's field seemed to sprint forward beyond pretty much everyone's expectations over the past few seasons (though, when we look back, we can see that there were a whole lot of steps along the way leading to these multiple quad programs). You could say the same has happened in the junior ladies field. And at the same time, we had so many ladies--many of them quite wonderful jumpers--that struggled with their jumps and reaching adolescence and/or physical maturity last season (Matsuda, Shiraiwa, Medvedeva, Honda, Zagitova, Andrews, Chen, etc). Medvedeva & Zagitova moved right up to seniors out of juniors and did exactly what many fans of the junior ladies field expected them to. Tsurkskaya & Gubanova did not.

It's just not something we can predict. We can say this is what it looks like you may need to control your own destiny next season. But, really, who at the beginning of this past season predicted Tursynbaeva to win World silver and land the first quadruple in senior ladies competition? (I didn't, and she has been one of my favorite ladies since she debuted in senior competition). Who predicted last summer that Liza would get a solid triple axel? Who predicted Mirai would make the Olympic team with a triple axel over Ashley Wagner? Who predicted that Kostornaia would not attempt a single triple axel this past season? Or that Tennell--after defeating Medvedeva with a triple loop combo at Autumn Classic--would nix that combination before Worlds? We love to predict. It's part of the fun. But as often as not, we do a lousy job at it.

I sure am! I ain't claiming to be Nostradamus, my friend!
Anything can happen, no one knows the future, all the ladies jumping quads and 3A can get injured and never jump again (Wakaba), get into car crashes (Tarusina),
have coaching changes that aren't as successful, there is a number of possibilities
I just don't get why you have so many issues with me making assumptions though =)

 

[Claudalie]

So, we’re about to have at least 4-5 ladies as of now with quads and 3A at next Olympics, which in a way is also very sad.
It’s sad, that some can miss a podium while being able to land a quad/3A, for me it’s a pure heartbreak.
A stunning leap for ladies in tes, but I will really feel for ladies, who are capable of jumping those incredible jumps, but will miss the podium.
At previous Olympics, having one quad would have probably guaranteed a podium finish, now it may be enough to get in top-5.

No only that. At the worlds, there was so much talk about Kihira's 3A that by falling on the jump her entire program flopped. This jump chase may end up just that - a chase....

 

[yume]

No only that. At the worlds, there was so much talk about Kihira's 3A that by falling on the jump her entire program flopped. This jump chase may end up just that - a chase....

I don't see how her entire programs flopped because of mistake on 3A at worlds. All the season she had an incredible success rate on all jumps that are not 3A.
At least this season she never did a competition without landing at least one clean 3A. So it isn't like she doesn't know how to land it. Attempting three 3As is incredibly difficult.
And so far she just doesn't just say that she want to jump 4S next season. She shows that she can do it.

 

[oatmella]

I would think among Rika, Elizabet, Sasha, Anna, and others, there will be at least some successful quads in senior ladies next season and beyond - including at the Olympics.

 

[Claudalie]

I don't see how her entire programs flopped because of mistake on 3A at worlds. All the season she had an incredible success rate on all jumps that are not 3A.
At least this season she never did a competition without landing at least one clean 3A. So it isn't like she doesn't know how to land it. Attempting three 3As is incredibly difficult.
And so far she just doesn't just say that she want to jump 4S next season. She shows that she can do it.

Her entire program was built on and around that 3A, so when she did not land it clean, the program fell apart despite other jumps she executed well. With due respect to her and her team, it was not a great program. And I know how difficult a 3A jump is. Only a few female skaters do it. Others just try to shy away from it so difficult its execution is technically. I am not saying she does not know how to land it, I am saying she's inconsistent.

 

[yume]

Her entire program was built on and around that 3A, so when she did not land it clean, the program fell apart despite other jumps she executed well.

For you.

With due respect to her and her team, it was not a great program.

Your taste.

I am not saying she does not know how to land it, I am saying she's inconsistent.

Yes she's inconsistent. Like Trusova and Scherbakova are inconsistents with their quads. Because 3A/quads are difficult as hell.