Those Little Errors in Scoring

[Mathman]

...shrine...

Mrs. Mathman broke my Michelle Kwan snow globe. Tried to pretend it was an accident.

 

[doubleflutz]

I posted before that if you assume the worst of all these officials and their tools and trust only your own eyes and opinions, then there will never be a satisfactory system to you, unless you are the sole decider of every thing. But then how do the rest of us trust you, especially since you are so aware of all the opportunities and ways to be unfair?

No system is ever going to be 100% satisfactory, but the judging in skating has historically had a lot of questionable moments, and there's no reason that the perfect has to be the enemy of the good. There's still plenty of room for improvement.

Not everyone who posts here only cares about the elite-level skating you see on TV. There can be judging/calling at all levels of the sport. For people who coach, compete, or both, it's more than just a matter of getting worked up about something we have no connection to. And even for those who only care about elite skating, don't skate, and have never skated, it's still a silly argument. There are a lot of things wrong with how the ISU does business, and there's no reason not to talk about it.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Mrs. Mathman broke my Michelle Kwan snow globe. Tried to pretend it was an accident.

Did you boycott her favorite singer's concerts? Misplaced her souvenirs? Wiped out her online shrine by accident?

Nah, you can't win.

 

[gkelly]

According to gkelly, posting on another thread, it goes like this. The tech specialist makes the call in real time -- let's say, "wrong edge!" The judges are expected to take this call into account in their scores for that element -- let's say they reduce the GOE by 2 points from what they would have given if the edge had been correct.

I don't think they call "wrong edge" in real time. I think all they'll say in real time is "Double lutz. Review."

If the TS just calls "Double lutz" and either the Asst. TS or the Controller think there was a wrong edge, then they might be the ones to call Review.

The review and the symbol shown to the judges don't happen until after the program is over.

The judges might take a GOE reduction because of the wrong edge in real time because they saw the error for themselves in real time. Or they might decide after the fact, after they see whether any edge calls or underrotation/downgrade calls show up on their screen.

Except that the tech panel's video feed isn't released to the public, and it's different from the network/broadcast feeds for events. They also only use one camera angle, unlike other high-profile sports that use instant replay. The tech panel can and should be argued against. Sometimes it might be political, sometimes it might just be simple non-malicious mistakes, but they can and do eff up, both in terms of consistency (ie, not calling an obvious flutz on Skater A but calling it for Skater B) and just being flat-out wrong.

So sometimes a tech panel might be flat-out wrong for some reason. But in order to know that is the case, the person(s) making the determination of wrongness would have to have more knowledge than the tech panel.

E.g., if several people or cameras from several different angles saw/showed an underrotation or wrong edge on an element that the tech panel failed to call, and you can get input from all those people or watch video from all those cameras and also from the official replay camera to determine that the error really did occur. Sometimes just one other perspective will make it obvious if the element happened to have been placed in the worst position for the official camera to catch it.

But if you're just working from one angle and that angle isn't any better than the official camera angle, possibly worse, then your call isn't any more reliable than that of the tech panel.

Similarly, although tech panel members might be influenced by bias or politics, fans are likely to be far more biased and emotional.

 

[Mathman]

But if you're just working from one angle and that angle isn't any better than the official camera angle, possibly worse, then your call isn't any more reliable than that of the tech panel.

Similarly, although tech panel members might be influenced by bias or politics, fans are likely to be far more biased and emotional.

I think some of these calls are just impossible to make no matter what angle you have. If you look at the you tube wars after a hotly contested competition, people post not only slow motion but individual frames, with protractors overlaid.

One group of vociferous folks say (usually in capital letters), "See, the arrow of the protractor is clearly pointing at 92,4 degrees. An under-rotation."

Another equally dedicated group looks at the same frame and says, "No, the protractor is pointing at 86.3 degrees, because you have to take into account the elevation from which the frame was shot."

For edge calls I have seen photos dead on from the front or back where there is no consensus (and I can't tell myself) whether the blade is tilted ever so slightly to the right or to the left of straight up. (Which direction is "straight up?")

Mao Asada's technique in landing the triple Axel is to reach down for the ice with her toe-pick quite a bit before her rotation is complete (I think all skaters do this -- how could it be otherwise?) When is the exact moment at which her blade touches the ice? This is impossible to tell, either in real time, slow motion, or even looking at individual frames. Has she made contact yet in this picture? How about this one a hundredth of a second later?

To me, watching at home or in the arena, almost every jump looks under-rotated, and almost all Lutzes by ladies look like flutzes. (Reason number 2349 why the ISU has never invited me to be a tech specialist. )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

"CiSe3." (Circular step sequence, level 3)

Does he actually say this as the skater is so busy with his arms, one has no idea what the feet are doing?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't see your point. Are you suggesting they get rid of step sequences? All the turns can be more or less sloppy and more or less difficult outside of figures. All the errors that would make a bad figure are still errors when they're done while freeskating. The level requirements for footwork mean that all the different kinds of turns and moves need to be counted and up verified, that's what the tech panel does.

Your post is well thought out and according to the system you are correct, but on a personal level, I look at the footwork of a skater throughout his program, and often cringe at the footwork sequence since it is a rehashing of school figure turns and altogether too similar to what everyone is doing. The results of the scoring should be the same for all. If, for any reason, there is the unlikely innovation in the steps, the credit belongs to the choreographer moreso than the skater.

Has anyone checked the Levels announced by the TP from one GP to another GP to a Worlds? Did the skater get the same Level throughout? He should have if all TPs are experts.

 

[Mathman]

Does he actually say this as the skater is so busy with his arms, one has no idea what the feet are doing?

It is the tech guys' job to watch the skater's feet.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It is the tech guys' job to watch the skater's feet.

I believe you to be a card carrying Defender of the System with no faith in suggestions which touch upon the unquestionable rules.

Now what does the tech guys do once they have watched the feet? Announce to the judges that the Level is such and such because of his expertise in Musicality? When was the last time a skater displayed tempo with legato and brio? The last time I saw it was with Yagudin and I didn't need the tech boys to tell me that, and neither did the judges.

 

[seniorita]

Is this tempo with legato and brio (sounds like an haute cuisine dish to me ) one of the bullets for footwork levels?We dont need the judges or the specialists to see something special in a skater, but someone has to do the dirty work and give them marks for it.
Until the day we can vote from home!

 

[Violet Bliss]

I believe you to be a card carrying Defender of the System with no faith in suggestions which touch upon the unquestionable rules.

Now what does the tech guys do once they have watched the feet? Announce to the judges that the Level is such and such because of his expertise in Musicality? When was the last time a skater displayed tempo with legato and brio? The last time I saw it was with Yagudin and I didn't need the tech boys to tell me that, and neither did the judges.

I see Mathman as simply a very patient explainer (and gkelly too) and you the card carrying knocker of the system.

Yes the Tech guys watch the feet. It's their job. Musicality is none of their business. Neither are arm movements. They anounce, according to what the feet do, the number of rotations, the edges, and the level according to how many turns, in each direction, etc.

It seems the more the ISU tries to be specific and open, the more there are to get dissected and "Zaprudered". We never could have these scrutinies and arguments under the 6.0. Thank goodness for COP!

Joesitz, what do you do if you have the same level of cynicism about other important things in life. Do you have to personally supervise all elections and count all votes yourself? Go through grading of all exams and papers? Replicate all scientific experiments? Personally audit all tax returns, financial reports, etc. Generally people are prequalified to do their jobs, some of them at very high level of expertise. However, perfection cannot be expected. Our concerns are with gross incompetence and corruption. Don't get me wrong, I have done a lot of expose about the economy and their political manipulations. Got laughed at when I warned about Bin Ladin's plan to attack and got bashed and hated for foretelling in 2004 what would happen in 2008. I also disbelieve FDA and other government agencies and their data. However, there is no way anybody can watch every single second of everybody on their job, be they a bureaucrate, a scientist, a politician or a figure skating judge. To expose a corrupt system, it take cooperative efforts of experts and a systemic approach. A sparking event of course helps immensely as it mobilizes the masses. But insistent suspicions and nitpiking of everything are draining, endless and neither convincing nor effective to bring about change.

Don't get me wrong, again. I appreciate and learn much from knowledgeable posters here and hope the discussion will continue. It's only the decided mind that all officials are guilty and never to be proven innocent that I have a problem with. I'm all for calling out and proving any individual's wrong doings or whistle blowing on the whole system. But we need facts. Yeah, I support Wikileaks and Shadowstat. This declaration is not meant to be political, but to show I'm not a person of blind faith in all officials. But as with most situations in life, we need to choose the battles as well as effective means.

Figure skating is just fun for me, including arguments about it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^ Just chalk me up as the Simon Cowell of Golden Skate. Somebody has to see life through not so rosy glasses. Otherwise there is no reason to debate except for gushing your favorites. Oh joy, Oh rapture!

 

[mskater93]

It is the tech guys' job to watch the skater's feet.

This is why there are three people on the tech panel - each one has certain bullets he/she looks for in the step sequence to determine the level of the sequence. They decide before the event who is looking for which bullets - TC may decide he/she is looking for at least 1/3 of the turns in each direction and body movement while the TS is looking for variety/complexity of turns and step sequence at least 1/2 on one foot and the ATS is looking for number of rotational turns in each direction and quick change of directions.

 

[mskater93]

Your post is well thought out and according to the system you are correct, but on a personal level, I look at the footwork of a skater throughout his program, and often cringe at the footwork sequence since it is a rehashing of school figure turns and altogether too similar to what everyone is doing. The results of the scoring should be the same for all. If, for any reason, there is the unlikely innovation in the steps, the credit belongs to the choreographer moreso than the skater.

Has anyone checked the Levels announced by the TP from one GP to another GP to a Worlds? Did the skater get the same Level throughout? He should have if all TPs are experts.

The step sequence is not a rehash of school figures, it is a matter of putting the turns and steps together to be coherent (not that most step sequences are coherent under IJS) and doing a forward rocker CCW followed immediately on the same foot by a back CW counter is not as easy as doing school figures in a lot of respects because you have time to orient yourself properly for your body to do the turn on the figure, but if you are changing from one to the next that quickly, it's a lot harder (I have an easier time with the counters in the Novice moves in the field pattern than I do as counter, rocker, cross, toe turn, bracket in quick sequence because I can't rotate turn and then counter rotate in the footwork for the turns like I can if I do rotate, counter, hold, cross behind - hold, cross behind - hold, rotate, counter, hold or even when my coaches have me do the figure counter pattern).

The levels called by the tech panel will not necessarily be the same for each skater across a season because there are times when skaters get ahead of themselves and don't skate the step sequence as well as they did the competition before (due to nerves or excitement or whatever) and the complexity/variety of turns changes because instead of doing a counter, a skater rotates, changes edge and does a three turn instead or they put their foot down when approaching a turn or immediately after as a balance check and the tech panel can't count it as it was intended. Also, perhaps they are a little stiff and what WAS full body movement becomes modest body movement. Also, if a skater falls in a step sequence, I believe the level has to be dropped.

 

[chuckm]

Here are some judges’ marks from a recent competition for the same skater:

3A+2T (+1.14) 0 1 1 2 2 1 0 1 2
3A (-1.86) -1 -2 -2 -3 0 -2 -2 -2 -2
3F+3T (-0.10) -1 1 0 0 2 -1- 0 -1 0

Markings like these are not uncommon. If you add all the GOE marks from the same judge, the cumulative results across the judges for the same skater can be appalling. One judge will mark the skater +15 cumulatively and another will mark that same skater a cumulative -8.

If you think it's only the PCS that is subjective, think again. Judges manipulate BOTH marks to engineer the placements they want.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^^^ Just chalk me up as the Simon Cowell of Golden Skate. Somebody has to see life through not so rosy glasses. Otherwise there is no reason to debate except for gushing your favorites. Oh joy, Oh rapture!

I'm just for discussing what did happen and what are likely to happen rather than bringing up one by one a million and one ways the officials may do wrong due to human and environmental factors.

What if some lady lifts her top and the whole tech panel gets distracted?

What if a judge is tone deaf?

What if the tech guy can't count to 5?

What if the tech gal is secretly dating a skater and has had a big fight to apologize for?

What if a tech guy is not clear about his job and watches the arms instead of the feet? etc. etc.

Easy question: Should Sheldon Cooper be a single skater, pair skater, a tech guy or a judge? All wrong answers yield hilarious scenarios!

 

[seniorita]

I
Easy question: Should Sheldon Cooper be a single skater, pair skater, a tech guy or a judge? All wrong answers yield hilarious scenarios!

Is there a right answer on this??

 

[Violet Bliss]

Is there a right answer on this??

OK, hilarity is a given in any role but there is one he could perform quite well, if given veto power, and/or enough time to reason and condescend. (Some choises just got crossed out right there, or we may argue that he would veto, argue, and condescend in any role. )

 

[seniorita]

I would say tech guy, he has great observation ability and quickness and could do the job of three and figure out a level immediately or a jumb, plus he can count up to 5
Or a judge, he can learn all the CoP bible by heart and can scrunitize every move, I would say he would give the most precise pcs ever!

 

[Mathman]

Has anyone checked the Levels announced by the TP from one GP to another GP to a Worlds? Did the skater get the same Level throughout? He should have if all TPs are experts.

Here are the calls for step sequences for the GP finalists in mens and ladies. The order is, the first GP event, the 2nd GP event, and the finals.

Chan SlSt3 SlSt3 SlSt3
Kozuka SeSt3 SeSt3 SeSt3
Oda CiSt2 CiSt2 CiSt2
Verner CiSt3 CiSt3 CiSt3
Amodio CiSt2 CiSt3 CiSt2
Takahashi CiSt2 CiSt4 CiSt4

Ando SlSt2 SlSt3 SlSt3
Murakami SlSt3 SlSt3 SlSt3
Czisny CiSt2 CiSt2 CiSt2
Kostner SlSt3 SlSt3 SlSt3
Suzuki SlSt2 SlSt3 SlSt3
Flatt SlSt2 SlSt3 SlSt2

Pretty close match across the board. The is a slight tendency for skaters to work on their footwork and try to raise the level as the season progresses. Takahashi mentioned explicitly that he worked hard after NHK to get his footwork up to par, and it paid off at Skate America.

By the way, it is practically impossible to get a level four in footwork, so Daisuke is to be applauded for his marks at Skate America and the Grand Prix Fibal.

We'll see what happens at Worlds.

By the way, if you want to score along with the technical specialists, you can check out Takahashi's two performances, NHK and Skate America, on you tube and see whether or not you agree with the technical panel that he presented greater variety and complexity of steps at Skate America.