2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[CaroLiza_fan]

One scenario worth considering is sending Ross and Adam to the Olympics and Vincent and Jason to Worlds. Nathan gets to go to both obviously.

My thoughts exactly! Send Nathan to both and split the other two slots. :agree:

According to the ISU stats, Nathan, Adam and Jason are the top 3 Men's skaters from the USA in terms of:

1. ISU World Standings
2. ISU Season's World Rankings
3. ISU Personal Best Score for Short Programme (Evan is actually ahead of Adam in third, but is discounted as he isn't competing any more)
4. ISU Personal Best Score for Free Skate
5. ISU Personal Best Total Score
6. ISU Season's Best Score for Short Programme
7. ISU Season's Best Score for Free Skate

Note: Max Aaron narrowly edged out Jason for third place in the ISU Season's Best Total Score.

So, I would be inclined to send Adam and Jason to Worlds. They are the guys who have had the stronger season overall, and Worlds matter in terms of earning slots for next season.

The Olympics are just a stand-alone thing. They only matter in terms of prestige. So, give Ross and Vincent the honour of being able to say they are an Olympian (Jason already has it from Sochi. I thought Adam did too, but was surprised to find there now that he doesn't. But I had forgotten that the USA only had 2 slots in Men in 2014 ).

And doing this would also have the added bonus of keeping the following people quiet:

1. those that believe that the Olympics are the be-all and end-all
2. those that believe that it should be strictly the Top 3 in Nationals that get selected for the Olympics

Suffice to say, I'm not one of those people.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lurkz2]

This is exactly what I was pointing out in the U.S. men's thread. USFS need to say TO THE VERY DETAIL what was being factored. I understand they don't want to reveal every aspect of the process, but at least enough so it's really clear that Nationals is just ONE competition out of many that are being considered. Yes, while there was a list -- it was just a list. What are media/stakeholders supposed to do with that.

I'd be interested to hear what, if anything, was mentioned at Champs Camp or other monitoring sessions regarding the Olympic criteria. If Mark Mitchell was THAT confused and frustrated, that tells me USFS didn't do their job.

Again, there needs to be regular updates on the top contenders. It doesn't have to be super fancy -- just explaining to people where different people stand. There needs to be extensive press kits, FAQs -- When you're making a dramatic change in the selection process, every detail needs to be explained.

The other issue is that what happened at Nationals had great variability with each man. Nathan was easy -- he won nationals and won all his competitions.

But Vincent? He had a so-so fall -- it's very obvious that his nationals performance is what persuaded them to put him on the team (along with Jr. Worlds), but I think had he not turned in two solid performances at Nationals and place in the top three, he wouldn't be getting on with BOW.

It didn't matter for Ross, Adam or Max. Not for Ross cause it wasn't enough for him to get on the team, not for Adam because it wasn't enough for them to justify not putting him on the team. Max got 4CC and 3rd alternate over several men who beat him at nationals.

Jason was kind of the middle-- he performed so poorly in the FS, they weren't going to officially put him on the team, but the FS disaster wasn't enough for them to override body of work, hence their decision for 1st alternate status.

I think that is kind of frustrating.

I think they need the flexibility because of the team event. The US is contending for a medal there and USFS has to strategize properly. Fixing the criteria would greatly affect their flexibility.

I agree with the comments saying they will probably field Nathan for the short, but may need to rest him for the individual event since he has an opportunity to medal. Which means they have to stick with the men who have the best scoring free skates. I haven't done the math Mrs. P but I think Adam and Vincent would probably have the next highest free skates (after Nathan).

 

[Globetrotter]

Jason can't be sent to Worlds in his present condition, he is not skating well. 2nd alternate at both events is the very most he should get, he needs to end his season at 4CC and start figuring out how to fix the jump issues so he can be a competitor in the next quadrennial.

Agree on the not sending. Unfortunately, I suspect that Jason’s issue is not as simple as fixing the jumps. The men’s competition has now evolved into a multi quad fest just like how the ladies have become more a jumps and tech point grabbing exercise. Skaters like Jason and Ashley who depend more on PCS are slowly but surely being left behind and I can imagine how the pressure of landing a big quad and all the 3A to max out TES can add loads of pressure to Jason resulting in a mess. If Satoko was not such a toughie and so good overall on her non jumps, I bet she would be left behind too. Dealing with the competitive pressure and the mental stress of perceiving the need to bring on the quad are probably what makes Jason all off right now. It’s much easier to fix a tech problem than a mental hurdle I think.

 

[sk811]

Wait so Adam Rippon IS going on olympics? I’m so confused

 

[Mrs. P]

I think they need the flexibility because of the team event. The US is contending for a medal there and USFS has to strategize properly. Fixing the criteria would greatly affect their flexibility.

I agree with the comments saying they will probably field Nathan for the short, but may need to rest him for the individual event since he has an opportunity to medal. Which means they have to stick with the men who have the best scoring free skates. I haven't done the math Mrs. P but I think Adam and Vincent would probably have the next highest free skates (after Nathan).

Basically Adam had the highest at 177, then basically Jason, Max and Vincent are virtually tied with scores on the 176 range. Ross' season best is in the low 160s.

 

[Barb]

Wait so Adam Rippon IS going on olympics? I’m so confused

yes, he is IN the olympic team.

 

[Tahuu]

USFS obviously considered Adam and Jason to be more reliable skaters at International competitions.

They want to send them and Nathan to 2018 Worlds and reward them with the Olympic berths. USFS had decided to send the Olympic team to Worlds.

If everything went as they set up, it’d be Nathan, Adam, Jason, Ross (they thanked him for knocking down Vincent a step and made their job even easier) and Vincent. But unexpectedly when the biggest personal dream was on the line both Adam and Jason faulted, leaving USFS with the mess they had.

They just didn’t trust Ross could help them get the 3 spots at Worlds. There is a chance the alternate may be called upon. That’s why they wouldn’t give him the first alternate for the Olympics or the Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

USFS obviously considered Adam and Jason to be more reliable skaters at International competitions.

They want to send them and Nathan to 2018 Worlds and reward them with the Olympic berths. USFS had decided to send the Olympic team to Worlds.

If everything went as they set up, it’d be Nathan, Adam, Jason, Ross (they thanked him for knocking down Vincent a step and made their job even easier) and Vincent. But unexpectedly when the biggest personal dream was on the line both Adam and Jason faulted, leaving USFS with the mess they had.

I would say that the USFSA probably did want one of Jason or Adam on the team. They don't have reliable quads, but they can rack up the points with their triples and PCS in the LP, and that is going to help a lot in the team event. For the third spot, I presume that came down to Ross or Vincent, and they may have felt that it was difficult to deny Vincent again after achieving a high enough result to make the team. I get why Jason would be the first alternate for the Olympics, because it could be Adam that needed to be replaced if he happened to get injured. But I would have at least given Ross the first alternate spot for Worlds, if not Adam or Vincent's spot.

 

[MiRé]

Jason being the 1st alternate and Ross being second is the perfect excuse from USFSA to allow Adam in the Olympics team. It's like they're trying to justify that Ross never had a chance to stand against either of them.

 

[Warwick360]

Never watching /following US nationals again. If there are viewers like me on the American soil then I think the USFS have really shot themselves in the foot this time. What's the point of going or watching Nationals and rooting for your favourite when USFS can reshuffle whenever or however they like using the "rulebook" excuse? Days have gone by and I still think Vincent should have gone to Worlds and Ross should have been the third person on the Olympics team. To not even be the first alternate is just so infuriating. I am still FURIOUS.........FURIOUS!!!!:ddevil:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Jason being the 1st alternate and Ross being second is the perfect excuse from USFSA to allow Adam in the Olympics team. It's like they're trying to justify that Ross never had a chance to stand against either of them.

Good point. I think part of it might also be that the decision to send Jason last year worked out exactly as planned, so that result probably validated that BoW is a good practice to adhere to.

 

[TMC]

Jason being the 1st alternate and Ross being second is the perfect excuse from USFSA to allow Adam in the Olympics team. It's like they're trying to justify that Ross never had a chance to stand against either of them.

This. I was furious at first for Ross's sake but then I realised that they had to pick Jason as first alternate because otherwise people could say that the rules were interpreted one way for Adam and one way for others ie. Jason. If you're going to use the BOW rule for one skater, you then kind of have to use it for all other skaters as well, and Jason's BOW is way above Ross's. So I can understand their reasoning but on an emotional level it just completely broke my heart (and I'm a Jason fan)

 

[Blades of Passion]

SEVEN in your opinion.

And in the opinion of anyone with eyes who wants to take a look at those jumps closely, as tech panels will now be doing to Vincent Zhou's cheated jumps. He has been cheating them all season long, his international scores and placements have been inflated because of it and an Olympic selection committee should be looking at the ACTUAL skating to assess who would be able to score best at the Olympics.

And even underrotated you wanna talk Ross' quad record because you're gonna see a lot of doubles/triples. Which are worse than <.

Quads are not the only thing that matter, as evidenced by Adam and Jason being considered the favorites for the Olympic team going into Nationals. Ross is able to do a higher quality 3A than Vincent and he has better skating skills and transitions and performance ability. Regardless, what Ross did at Nationals is what he should be expected to do at the Olympics. He performed better than Vincent ever has. It doesn't matter what the record is for Ross on the quad (and he HAS done it before), he trained all season to deliver his best in the second half of the season, this is the level he's skating at right now and it should be expected that can he replicate this performance at the Olympics, if not improve upon it.

 

[Mrs. P]

This. I was furious at first for Ross's sake but then I realised that they had to pick Jason as first alternate because otherwise people could say that the rules were interpreted one way for Adam and one way for others ie. Jason. If you're going to use the BOW rule for one skater, you then kind of have to use it for all other skaters as well, and Jason's BOW is way above Ross's. So I can understand their reasoning but on an emotional level it just completely broke my heart (and I'm a Jason fan)

Also I think USFS remembers when they opted to send Ross to Worlds when he beat Jeremy Abbott twice and the second time he completely bombed the competition and the US was unable to get three spots for Sochi. Jason and Adam, FWIW, have helped the US either keep or regain the third spot in the last four years. Jason and Adam in 2015 help the US keep the third spot while Jason and Nathan in 2017 regained the third spot.

It doesn't mean I agree with the decision, but it's the logic I can see.

It's so funny that back in the previous quad leading up to Sochi people were lamenenting about had USPS put too much stock in US Nationals and now we're saying the opposite now. How things change...

 

[Tavi...]

In my opinion, as ugly and unintended as the result was here, it’s only fair to apply the same standards to everyone, unless the rules themselves limit how/when they’re applied, or provide for an exception (for example, there could be an exception that if you’re bumped from the Olympic Team under body of work you’re automatically the first alternate).

Without that kind of stated exception, picking and choosing who gets the favorable benefit of rules is not only unfair, in the US it can be grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[gstrain]

I hadn't noticed anyone mention this icenetwork article from Jan 20th on a "late" change (Dec 13th) that was made to the rules for World Team selection: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/20/214003280

The rule change made it so that US Champ winners were no longer automatically selected for Worlds. Quoting from it:

According to a U.S. Figure Skating spokesperson, the rules change to eliminate the champions' automatic qualification was made in the fall by the U.S. Figure Skating International Committee, with approval coming Dec. 13 by the organization's board and its Athletes Advisory Committee.

That decision was made too late to make it into the 2017 U.S. Figure Skating media guide, which says the winner of each discipline at the current U.S. championships will earn an automatic spot on the world team.

There has been no public announcement of the new rules, nor are they available on the public area of U.S. Figure Skating's website. The change was first reported by International Skating Online (on Jan 18th, ed.)

...

While it seems highly unlikely that a national champion would be left off the world or Olympic teams, Raith said Friday he could imagine some scenarios in which it might happen.

I'll finish his quote for him as "Like Ross Miner winning."

 

[ice coverage]

I hadn't noticed anyone mention this icenetwork article from Jan 20th on a "late" change (Dec 13th) that was made to the rules for World Team selection: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/20/214003280

The rule change made it so that US Champ winners were no longer automatically selected for Worlds. Quoting from it: ..

Your article from Jan 2017 -- with the rule change taking effect for 2017 Nats and thereafter -- was much discussed on GS at the time.

And the rule change did come up again in GS discussion leading up to 2018 Nats.

The change was "late" in terms of 2017 Nats.

But it is not a "late" change in terms of 2018 Nats.

 

[NanaPat]

In my opinion, as ugly and unintended as the result was here, it’s only fair to apply the same standards to everyone, unless the rules themselves limit how/when they’re applied, or provide for an exception (for example, there could be an exception that if you’re bumped from the Olympic Team under body of work you’re automatically the first alternate).

Without that kind of stated exception, picking and choosing who gets the favorable benefit of rules is not only unfair, in the US it can be grounds for a lawsuit.

I agree with adding a "if you get bumped, you get worlds" rule. Or even "if you get bumped from gold or silver, you get worlds."

I saw a "Body of work" comparison (maybe on rockerskating's twitter) that included Jason. It looked to me from that like Jason had a better claim than Adam to the spot. He had more check marks in tier one than Adam did.

The whole problem is that not all things in the tiers are weighted equally, nor should they be. I think the more recent competitions (like Nationals!) should be weighed more heavily. And perhaps they are. They seem to have been in the choice between Adam and Jason. But not for Ross.

 

[Ravyn Rant]

Never watching /following US nationals again. If there are viewers like me on the American soil then I think the USFS have really shot themselves in the foot this time. What's the point of going or watching Nationals and rooting for your favourite when USFS can reshuffle whenever or however they like using the "rulebook" excuse? Days have gone by and I still think Vincent should have gone to Worlds and Ross should have been the third person on the Olympics team. To not even be the first alternate is just so infuriating. I am still FURIOUS.........FURIOUS!!!!:ddevil:

I know how you feel, and I've been watching the crazy that is the sport of figure skating for 50 years. They can quote the rule book at me until they're blue in the face, but that doesn't make it fair. I can't say I'll never watch Nationals again, but the thought of traveling and spending all the money to attend Nationals again isn't a happy thought anymore. If the results don't matter, why bother investing all the time, money and emotion? And if I'm feeling that way as a fan, I can't imagine how the affected athletes are coping!
I'm sure that the committee didn't factor fan disgust into their decision, but think about how viewership and fan involvement dropped after the various judging scandals around the turn of the century. Just sayin'.
If Mr. Rant hadn't found that Rastafarian church and took me there on Sunday morning I'd never have settled down for the free dance. Jah bless, ya'll.

 

[Mrs. P]

Honestly, I think if Ross had medaled at his last GP or even at his challenger events he would be going. USFS did pick him as the host pick for Skate America and gave him two challenger events.