Performance/Execution mark. Should it be changed?

I have some thoughts and questions concerning Performance/Execution and Choregraphy/Interpretation. Maybe I will get some responses, especially from JudgeJoe?

Watching every competitive performance are the Technical and Judging Panels, thousands (?) of spectators, and millions of TV viewers. In a way they are all judges, many a non official judge on a self-determined level of importance. The judges decide the marks and placements, and the skaters' choreographies are carefully designed to appeal to them. As actors know very well, stage and movie/TV performances are very different arts. On competition ice, as on stage, skaters are watched at a distance. They need strong makeup so their features and expressions wouldn't be lost, and the whole body movements are important to project emotions, character, and musical interpretation, etc. Some skaters even place extreme importance on extreme costumes so nobody could miss them! The judges and the spectators view the skater and his/her performance as a whole, in full, in context as it happens on a large ice surface. They feel the energy and the impact of the skater's charimas directly. Then there are worldwide fans watching the performance on their TV and computer screens, some of them firmly believing in their true and ultimate judgment. They are the furthest from the action but they get the most intimate close-ups - facial expressions, costume details, and all the minute movements, while missing aspects such as speed and ice coverage. They may also be more affected by a skater's photogenic good looks or lack thereof and they have different perspectives, criteria, values and opinions from the judges and from each other. It seems many online "judges" demand a skater to perform and connect to them. Assuming skaters do perform for, and often flirt with, the judges, is it possible to simultaneously project and connect to both the arena audience and TV viewers? The fans don't determine the competition outcomes but they are very important to the sport. I wonder how much impact the mass viewers have or should have on the sport, including judging. The COP system is devised to set a tight standard for judges to follow and the judges have been and are still being educated. It is also meant to assure the fans of fairness and prevention of corruption. Yet they have been left on their own to figure out the new and complex judging system and are just as jaded in the confusion. Should the sport's PTB adjust the standard to please them or should they attempt to educate fans to better understand this highly technical yet artistic sport? But can and should the fans be trained to view skating through the COP lens, without downgrading their enjoyment? Do they want to be? And how? Obviously TV commentators play an important role but do they too need education and guidelines? There are many different styles of commentating. The Chinese commentator on COC, for example, gave background information on the upcoming competitor, kept silent through the performance, then commented on the elements replayed while explaining the scoring system in detail. Extremely educational about the sport and COP. OTOH, I appreciate Kurt Browning et al on Canadian TV with their expert opinions and insights. In any field, the highest level of performing and/or observation ability become intuitive. Experts like Browning notice subtle details to tell the immediate outcome before it becomes obvious. I imagine the really good judges to be accurately intuitive as well. Many many fine points are absorbed and integrated so a glimpse tells all. Analysis is no more consciously required in execution or decision but is good for explanation when required. However, guidelines, as well as a whole panel of nine judges, are there to assure a less individually subjective standard.

Interpretation has been debated so much with polaristic views. I'd like to know what the judges' perspectives are. Nowadays, besides Latin danse music, most skating music selections are from movies and Broadway with stories attached. From my limited recollection, skating to a theme was not a tradition. Browning's Casa Blanca was ground breaking and the Duchesnays pioneered thematic Ice Dancing. Online fans have voiced different demands and criticisms so I wonder if they think a skater should skate to the music, or portray a character, or tell a story? Which is more important if not all three are achievable? Should there be a fourth wall? Is performing with a fourth wall not connecting and therefore a poor performance? E.g. Takahashi's rock star quality, energy, and viewer connection is palpable. OTOH, I find John Curry's belletic skating mesmerizingly beautiful and artistic without "playing/reaching out to the audience".

Before I end this long assed rambling, I want to agree with Blade Of Passion that Shawn Swayer's LP PCS was the most underscored of this season.

Double post deleted.

Can you break up the paragraphs more? I just couldn't make it through that huge block of text in the middle.

SkateFiguring said:

Online fans have voiced different demands and criticisms so I wonder if they think a skater should skate to the music, or portray a character, or tell a story? Which is more important if not all three are achievable?

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I'd say skating to the music is most important, because being able to control the timing of the movements to music shows technical control, even if there's no more expression than that.

Adding finer musical nuances or playing a character or telling a story would be extra on top of that.

Imagine an actor who can barely skate but who comes out on skates and lurches around with no timing to the stroking, but who does manage to stay in character through facial expression, arm movements, etc. He wouldn't be interpreting the music through the actual skating, would he?

Should there be a fourth wall?

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I think that depends on the style that the skater and choreographer have chosen for each program.

Thanks, Mr. Inman, for giving us such interesting information. What a challenge judges have these days, indeed. And of course they can't please everyone--sometimes it seems they can't please anyone! Added to the challenge is the fact that it's nigh on impossible to quantify a lot of what makes up skating. As Moskvina said in 1994 (after that squeaker of a long program for pairs), some people prefer lyrics and some prefer physics--the poetic way of saying "different strokes for different folks."

My moment of truth came in 1998 in the Nagano ladies' long program. I don't care how many people explain the superiority of whatever jumps or the joyous expression with which Tara skated, Michelle will always be the skater whose program I preferred. Then it hit me: no matter what the judges decided, I got to see both programs. So to me as a viewer and as a lover of skating, a judgment one way or the other isn't the deciding factor. I relaxed about it after that. Let other people get the ulcers; I'll just gratefully receive the best that skating has to offer.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain things! Good luck this year in the competitive season.

Because this is all subjective, it means that the judges can basically give it to whomever they want. How do you quantify originality? Should you get a lesser score if you are Carmen, because everyone else is Carmen that year? The same is true with expression, for example. The most expressive and the least expressive--yeah, you can see a big difference. But in the middle--not so much. The only bullet points that you could perhaps judge more or less objectively were coverage of the ice and speed.

Another thing that concerns me is that skaters are being judged for choreography that they probably had no control over. I find this upsetting. I remember reading a book about Tara and Michelle in 1998 (by Christine Brennan, iirc) and it was surprising to me what entourages sthey had. To some extent they could decide what music, costumes, to pick, etc. but for the most part they were controlled by the adults in their life. I have a problem with punishing a teenager because of music she didn't cut and choreography that she didn't create.

Interesting point about how skating is moving away from the performance and back onto hard-to-see on TV things like edging and stroking. While skating purists (who still miss the figure 8 competition) may like it, having people win medals who visibly skated poorly (I'm talking to you, Patrick Chan!) will not help the sport's popularity. At its peak in the 90's the emphasis was on jumping and skating clean. You could usually guess who won (except in cases where there were two awesome skates, like Tara and Michelle again.) Is this a coincidence? Possibly not.

Poodlepal said:

Because this is all subjective, it means that the judges can basically give it to whomever they want. How do you quantify originality? Should you get a lesser score if you are Carmen, because everyone else is Carmen that year? The same is true with expression, for example. The most expressive and the least expressive--yeah, you can see a big difference. But in the middle--not so much. The only bullet points that you could perhaps judge more or less objectively were coverage of the ice and speed.

Another thing that concerns me is that skaters are being judged for choreography that they probably had no control over. I find this upsetting. I remember reading a book about Tara and Michelle in 1998 (by Christine Brennan, iirc) and it was surprising to me what entourages sthey had. To some extent they could decide what music, costumes, to pick, etc. but for the most part they were controlled by the adults in their life. I have a problem with punishing a teenager because of music she didn't cut and choreography that she didn't create.

Interesting point about how skating is moving away from the performance and back onto hard-to-see on TV things like edging and stroking. While skating purists (who still miss the figure 8 competition) may like it, having people win medals who visibly skated poorly (I'm talking to you, Patrick Chan!) will not help the sport's popularity. At its peak in the 90's the emphasis was on jumping and skating clean. You could usually guess who won (except in cases where there were two awesome skates, like Tara and Michelle again.) Is this a coincidence? Possibly not.

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Also worth mentioning about the peak was the continued domination of Americans in the ladies discipline. We could point out that the decline of American ladies parallels the decline of the sport in the USA. I also agree that when jumps were king, people enjoyed it more.

The decrease in popularity of figure skating in the US does not mean the decrease of popularity of the sport on the whole. Countries with winning skaters have more enthusiastic fans than ever, and they extend their love to foreign stars. It may be the old chicken and egg question but successful skaters incite national pride and popularity of the sport which then gets more $upport. The popularity and the support then produce more talents. The US had their own superstars and sensational pre-Olympic scandals in the 90's and yes the simplistic 6.0 system made casual fans feel involved and knowledgeable. Cycles including the economic ones play a part in the sport's popularity but currently skating is more popular than ever in Asia. As late comers, their skaters have thrived under the COP. As well, It seems the fans are generally being more educated about the COP scoring in some nations as well.

Figure skating is not in decline or in danger of demise though it may feel so in the US, and I have sympathy for American skating fans. I guess the longer people are used to a system, the more reluctant they are to accept a new one, regardless of its merits, especially when one's favorites don't seem to benefit from it. Witness the American holding on to the Imperial system of measurements despite its obvious disadvantages. However, no way in Hell would the Americans give up the Metric system in their currency - because it has always been so.

I guess I'm trying to say that though the COP system is going through growing pains and being adjusted, as it is adjustable, not all perceived ills can or should be blamed on it.

As for the choreographies, they are designed according to the skaters' individual abilities and strengths. The top scoring choreography can't simply be gifted to better winning chances. Of course, the older and more established skaters have more say in their choice of programs. More rights and authority do come with maturity, experiences and especially success.

Sorry for the double post. I'm just learning not to go back pages in this forum.

Excellent post, Skatefiguring!

I'm not so sure the box office for LIVE fs events has been hindered, and they are the ones, if they haven't read up on CoP leave the arena baffled. Very often a live spectator can spot a winner without reference to the scoring. I do agree that TV viewing has declined in the US.

The reason, I believe, and it is my opinion, is that the Scandal of 2002 and the front page news about it for weeks got to the casual TV viewers and put fs in their 'if I have nothing better to do' bag.

Ladies FS has been hyped by the American press since Sonia made her first movie, and it carried on until Sasha did not get the gold in her last Oly. The american boys do not get that hype. Despite being an Oly Gold Medalist, Evan made his name on a reality show. Maybe there is something in developing a new American little girl into the next Ice Princess. We will have to wait for that budding talent to appear.

You're right about the entire SPORT being more appreciated in Europe than in America. Yet the small gang of American FS lovers do persist.

Well, I don't remember the scandal of 2002 upsetting people in America that much--no American pair was involved. I'm glad that the interest in the sport has remained steady or peaked in other parts of the world (which I cannot discuss since I don't know TV schedules, etc. in countries other than my own. We'll see what happens if Mirai gets over her nerves or Rachael gets some love from the judges, if the sport gets more attention and hype. A recession in the US market hurts everyone, though, not just American skaters. Certainly there were a lot of world skaters on the tour that closed, and remember Oksana Baiul's reality show gig and life story movie? Or Ekaterina Goreeva in the snow man kiddie show (that was panned by the critics?) This is a huge capitalist country with a lot of $$$ to throw around at celebrities that are in for the moment (although lots of other countries also fit that description, especially Japan.)

As for the rather anti-American remarks made by SkateFiguring--that's just nonsense. For one thing, the COP benefitted Davis and White beautifully the other day when they fell. And remember Evan, who figured out how to rack up technical points without doing a quad? Perhaps Rachael is being hurt by the COP somewhat, but it is certainly not all Americans in all disciplines.

As for the suggestion that American's can't adapt to the new system because Americans can't adapt to new systems like other countries can--grow up! I'm a chemistry teacher. Do you think I tell my students to measure their chemicals by the teaspoon? (Well, actually I did the other day, but it was a "fun" lab, LOL. I wouldn't in a real lab). Every child learns the metric system in school and those who pursue careers in science and medicine become good at both. It is possible to measure a dilated uterus in cm, make prescriptions in milligrams and then come home and add 2 cups of flour and a teaspoon of sugar to make a pie! People do it every day, you know.

As I've seen so much in the skating fandom how a reputation gets started and a label gets stuck, I feel the need to respond to Poodelpal's anouncement of my anti-Americanism before it becomes an accepted "truth".

In my post above, I said

I guess the longer people are used to a system, the more reluctant they are to accept a new one, regardless of its merits, especially when one's favorites don't seem to benefit from it.

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"People" is taken to be "Americans" and "one's favorites" then gets spun into "American skaters". Maybe it's because I brought up the different measuring systems as an analogy? Measuring is a daily exercise and experience so the the measuring system is an easy one for all to relate to and understand. My comment was on the reluctance to accept changes, based on how habituated people are to the old way, not on their nationality. I certainly did not make any comment on Americans' adapting ability. I have no doubt an American living in a Metric society will quickly adapt to the Metric system just as s/he will quickly become familiar with the British money if s/he earns and spends British money. Poodlepal only reinforced my observation that in the US Metric measuring is used scientically but not in daily living of the general population.

My point is that many fans still judge skating with the old Imperial/6.0 mindset while judges are scoring with the Metric/COP system. It's like measuring with cups and spoons in the chemistry or medical lab, using Poodlepal's example. The newer skating nations naturally have had an easier time accepting the current system while the more established skating nations go through a transition, at least till the new generation of skaters come of age, if they have been well guided by the transitioned coaches.

I lurked long enough to see extreme extrapolation, spinning and manufacturing of "facts" are often to be followed by allegations and bashings based on these newly created "facts". E.g. "Patrick Chan always falls 4 times and wins and next he will fall 10 times in one program but the judges will gift him the gold medal no matter what because they have already decided so before the competition." Never mind that such win has happened only once and no one knows what the judges really think and who will win next. Nonetheless, like-minded people reinforce each others and influence others such that such scenarios are ingrained in some people like facts, followed by assaults on Chan's character, accusations of incompetence of judges and of systemic corruption, as well as the total failure of the scoring system.

So I try to clear things up early for myself, before I become the infamous American hater in this fandom, or I should get out of this hot kitchen if self-defence becomes a time-wasting necessity.

Poodlepal said:

Well, I don't remember the scandal of 2002 upsetting people in America that much--no American pair was involved. I'm glad that the interest in the sport has remained steady or peaked in other parts of the world (which I cannot discuss since I don't know TV schedules, etc. in countries other than my own. We'll see what happens if Mirai gets over her nerves or Rachael gets some love from the judges, if the sport gets more attention and hype. A recession in the US market hurts everyone, though, not just American skaters. Certainly there were a lot of world skaters on the tour that closed, and remember Oksana Baiul's reality show gig and life story movie? Or Ekaterina Goreeva in the snow man kiddie show (that was panned by the critics?) This is a huge capitalist country with a lot of $$$ to throw around at celebrities that are in for the moment (although lots of other countries also fit that description, especially Japan.)

As for the rather anti-American remarks made by SkateFiguring--that's just nonsense. For one thing, the COP benefitted Davis and White beautifully the other day when they fell. And remember Evan, who figured out how to rack up technical points without doing a quad? Perhaps Rachael is being hurt by the COP somewhat, but it is certainly not all Americans in all disciplines.

As for the suggestion that American's can't adapt to the new system because Americans can't adapt to new systems like other countries can--grow up! I'm a chemistry teacher. Do you think I tell my students to measure their chemicals by the teaspoon? (Well, actually I did the other day, but it was a "fun" lab, LOL. I wouldn't in a real lab). Every child learns the metric system in school and those who pursue careers in science and medicine become good at both. It is possible to measure a dilated uterus in cm, make prescriptions in milligrams and then come home and add 2 cups of flour and a teaspoon of sugar to make a pie! People do it every day, you know.

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It was a big deal in the U.S. Obviously, nothing like Tonya-Nancy but the U.S. press rushed to the defense of the Canadian pair and the whole business of whether French judge sold her vote made it one of the biggest Olympic stories that year. Considering it's pairs skating, it was a pretty big story.

Even though it was a big story, I don't think it had much influence on the way most Americans viewed the sport. Figure skating judging has always been a national punch line -- "Oh, those rascally Russian judges, they're at it again!"

You're probably right. Non-fans probably rolled their eyes and said, yeah, well what do you expect?

Poodlepal said:

Well, I don't remember the scandal of 2002 upsetting people in America that much--no American pair was involved. I'm glad that the interest in the sport has remained steady or peaked in other parts of the world (which I cannot discuss since I don't know TV schedules, etc. in countries other than my own.

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It did not upset the fans of Artistry (whatever that is) and the actual Sport. It affected those interested in Sports without reference to a nationality - the casual fans who made it the jewel-in-the-crown of the Olympics, and one of the highest ranking shows on American TV. It no longer is the highest ranking TV show on American TV. What's left is the die-hard gang's interest in Figure Skating and it is not as it used to be. I suggested a new Ice Princess to maybe get more women interested in the Sport again. What men there was just left because of the scandal. They won't be back. The media is bent on a unique petite fille who has good skating talents.

Layfan said:

You're probably right. Non-fans probably rolled their eyes and said, yeah, well what do you expect?

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Non fans see it as just another Pagaent, but the fans at the Olys see it as coming in from the cold and socializing.