Czisny -- Another Nikodinov?

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
Michelle could beat Irina with scores like 5.7, 5.9 to 5.8, 5.8.

But Alissa cannot beat Rachael with 5.2, 5.8 to 5.8, 5.6.

True but you are dreaming if you think Rachael would get 5.6 to Alissa's 5.8 on the artistic mark. I would score this way
Alissa - 5.5 and 5.8 (maybe 5.9)

Rachael 5.7 and 5.5

mm, Rachael skates too slow to get top tech marks, her technique on certain elements is average at best, and she is nowhere near Alissa in presentation.
Anyway - don't mean to argue about it, and thanks again for the previous explanation( which I know is good - even if I bother to argue

)
(and don't forget Caroline clobbered Rachael at 4CC and beat her at WTT) so international judges see something missing from Rachael's skating that US judges do not see.
And I am no judge - only a fan.

R.D. · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
(and don't forget Caroline clobbered Rachael at 4CC and beat her at WTT) so international judges see something missing from Rachael's skating that US judges do not see.
And I am no judge - only a fan.

perhaps but did Rachel perform the same way at WTT than at Nationals? Don't forget that a completely clean performance by Flatt there wasn't enough to beat 4 triples, a fall, and an overall average program from Alyssa.

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Red Dog said:
perhaps but did Rachel perform the same way at WTT than at Nationals? Don't forget that a completely clean performance by Flatt there wasn't enough to beat 4 triples, a fall, and an overall average program from Alyssa.

Yes, I remember. That is why I asked why so many thought it was controversial.

Getting back to 6.0 - I don't see how Rachael would score so high. You are marking her like Irina - no way is Rachael Irina's equal yet on the first tech score. If Irina was getting 5.8's then Rachael, would be a few points lower, even when she skated clean. Her slower skating is just not in the same league with Irina nor are her jumps as big or as good. Otherwise, when Caroline drops 6-7 triples she would have to get the same high score - but her jumps are nowhere as good as Irina's were either.
We need some consistency here (but not from me :laugh:

).
In the second/presentaion score Michelle always scored very high. I would say from what I see that the beauty of Alissa's skating is closer top Michelle's artistry - than Rachael's technique is closer to Irina. That is why I say Alissa would score higher on 6.0 than Rachael. And go back and look - Michelle could fall and still get 5.5 to 5.7 on her first scores. It happened all the time. The lesser skaters would fall and get the 5.2's. Never a Kat, Kristi, Oksana, etc.

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
Only one thing puzzles me then - how do you explain that Irina didn't win eveytime she stepped on the ice in the old 6.0 era. She basically was the best jumper of her era and Michelle beat her through better artistry. Am I wrong about that as well?
Towards the end of her career, when Irina had greatly improved her presentation and artistry is when she began beating Michelle.

PS.

After I wrote my answer I decided to try to look up some facts.

What is easy to forget is that Michelle was a dominant jumper and all-round technical skater in her own right. I wouldn't say at all that Irina had the edge on the first mark.

Here are the median scores, tech first, then presentation, for the last few Worlds that were judged under 6.0.

2004.

Michelle 5.7, 5.9.
Irina 5.0, 5.45

Michelle wins on both marks.

2003

Michelle 5.8, 5,9
Irina did not skate

2002

Irina 5.8, 5.9
Michelle 5.7, 5.8

Irina won on both marks.

2001

Michelle 5.8, 5.9
Irina 5.8, 5.8

Tied in tech, Michelle wins on second mark.

2000.

I couldn't find the judges' scores, but Michelle did 7 triples including a triple-triple. I am pretty sure she won on both marks.

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
PS. After I wrote my answer I decided to try to look up some facts. What is easy to forget is that Michelle was a dominant jumper and all-round technical skater in her own right. I wouldn't say at all that Irina had the edge on the first mark.
QUOTE]

Why do I read that Irina beat Michelle 7 of the last 9 times they competed against each other?
Would be fun to see those scores as well (but I don't want to work you too hard on a holiday )
PS - my comparison was meant to be between Irina and Rachael so stop cheating

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
(and don't forget Caroline clobbered Rachael at 4CC and beat her at WTT) so international judges see something missing from Rachael's skating that US judges do not see.

Not really. The international judges throughout the season scored Rachael about the same as the U.S. judges did.

But the international judges gave Alissa about ten points lower on the program component scores that the U.S. judges did.

This is the part that made Alissa's win controversial, not what might have happened under 6.0 judging. The U.S. judges gve her way higher presentation marks than she ever gets by international standards, whereas Racahels were about the same.

Meanwhile, Caroline got lower marks in the U.S. than internationally, leading to all the complaints that the USFSA is picking on her.

What is needed is a judging system that is consitent from one contest to another. (Probably impossible in any judged sport.)

R.D. · Jul 4, 2009

What is needed is a judging system that is consitent [sic] from one contest to another. (Probably impossible in any judged sport.)

Human nature makes such a feat theoretically impossible. Even if the same judges judged every event, you'd have at least SOME inconsistency. Let alone having different judges at every event. Results and scores are obviously going to vary by some degree.

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
Why do I read that Irina beat Michelle 7 of the last 9 times they competed against each other?

That's a good question! If I were a figure skating judge, I would have Michelle over Irina on the second mark every time.

But the judges did not always agree with me. Go figure.

One factor was that Irina saved her best skating for last, while after 2003 Michelle was increasigly hobbled by her deteriorating hip situation.

Another factor was that Irina, although not as graceful as Michelle, did have great speed, power and pizzazz, which served her well on the second mark.

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
That's a good question! If I were a figure skating judge, I would have Michelle over Irina on the second mark every time.

But the judges did not always agree with me. Go figure.

One factor was that Irina saved her best skating for last, while after 2003 Michelle was increasigly hobbled by her deteriorating hip situation.

Another factor was that Irina, although not as graceful as Michelle, did have great speed, power and pizzazz, which served her well on the second mark.

So that is part of my point. Irina had it. Does Rachael have Irina's speed, power and pizazz?????????
Rachael would not score as high in her first mark or second mark as Irina in 6.0Maybe someday - maybe even this year. But not so far.
Alissa, like Michelle was made more for 6.0. Where as Michelle in her prime was a marvelous technical skater, Irina had more speed and power. Under CoP Irina would have scored higher than she did under 6.0. Each good jump Michelle made, under CoP would have been scored according to it's height, ice coverage, speed into entry, blah, bah. Irina had that. Almost every good jump Irina ever did would have outscored Michelle under CoP. Or many of them.
Yuna scores higher than Rachael on her jumps. Irina would score higher than Michelle. Cop changes everything. Michelle's spirals would be worht points in CoP. Under 6.0 they dazzled and won her competitions against bigger jumpers.
I say Alissa would benefit greatly under 6.0 because artistry was rewarded in a manner totally unrelated to CoP. The judges typically placed the better all around skater ahead of the skater who only had jumps. Rachael doesn't have the speed or power or big jumps to beat a skater as artistic as Alissa under 6.0

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
Does Rachael have Irina's speed, power and pizazz?

Well, fortunately for Rachael she does not have to compete against Irina. But what about Alissa?

This is how I see it.

If Alissa skates well she can beat Rachael.

If Alissa does not skate well she cannot beat Rachael.

At U.S. Nationals, in the short program Alissa skated well and outscored Rachael by a considerable margin.

In the long program, Alissa did not skate well and she finished behind Rachael in that part of the competition. I think those placements would have been the same under any judging system.

I do not really see anything controversial about any of that.

R.D. · Jul 4, 2009

And this is how I see it:

Nationally, Rachel should worry about Alyssa.

Internationally, Alyssa will dig her own grave, anyway, so no point.

Frankly, I do think Alyssa got quite lucky in more ways than one. This is not to say she didn't deserve her US championship but the stars had to align a certain way and it seems they did.

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
Well, fortunately for Rachael she does not have to compete against Irina. But what about Alissa?

This is how I see it.

If Alissa skates well she can beat Rachael.

If Alissa does not skate well she cannot beat Rachael.

At U.S. Nationals, in the short program Alissa skated well and outscored Rachael by a considerable margin.

In the long program, Alissa did not skate well and she finished behind Rachael in that part of the competition. I think those placements would have been the same under any judging system.

I do not really see anything controversial about any of that.

Very good logic and I agree based on that one competition. I was speaking in a more general manner, based on a year or two's worth of competitons. I also think that you might admit that Alissa, under 6.0 could make her choreo "super 6.0 friendly." I don't think Rachael could at this point.
Anyway, it will never happen - so happy 4th of July and thanks for sharing your views and expertise.

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
I also think that you might admit that Alissa, under 6.0 could make her choreo "super 6.0 friendly."

I do admit that gladly. But I think she can make her choreography, interpretation and performance/execution "super CoP friendly" as well.

By the way, if you are up for a good conspiracy theory, here's one.

You mentioned that Irina beat Michelle seven of the last nine times they competed against each other. Three of those seven victories were at the Grand Prix finals in 1999-2000, 2000-2001, and 2001-2002. IIRC, all three results were questionable, especially the last, at which Michelle landed six clean triples to Irina's four.

Michelle won Worlds in 2000, 2001, and she was supposed to win the 2002 Olympics but it didn't work out that way.

So the conspiracy theory is, everything was fixed from the beginning. They would give Kween Michelle the two world championships and the Olympic gold medal, and as a consolation prize they would give the good soldier, Irina, the Grand Prix finals each of those years.

Red Dog said:
Internationally, Alissa will dig her own grave, anyway, so no point.

I don't think we can count on Alissa messing up. She is too inconsistent.

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
I don't think we can count on Alissa messing up. She is too inconsistent.

Good one, and how ironic. I was curious to see if any Alissa supporters might step up - but maybe it is the holiday - or they have lost faith.
Whatever - I would just say that skaters like Alissa are part of the reason I like figure skating so much. And I like Rachael too and realize she is much younger than Alissa.
The Russian Federation would never have agreed to such a raw deal for Irina - unless they were focusing on consolidating their men's chances. In which case we are just as dirty as the Russians for agreeing to such a farce.

Mathman · Jul 4, 2009

janetfan said:
I was curious to see if any Alissa supporters might step up - but maybe it is the holiday - or they have lost faith.

Or they are afraid of investing their emotions and having their heart broken.

I have been privileged to see Alissa skate at various functions in the Detroit area for many years, going back to when she and her sister Amber were in novices. Last month she brought the house down with a technically flawless and artistically exhilarating performance at the Detroit Skating Club show. I hope she skates at Skate Detroit, coming up on July 21.

I also got to see her (live) at her best at Skate America in Atlantic City in 2005. Sustituting for Michelle, she won the long program and finished second overall (to Elena Sokolova) -- then the next week she went off to Skate Canada, substituting for Sasha, and won, over Rochette.

Here is her picture on the Detroit Skating Club site (hit "previous" under the picture until it goes to picture #!.) :love:

http://www.dscclub.com/

Here are some more (first gallery).

http://www.dscclub.com/photos/gallery/

Also, the same page (last gallery) has some pictures of the last time Michelle came by the club (Tara's old club, by the way.

)

janetfan · Jul 4, 2009

Mathman said:
Or they are afraid of investing their emotions and having their heart broken.

I have been privileged to see Alissa skate at various functions in the Detroit area for many years, going back to when she and her sister Amber were in novices. Last month she brought the house down with a technically flawless and artistically exhilarating performance at the Detroit Skating Club show. I hope she skates at Skate Detroit, coming up on July 21.

Thanks for the pics. My favorite is the one with her coach hugging her - yea, yea, a bit sentimental, but it was a special moment for both of them.

Hearts broken? I thought that was Michelle and Sasha's job.

TtonyV7 · Jul 5, 2009

Wow,

I was hoping that I wouldn't another can of worms regarding US Nationals again!

Back to Nikodinov and Czisny....

AliasJohnDoe · Jul 5, 2009

Besides Alissa's spins/spirals/edging/artisrty, she is basically the only US lady who has a "pure" lutz......the hardest jump among the US ladies. Alissa never gets an edge call on her lutz. Caroline gets a lutz edge call about 9 out of 10 times. Rachel about 5 out of 10 times. Alissa's lutz is what makes her stand out among the top US ladies. A "pure" lutz makes me swoon.

HCOSurfer · Jul 5, 2009

AliasJohnDoe said:
Besides Alissa's spins/spirals/edging/artisrty, she is basically the only US lady who has a "pure" lutz......the hardest jump among the US ladies. Alissa never gets an edge call on her lutz. Caroline gets a lutz edge call about 9 out of 10 times. Rachel about 5 out of 10 times. Alissa's lutz is what makes her stand out among the top US ladies. A "pure" lutz makes me swoon.

Yes, but Alissa doesn't have a "pure" flip.

Czisny -- Another Nikodinov?

janetfan

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