Ashley Wagner disappointed with Sochi support

[KJGL]

Let's be clear: NO ONE has even come close to matching the success of Cohen/SHughes/Lipinski let alone MK since 2006.

There have been flashes of hope but no one has had any staying power whatsoever. From Flatt to Czisny to Wagner, all have had decent careers but fall way short of traditional US women's success. No world or Olympic medals (individual)...limited GP success...and even their best efforts fall short of a podium finish.

Gold is probably showing the most promise of any US woman since Kwan/Cohen...she needs to take that next step and get onto that world podium. As for Wagner - her efforts are commendable but she's just not good enough to truly contend on the world scene unless it's meltdown day (which has yet to happen). She will forever be the "almost" girl.

Agree we've been in a years-long drought in terms of results and well short of our traditional success.

To me it looks like the judges are taking a flyer on Ashley. She still has a shot--her Olympic combined score was within a point of her personal best combined score, so they're not leaving her at the side of the road just yet. But wow, they could not have been clearer that they don't share Ashley's and the USFSA's opinion that staying on her feet was enough to validate her. Even if you take the three skaters who fell and still finished ahead of her out of the mix entirely, she still finished 23 points off the podium. So they want to see her bring the difficulty in her programs up to the level of the skaters in front of her and they want her to clear up her technique issues. But they've got her combined score in a holding pattern so hopefully that means that if she ante's up, they'll give her the scores.

 

[KJGL]

It's not mutually exclusive to feel "gypped" (poor choice of words, but that's another matter) on how she, herself, was scored and to call for better transparency in the judging system. She is probably aware of the USFSA move and her comments only AFFIRM that USFSA is doing the right thing in addressing this issue.

Also I will go back an point out again that SHE probably did not bring up these things but rather was ASKED by the media about her thoughts regarding these matter. The way people were acting, you thought she was on a 20-date-tour to whine about the judging.

People may be concerned about the unintended consequences of her calling out the judges. I know that's my concern. She could take a scoring hit for her candor, which would be her risk to take if it were only about her. But it's also about the team and conceivably Ashley sliding further down the top 10 could mean the difference between a 3 woman team and a 2 woman team.

 

[Mrs. P]

People may be concerned about the unintended consequences of her calling out the judges. I know that's my concern. She could take a scoring hit for her candor, which would be her risk to take if it were only about her. But it's also about the team and conceivably Ashley sliding further down the top 10 could mean the difference between a 3 woman team and a 2 woman team.

I suppose, but as I said earlier in the thread, if that happens, then it only affirms the need for accountability and transparency. Judges shouldn't be able to get away with holding grudges anonymously. Really they shouldn't hold grudges at all.

There is a case to say that Ashley could have been more diplomatic (while remaining straight forward) about things and perhaps learn a bit more political maneuvering.

 

[KJGL]

I suppose, but as I said earlier in the thread, if that happens, then it only affirms the need for accountability and transparency. Judges shouldn't be able to get away with holding grudges anonymously. Really they shouldn't hold grudges at all.

There is a case to say that Ashley could have been more diplomatic (while remaining straight forward) about things and perhaps learn a bit more political maneuvering.

Definitely agree they shouldn't hold grudges and also agree there should be transparency in the judging. But as long as things are the way they are, none of these individual skaters should be giving judges any reason to give fewer points than they could. There's a range, and as long as there are no outliers it's entirely possible for the judges to score at the low end of the range without inquiry, especially if it doesn't affect the podium.

 

[R.D.]

Her blog comments seem to walk back her initial comments quite a bit. For example she originally said she felt gypped.

I'm sure she still does. She's dialed it back since, sure...but that really seemed to be her raw emotions coming out.

In an Access Hollywood interview later, when asked directly, she said that was a moment right after her program where she was feeling "angry". She expressed frustration with her own scores (IIRC) but said that the skaters placed in the top 3 were correct.

 

[slutskayafann]

Most of the time I like her outspokenness, but her comment about skaters with falls finishing ahead of her rang kind of hollow in light of the fact that she fell in her nationals lp and was still placed on the Olympic team instead of Mirai who skated clean (I agree with Ashley being selected for the team, incidentally).

What about the men. The men free was a horrible day, both Gold and Silver fell!

 

[KJGL]

I'm sure she still does. She's dialed it back since, sure...but that really seemed to be her raw emotions coming out.

In an Access Hollywood interview later, when asked directly, she said that was a moment right after her program where she was feeling "angry". She expressed frustration with her own scores (IIRC) but said that the skaters placed in the top 3 were correct.

Her reaction to her program was interesting. When her music finished, the first words out of Johnny Weir's mouth were "well that wasn't the skate she wanted," while Ashley was down on the ice pumping her fist and punching the air in triumph. Tara likewise indicated there were errors that the judges would see. Sasha Cohen responded to a tweet that questioned Ashley's score by saying there were technical problems and that's why the score was low. None of them seemed to see that skate the same way Ashley did.

So if you're right and she still thinks she was gypped, that may not bode well for her chances of moving back up the ranks. The first step to fixing a problem is realizing you have one, and she seems to think her only problem was with the judges.

I'd just like to see the team get past Worlds with the three-woman team still in play for next year. I feel the same way you do about our tradition in skating (this is my 6th decade as a lover of figure skating) and after seeing the Russians get their team back on track in a single Olympic cycle, I'm hoping we'll be able to do the same. The guys, too. There's a lot of talent there.

 

[R.D.]

Her reaction to her program was interesting. When her music finished, the first words out of Johnny Weir's mouth were "well that wasn't the skate she wanted," while Ashley was down on the ice pumping her fist and punching the air in triumph. Tara likewise indicated there were errors that the judges would see. Sasha Cohen responded to a tweet that questioned Ashley's score by saying there were technical problems and that's why the score was low. None of them seemed to see that skate the same way Ashley did.

Seeing it from her perspective, she's probably thrilled she stayed on her feet TBH. She's actually had a bit of a shaky season up to this point. Unfortunately however, it was not enough to simply stand up. She still has a lot of work to do to clean up those jumps and with the necessary effort, it's doable.

I think Wagner's score was OK (maybe a tad on the low end). I did take issue with some of the other scores being too high, though. That's the real problem.

So if you're right and she still thinks she was gypped, that may not bode well for her chances of moving back up the ranks. The first step to fixing a problem is realizing you have one, and she seems to think her only problem was with the judges.

I mentioned this very issue a while back. I do hope she realizes her issues, but IMHO (most of) her gripes with the scoring ARE legit. Something seriously odd was going on with the judging in Sochi, from the team event onward. I mean, forget the Russians for a sec - Gold got a 129 for a clean effort in the team FS, only to be pushed up to 136 in the individual event with a fall? Huh?

I'd just like to see the team get past Worlds with the three-woman team still in play for next year. I feel the same way you do about our tradition in skating (this is my 6th decade as a lover of figure skating) and after seeing the Russians get their team back on track in a single Olympic cycle, I'm hoping we'll be able to do the same. The guys, too. There's a lot of talent there.

Yes, keeping 3 spots is key, but I think we've a strong US team. Even if you delete Wagner, Gold's 4th and Edmunds' 9th would have (barely) kept 3 berths for 2015. I think there will be a bit more pressure on Gold this time around as the top American in the field while Wagner and/or Edmunds just need to stay in mid to lower top 10 in order to help her out.

2015 Nationals could be interesting because with the burden of defending a title finally lifted off Wagner's shoulders, will she do better there again? And how will Gold handle being in said position?

 

[Scovies]

Seeing it from her perspective, she's probably thrilled she stayed on her feet TBH. She's actually had a bit of a shaky season up to this point.

There's that, but I think she was also really happy to get through a new (well, new/old) program that she'd been working on for about a month. I remember seeing a journalist tweet that her first run-throughs of it in Sochi were really rough.

Ashley's taken a lot of flak for her comments, but the funny thing is, I have a personal story about how she was almost exactly right in how casual fans might feel after seeing the results. I watched the primetime broadcast at my parents' house after already seeing the live feed earlier that day. My father, who doesn't care about figure skating whatsoever, really liked Ashley's program and didn't understand her score in relation to Yulia or the other top women -- he thought the medalists were better, but didn't understand the massive point differences. To be fair, his favorite programs aren't the most lyrical ones, but he liked Ashley's attack and personality and thought her jumps were big.

(If anyone's curious: he found Yulia and Gracie talented but boring, thought Mao was great, didn't care for Carolina but liked her jumps, enjoyed Adelina, and declared "it's not even close" after Yuna skated. He was shocked she didn't win.)

I also don't think Ashley was wrong about her scores. Taken in a vacuum, I'd call them accurate. Given the inflation of other skaters in the competition, I found them a bit low.

Back on topic, I like Ashley. She's not the most talented skater in the world but makes the most with what she has, and I like that she actually answers questions and speaks her mind, even if I don't always agree with her. Canned answers in interviews are boring. Her saying "gypped" was unfortunate, but I'm willing to bet she has no idea about the etymology of the word. I didn't learn that it referred to gypsies/Romani people until I was in my mid-20s, and Romani culture isn't prevalent in the U.S. at all.

 

[KJGL]

>>I mentioned this very issue a while back. I do hope she realizes her issues, but IMHO (most of) her gripes with the scoring ARE legit. Something seriously odd was going on with the judging in Sochi, from the team event onward. I mean, forget the Russians for a sec - Gold got a 129 for a clean effort in the team FS, only to be pushed up to 136 in the individual event with a fall? Huh?<<

R.D.--ack, I wish I knew how to make the selective quote thingy work, but I don't (I tried!)

But to your point about Gracie's score, that's really interesting and I hadn't even noticed it. You said to forget the Russians (for a sec), but I'm wondering if Gracie's 136 might have had something to do with the 135 they gave to Lipnitskaya for a program that had 2 falls. If that's the case, then taken in that context it's probably a good thing that the judges didn't feel they could simply throw Gracie over the side. Much as they like Lipnitskaya, they didn't feel they could move her past Gracie after those two falls. Maybe conscience, maybe a sense they'd be pushing the Lipnitskaya envelope too far, hard to say. LOL.

Olympic judges always seem to do a little stack-ranking for the new four year cycle in their placements. Nothing carved in stone, or even written in ink, more like a pencil sketch of how they see the "new podium" based on who they've seen and who they know to be "staying in". And as long as they're not messing with the Olympic podium to make their statement, it's not terrible that they do this.

So I agree there's pressure on Gracie, not only as national champion but because the international judges appear to have her lined up for the world podium.

Also agree the 2015 Nationals are going to be interesting. Yes, because of Ashley, Gracie, and Polina, and also because there are other beautiful skaters waiting in the wings. We'll get to see a little more of how they compete. Also Mirai--at 20 she could have another Olympic cycle in her, so it will be interesting to see if she can recover from a brutal disappointment and take her comeback to the next level.

 

[slider11]

Ashley needs some tough love and reality therapy from a coach/confidente. She lives in this world of "I'm the best and the rest just don't see it but they'll come around if I remind them enough." I don't think that's Rafael's strong suit; I think he'd probably like to put duct tape over her mouth but figures that's someone else's job. I also think Ashley played her one "mulligan" with the USFSA by being named to the Olympic team and unless her skating takes the next step with overall consistent content and in-depth artistry, she will be back to being the "almost" girl. Gracie has a secure hold on positive national and international ratings and gets it that she now needs to refine and expand on those positive qualities. Paulina came through the OG very well and has a promising future. Then there's Mirai, Agnes, Samantha, Courtney and a host of others waiting and hopefully working for their chance to be among the elite 2-3 US ladies. Worlds will speak volumes about Ashley. For her sake, I hope she speaks with her skates and not her mouth.

 

[ingofan1]

Why is it that Ashley needs to 'shut up already" she is only expressing what the USFSA is going to propose themselves.She is only saying what everyone is thinking.What is this the 1950's she is to be quite and know her place.The crowds at the olympics there whole post about how horrible the crowds yet she is wrong to say anything about that. Skating is full people who are afraid express their opinions on anything.Ashley was a questions ans she answered them about the judging about the crowds.

 

[slider11]

If Ashley wants to be a commentator or journalist communicating about the state of figure skating then she should keep talking. If she wants to be a skater and put her full energy and attention to that, then she needs to leave this analysis to others. Had she won a medal or scored higher overall, we wouldn't hear this negativity from her. The world of figure skating would be perfect! You can't have it both ways. It's not that she can't have opinions or thoughts but these ideas are clearly tainted by how SHE is being judged. There is no objectivity. If you want to be a competitor put your opinions on the ice and write your book later.

 

[R.D.]

Actually, that's a valid point - as an active skater, she (still) has a stake in the outcome and thus cannot claim to be objective.

 

[desertskates]

There's that, but I think she was also really happy to get through a new (well, new/old) program that she'd been working on for about a month. I remember seeing a journalist tweet that her first run-throughs of it in Sochi were really rough.

Ashley's taken a lot of flak for her comments, but the funny thing is, I have a personal story about how she was almost exactly right in how casual fans might feel after seeing the results. I watched the primetime broadcast at my parents' house after already seeing the live feed earlier that day. My father, who doesn't care about figure skating whatsoever, really liked Ashley's program and didn't understand her score in relation to Yulia or the other top women -- he thought the medalists were better, but didn't understand the massive point differences. To be fair, his favorite programs aren't the most lyrical ones, but he liked Ashley's attack and personality and thought her jumps were big.

(If anyone's curious: he found Yulia and Gracie talented but boring, thought Mao was great, didn't care for Carolina but liked her jumps, enjoyed Adelina, and declared "it's not even close" after Yuna skated. He was shocked she didn't win.)

I also don't think Ashley was wrong about her scores. Taken in a vacuum, I'd call them accurate. Given the inflation of other skaters in the competition, I found them a bit low.

Back on topic, I like Ashley. She's not the most talented skater in the world but makes the most with what she has, and I like that she actually answers questions and speaks her mind, even if I don't always agree with her. Canned answers in interviews are boring. Her saying "gypped" was unfortunate, but I'm willing to bet she has no idea about the etymology of the word. I didn't learn that it referred to gypsies/Romani people until I was in my mid-20s, and Romani culture isn't prevalent in the U.S. at all.

I couldn't have said this any better myself. And it is unfortunate that the word "gypped" came up. I never knew where the word came from until I was 30. Also, I watched with my husband who is mildly interested in Olympic skating. He did not understand at all. His thought was that Ashley should have been fourth, maybe 5th behind Mao (triple axel), because at no point did she sit on her bum. At least now he's interested in Worlds to see if the ripped off girl gets a fair shake. That's what it looks like to a casual observer.
And for her celebration at the end--I think she was thrilled to have no major mistakes after that horrible nationals. She was probably relieved and proud of herself and she should have been.

 

[yelyoh]

Funny I sort of polled my mother and a number of friends are only into watching skating at the Olys. Well my mom does watch it more often. The general consensus was shock that Yuna did not win and that Adelina did. People were also very impressed with Mao and think she should have been on the podium also. They don't understand the scoring system at all but they respond. Those who are political like Ashley's honesty and her reactions in the kiss and cry.

 

[millie]

The problem that I have with Ashley is she is complaining about skaters failing. To my understanding, hasn't Ashley herself been on her bum quite a few times in competitions. She has selective memory.

 

[Mrs. P]

The problem that I have with Ashley is she is complaining about skaters failing. To my understanding, hasn't Ashley herself been on her bum quite a few times in competitions. She has selective memory.

She's not complaining about skaters falling, she's complaining about how falls are scored.

When she fell, she was scored accordingly. At Nationals, she DID finish behind Gracie, Polina, Mirai and Samantha Cesario in the FS.

At GPF, she lost several points from her errors there (including a fall) and was only on the podium because Adelina imploded.

The fact that she was selected for the Olympic team over Mirai has nothing to do with the actual scoring at Nationals.

 

[R.D.]

But to your point about Gracie's score, that's really interesting and I hadn't even noticed it. You said to forget the Russians (for a sec), but I'm wondering if Gracie's 136 might have had something to do with the 135 they gave to Lipnitskaya for a program that had 2 falls. If that's the case, then taken in that context it's probably a good thing that the judges didn't feel they could simply throw Gracie over the side. Much as they like Lipnitskaya, they didn't feel they could move her past Gracie after those two falls. Maybe conscience, maybe a sense they'd be pushing the Lipnitskaya envelope too far, hard to say. LOL.

That's a thought...

Still, I don't think this was a fair competition for all and that's the heart of this whole issue. Even if the results are not changed or there is no formal investigation, if this doesn't spur another big change, there is no hope left whatsoever.

Also agree the 2015 Nationals are going to be interesting. Yes, because of Ashley, Gracie, and Polina, and also because there are other beautiful skaters waiting in the wings. We'll get to see a little more of how they compete. Also Mirai--at 20 she could have another Olympic cycle in her, so it will be interesting to see if she can recover from a brutal disappointment and take her comeback to the next level.

Oh yeah, there is still Nagasu. But she essentially has some even bigger issues to fix than Wagner does if she wants to contend again.

 

[exNyer]

The crowd in Sochi was pretty awful, that's for sure, but does anyone recall the crowd at the Women's Gymnastics Final in Atlanta? Loud?
Partisan? Annoying? Remember Horkina in tears? Plus, I'm convinced that 75% of any Olympic audience cares (and knows) little or nothing about what they're watching. They just wanted to go to the Olympics.

75% sounds generous. I would guess 5% figure skating knowledgable +95% premiere winter Olympic event ticket holders.
The bigger the competition the larger percentage of those who don't know.
AFA the cheers for Mao falling.. I am guessing a large vocal group of South Koreans contributed.

Question: for anyone who actually saw the competition in the arena.. Were Kim /Kostner slow??; The only commentary I have access to is Scott & Sandra.