Patrick Chan has a new quad, ready to defend title

From watching live, I think Chan is something special considering how he moves his feet and his use of edges and he stands out but Kozuka, especially Kozuka, is not that close behind in that aspect and Takahashi also. From the 3 I think Takahashi has the most control of all his body movements, not just feet, or they look more natural, at least to me.

seniorita said:

From watching live, I think Chan is something special considering how he moves his feet and his use of edges and he stands out but Kozuka, especially Kozuka, is not that close behind in that aspect and Takahashi also. From the 3 I think Takahashi has the most control of all his body movements, not just feet, or they look more natural, at least to me.

Click to expand...

I even can't compare Takahashi to Chan.

Hernando said:

I have seen neither of them skate Live but have heard others say something similar.
Have also heard it about Evan being better Live too.

Some of it gets down to taste. At times Chan seems a bit "over choreographed" to me.
I like to see some basic stroking and gliding to the music occassionally.

I think it was BOP who pointed out that is part of choreography too and at times missing in CoP programs.

There was a spot in Yuna's program this season where she did that and it was great to see. I wish she did more of it but that would cost her POINTS :disapp:

Mao does more of it in her exhibition pieces which is why some of us think they are so beautiful.

Click to expand...

Any fan of this sport would understand how hard it is to incorporate choreography into a program, at the same time doing the jumps, spins and steps. And who's better out there than Chan in basic stroking?

seniorita said:

From watching live, I think Chan is something special considering how he moves his feet and his use of edges and he stands out but Kozuka, especially Kozuka, is not that close behind in that aspect and Takahashi also. From the 3 I think Takahashi has the most control of all his body movements, not just feet, or they look more natural, at least to me.

Click to expand...

I agree that Dai seems to have the best overall control and abilty to communicate it to the crowd.

I think Patrick's programs at times are way too busy making it much harder for him to appear to be in control and communicate with the audience.

Why do some feel Patrick is "skating through the music " at times? Has that ever been said about Dai?

Sometimes it looks like somebody (Lori) has forgotten about presentation. But that is the CoP and quantity beats quality in this system. If you don't believe me just ask Johnny


Dai grabs a crowd and even when he makes mistakes he draws them in and owns them. Think Michelle Kwan

Kozuka and Patrick are still learning how to command the ice the way Dai and Plushy do.

Yeah, for me Dai is above anyone else skating now, Hernando. Look how many people argued one way or the other about whether Plushy or Evan should have won the OGM at Vancouver, but almost every one of the arguers (including me) said, "Oh, but Takahashi would have made a wonderful gold medalist." He just reaches us all with the quality and passion of his work.

Chan can certainly land a 3A and when he gets it right, the jump looks fine, no prerotation or any issues. But it's not a very consistent jump for him. He is probably well aware of this - his more recent interviews show him to be quite level-headed and more critical of his skating than some in the media and in forums (e.g. the IFS magazine story). At this point, it's safe to assume that he will continue to take his chances with it (not like he has much choice in the SP) but it will never be his best jump, though he can compensate for it in other areas. Stephane Lambiel did pretty well with an iffy 3A, and even in later years, disappointing results from him were usually not just due to 3A issues. Stephane, IMO, was a superior performer to Chan and much more musical, but Patrick has his own strengths that he can benefit from.

As for choreo and interpretation, this is really a matter of personal preference to some degree. I've heard commentators rave and I've heard commentators say they don't get his style. Personally, I prefer less cluttered programs - skaters these days never seem to hold a position or an edge because they're already on to the next move. I would love to see TR folded into the choreo mark so that these linking movements could go back to what they should be: part of the program and not a goal in itself.

Now, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I honestly don't get why some people feel the need to promote Chan as some sort of perfect super-skater who is superior to all in every aspect of his skating (and personality). Can't he just be a very good skater (or even exceptional, if you feel that strongly) whose programs speak to you? I've seen some special skaters over the years but none whom I'd consider perfect.

And finally, a word about Dai... I don't always love his programs, and I do think there are some skaters who can better express music than him. But he's a wonderful performer, and I feel he's been very smart in working with different choreographers over the years and getting diverse influences and styles: in his last three competitive seasons, he's worked with Morozov, Kenji Miyamoto, Pasquale Camerlengo, Shae-Lynn Bourne and Stephane Lambiel (though the latter collaboration resulted in an EX program only). I really like it when skaters don't stick to the same choreographer, and believe that Chan could benefit from working with someone other than Lori Nichol, who may know the system but whose well of interesting ideas is running dry, IMO (though I do like some of the programs she did for Carolina Kostner).

If one were to pick and choose performances to illustrate a point, even Takahashi could be damned to having no solid skills of any kind, having fallen on all kinds of jumps and stumbled on footwork just this last season alone. And if one were to pick and choose one aspect of skating to illustrate excellence and dominence, then various skaters can be proclaimed the Skating God, the best without peers.

Ice is slippery, especially when a skater challenges himself/herself to try to reach the next level. And it doesn't take a skater to know we all have off days.

Conveniently, a biased judgement can be made for or against someone by picking out specific performances or a period in their career. It is convenient to pick the one tumultuous year of Chan's heretofore young brilliant career and the early following season when he was trying to make a huge stride forward. At the time, it was about the mental state which affected everything, not really about his technical abilities. During this period, he even fell during a footwork sequence, and 3As which he had been able to land in competitions since age 16. Should his whole career be judged by this period? Should anybody's be judged on a bad year, which can be due to various reasons? In his worst year, Chan won a Worlds silver, at 19.

This thread is about Chan's quads but looking at the presented videos of Goeber's 2002 Olympic LP and Fedéric Dambier's 2005 Worlds, one can clearly see the difference in the qualities of the skatings and of the choreographies. Quads are just highlights of Chan's programs, something he flows in and out of amidist intricate choreography accented by other elements as well. Take out the quads of the other two programs, what is left?

Many great skaters win Worlds or even the Olympics at their peak (close to age 25 for Men) so they don't continue with a winning streak. To be dominent in the sport of skating, meaning a longevity at major podiums and putting out memorable programs, a male skater has to break out relatively young, winning major events, or being extremely promising, before 20 with real results, not just hope and hype, and to continue to improve and excel after the initial success, not being a one hit wonder. Prime examples off the top of my head are Plushenko and Chan. These days, CoP mandates a complete package to be the winners. The quadsters are not at the top, with the exception of Chan. For him, it's just a scary additional arsenal to propel him out of reach of most others clustered at the top of the field, forcing them to learn and to attempt quads in competitions, taking more risk.

As I said last year, when someone who doesn't need a quad to win has a quad, noone can win without one. Just look at this year's Worlds podium.

Chan is always striving to improve, an oft-repeated theme. He doesn't need a quad to win, or an amazing 3A, but it's his nature and goal to try to reach ever closer to perfection. And he delivers.

Hernando said:

I agree and still hope Patrick will master the 3A. Without it he can never be cosnidered as one of the all-time great skaters,

Click to expand...

So I presume you don't consider Dick Button one of the all time great skaters? Or Lambiel?

Most of us know that 20-30% of his scores are gifted by Lori's lobbying.

Click to expand...

So you believe his 280 and change should've been 196-224 at worlds? Please, show me a scoring breakdown. Recalling, of course, that 124.13 of that score was from element base value (unless you think he was gifted there as well in terms of level calling/rotations).

I hope he can show it without all the lobbying and politics.

Click to expand...

He gave masterful performances in the LP at Canadian Nationals and his SP at Worlds did show it, regardless of the actual scores. If you don't feel those were good skates worthy of high scores, that's okay. It's pretty obvious we look for different things when it comes to figure skating.

Before all the nonsense about imaginary quads he nees to show a solid 3A.

Click to expand...

His quad toe is more consistent than his 3A. Would you rather he didn't pursue that jump?

And don't forget as we get closer to Sochi the Russians will spend as much as it takes to bring Patrick down.

Is Canada willing to spend what it takes for Patrick to win Gold on Russian ice in 2014??

Click to expand...

If I say no, you argue he won't win. If I say yes, you'll argue he doesn't deserve to win. I choose not to play this game.

Buttercup's thoughts

1. I definitely agree transitions need to be removed as a seperate component score. They're too fully part of choreography for me to warrant the spot. And given that they also have GOE earning capabilities on top of that (as transitions into elements, unusual/creative entry etc), I think having a separate spot is akin to having Skating Speed alongside Skating SKills.

2. Buttercup, can you give examples (COP or 6.0) of programs you love? PM me if you'd rather - but I'd love to explore further. Youtube is my university.

3.

I honestly don't get why some people feel the need to promote Chan as some sort of perfect super-skater who is superior to all in every aspect of his skating (and personality). Can't he just be a very good skater (or even exceptional, if you feel that strongly) whose programs speak to you? I've seen some special skaters over the years but none whom I'd consider perfect.

Click to expand...

The perils of the internet. I have a fairly broad swath of interests, and discussing them on the internet means I'm uniquely passionate about them. Invariably, the majority of people who are willing to discuss seriously with total strangers tend to fall into that category, where enthusiasm feels like worship to the unconvinced. But I don't think this effect is unique to Chan. Michelle Kwan certainly has her cult (of which I'm not a member), as Yu Na Kim. For me, at the same time, I wonder what's so wrong with Chan that people root for some pretty awful things. Hell, flash back to the Canadian Nationals LP thread, and you see some people complaining about his performance (not his scores, his performance); during the run-up to the Olympics one poster expressed disappointment that Rochette's mother had died instead of Chan's (on the assumption that Chan wouldn't be able to compete in his grief and withdrew, which apparently was about his lack of character or something).

4. I definitely agree that he should work with others beyond Nichol. I doubt he will. And that means he probably won't grow artistically as much as I'd like him to grow. But if he continues his technical growth even approaching the pace he did this year.... well, that is exciting for me. And even artistically/performance wise - I see things I like in him.

^What was wrong with Plushy and people were writing like he killed their dog after some point? The thing about Vancouver-Joannie you wrote was really awful, anyone who wrote it must be at least an idiot.

There is nothing wrong with Chan, dont worry, he is just the winning athlete, thats why
Usually the dominaning athletes gathers most of our critism, thats all. If he keeps kicking everybody the next few years, be prepared for more.
How many critisize Contesti 's basic skills and how many Kostner's results, they are both italian champions

ImaginaryPogue said:

So I presume you don't consider Dick Button one of the all time great skaters? .

Click to expand...

Perhaps he single worst example of horribly weak and twisted logic I can ever recall reading at GS.

Congratulations, and such a hall of fame lame remark deserves some type of award.

Maybe Button will send you one of his OGM's, which would make you the first Canadian man to have one

seniorita said:

How many critisize Contesti 's basic skills and how many Kostner's results, they are both italian champions

Click to expand...

They are more than Italian Champions. They have artistry and international success, and Kostner, like Chan, has skating skills that convert those who watch her live, like the judges.

Hernando said:

Perhaps he single worst example of horribly weak and twisted logic I can ever recall reading at GS.

Congratulations, and such a hall of fame lame remark deserves some type of award.

Maybe Button will send you one of his OGM's, which would make you the first Canadian man to have one

Click to expand...

You're right to imply my point was facile at best and deserving of such mocking. It's rather disappointing you focused on that as opposed to engaging with the other points I made, but I can't say I'm surprised (hell, you even edited out the other example in order to avoid actual arguments! I love your disingenuous jab at my nationality as well. Definitely a beautiful Hernando-esque evasion)

I should explain my point more fully, though, because I think what I meant is still salient. I'm not convinced that there's one thing that limits a skater from greatness. Sometimes, the most memorable skaters are so because of a single factor (though I realize memorable doesn't always equal greatness) - Lucinda Ruh and her spins, for example. I'm not sure Chan will ever become that consistent on the jump to the point where I won't worry for his landings. But I do know that he's landed some gorgeous ones. I don't think it'll preclude him from greatness.

SkateFiguring said:

They are more than Italian Champions. They have artistry and international success, and Kostner, like Chan, has skating skills that convert those who watch her live, like the judges.

Click to expand...

my point didnt come across, but anyway, nevermind I meant something else

ImaginaryPogue said:

You're right to imply my point was facile at best and deserving of such mocking. It's rather disappointing you focused on that as opposed to engaging with the other points I made, but I can't say I'm surprised (hell, you even edited out the other example in order to avoid actual arguments! I love your disingenuous jab at my nationality as well. Definitely a beautiful Hernando-esque evasion)

I should explain my point more fully, though, because I think what I meant is still salient. I'm not convinced that there's one thing that limits a skater from greatness. Sometimes, the most memorable skaters are so because of a single factor (though I realize memorable doesn't always equal greatness) - Lucinda Ruh and her spins, for example. I'm not sure Chan will ever become that consistent on the jump to the point where I won't worry for his landings. But I do know that he's landed some gorgeous ones. I don't think it'll preclude him from greatness.

Click to expand...

Chan is already pretty great but he is NOT the only one.

Hernando said:

Chan is already pretty great but he is NOT the only one.

Click to expand...

An astute observation we all somehow missed! :thumbsup:

SkateFiguring said:

An astute observation we all somehow missed! :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

I am glad to give credit where credit is due.

Chan has had maybe two great LP's in what - 30 attempts as a senior skater?
I can think of others who have been more impressve but let's be fair since Chan is still young.

He might have two more great skates in the next three years.
Will he save one for Sochi or will we see a repeat of Vancouver?

Time will tell.

Hernando said:

I am glad to give credit where credit is due.

Chan has had maybe two great LP's in what - 30 attempts as a senior skater?
I can think of others who have been more impressve but let's be fair since Chan is still young.

He might have two more great skates in the next four years.
Will he save one for Sochi or will we see a repeat of Vancouver?

Time will tell.

Click to expand...

4 times Canadian champion, many GP golds, latest GPF champion, 2 worlds Silver and one Gold. 3 Guiness records in figure skating. All this by age 20.

Many skaters would love to have one of his achievements so they can retire in glory. Many did. Most never get to.

Hernando, it has been fun but we have to save some for another day.

eta. Ha! You cheated by deleting your last ridiculous bait-post!

Hernando said:

How many times has Plushenko fallen on his 3A? Or Oda? Or Johnny?
They have mastered the 3A.

Patrick still misses and my point was he needs a solid 3A rather than 3 different quads at this stage of his career.

Click to expand...

Has Johnny ever mastered quad? Patrick's 3A is not as solid as Johnny's. So what? He still is a much better skater than Johnny has ever been. Patrick's 3A is much more solid than Lambiel's 3A. Was Lambiel considered a top skater? This jump might never be Patrick's best jump. But he has it. If he has more solid quads, he will still be one of the best in the world.

Hernando said:

I agree and still hope Patrick will master the 3A. Without it he can never be cosnidered as one of the all-time great skaters,

Most of us know that 20-30% of his scores are gifted by Lori's lobbying.

I hope he can show it without all the lobbying and politics.

Before all the nonsense about imaginary quads he nees to show a solid 3A.

Maybe this season.

And don't forget as we get closer to Sochi the Russians will spend as much as it takes to bring Patrick down.

Is Canada willing to spend what it takes for Patrick to win Gold on Russian ice in 2014??

Click to expand...

As you mentioned in your other posts, it comes down to a matter of tastes. So if you don't think Patrick's that good, that's fine. But for your baseless accusation, it's simply ridiculous and it shows nothing but your personal bias.