Patrick Chan has a new quad, ready to defend title

[jettasian]

Now, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I honestly don't get why some people feel the need to promote Chan as some sort of perfect super-skater who is superior to all in every aspect of his skating (and personality). Can't he just be a very good skater (or even exceptional, if you feel that strongly) whose programs speak to you? I've seen some special skaters over the years but none whom I'd consider perfect.

It's the same as some people feel the need to shot down everything Chan has achieved. Regardless how great he has skated, how many records he has broken, IT'S STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM and should someone have skated better on that night, they could have beaten him blah blah blah.

To me, Chan is already one of the greatest skaters of all time. Sure, he has only won one World, and no Olympics (yet). But so what? It's just a matter of timing. Lysacke won gold in 2010, was that skate that good? I don't think so. So to me, whoever is greatest doesn't come down to what medals he has won. It's the skill of the skater and the overall performance.

 

[seniorita]

^ I dont think Buttercup meant this.
Yes but can you just accept that he is not everyone's cup of tea, that doesnt mean they are putting him down. Just because they dont enjoy much his skating doesnt mean they have to defend themselves from being Chan bashers all the time. JUst as you dont like Lysacek. Things like his exceptional skating skills or cool quads, are obvious, nobody has denied that, but still someone cannot be warm about his skating, cant he?

If I dont like vanilla ice-cream and you think it is the best thing in the world, I can see you think it is the best thing, have read how many records have broken or how many youtube views has had, but still I prefere the strawberry and can tell you why i dont like what you see and like. How does that make me a vanilla basher?

 

[janetfan]

As you mentioned in your other posts, it comes down to a matter of tastes. So if you don't think Patrick's that good, that's fine. But for your baseless accusation, it's simply ridiculous and it shows nothing but your personal bias.

Patrick is the poster boy for the CoP. Fair or not I think it does put an extra burden on him at times.

If you have read other post from me you will see I did not come to suddenly dislike the CoP but have never cared for it.
I don't like it's values, I don' like partial credits and I don't like quantity over quality. I don't like anonymous judging or the reason it exists.

Being overly busy on the ice is not the same thing as being musical or expressive IMO.

So it is true, Patrick is not my favorite skater (big gasp) but I thought he skated brilliantly (for once) at Canadian Natls last season and deserved to win the WC by the way he skated.

He is growing on me and I am interested to see his new programs.

But I also want to see Kozuka's new programs, Dai, Brezina, Gachinsky, etc and Evan and Plushy as well if they compete this season.

Baseless accusations? Is it baseless to know that Lori runs seminars for ISU judges, and is vey influential.
It doesn't mean Lori is a cheat but it does mean ISU is still a very tacky organization that puts up with conflict of interests in ways other sports would never dream of.


The more medals and championships Lori's skaters win the more money she can earn for her services.

Would Russians (or anybody else) like it if Frank Carroll was coaching judges on how to mark?
Would N. Americans like it if Mishin was training judges on how to score jumps and award GOE?

Patrick is a very well lobbied skater both from Lori and his federation.
He is not the only one and ISU does not mind as long as nobody gets caught going over the line or messes up at the Olympics.

Maybe you are new to skating but this was mentioned about Evan, his relationship with Lori, and Amercian lobbying.

It is nothing new in skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not sure what is meant by "lobbying"? Is it the same as in Politics?

Did you mean "hyping"? which there are plenty enough on skating forums but next nothing in the newsmedia.

 

[janetfan]

I'm not sure what is meant by "lobbying"? Is it the same as in Politics?

Did you mean "hyping"? which there are plenty enough on skating forums but next nothing in the newsmedia.

Yes, I mean "lobbying" in the way we see it in politics.

"Hyping" at skating boards IMO would have little or NO effect on judges or tech panels.
They are all too busy studying the ever changing CoP to have enough time to to consider posts at skating boards

Look at some of the rule changes from last season and who proposed them.
The rule changes obviously did not favor Yuna and were not proposed or lobbied for by the KSF by by another federation.

 

[fscric]

So the rule changes favoured Patrick when he didn't even have a quad last season? Perhaps Lori / Skate Canada had convinced ISU that Patrick was going to get a quad this season, that's why they changed the rule so that he could be benefited from it!

Seniorita, I don't think the Chan fans (or ubers if you wanted to use this term) felt that everybody should love Patrick, but sometimes the nonsense spewed by some people about him is just mind-blowing.

 

[Bluebonnet]

The rule change from the last season? That included adding values on quad jumps, which was the worst nightmare for Canada's only hope who, at the time, did not have a quad at all. Guess what? Chan wasn't avoiding it. He has bravely faced it. And the next thing we know is that he has become one of the most consistent quad jumpers in the world the next season. If there were truly any lobbying by Canadians, like what you've claimed, Hernando, it didn't matter at all. It wasn't as effective as what Frank Carroll did to Racheal Flatt.

 

[janetfan]

The rule change from the last season? That included adding values on quad jumps, which was the worst nightmare for Canada's only hope who, at the time, did not have a quad at all. Guess what? Chan wasn't avoiding it. He has bravely faced it. And the next thing we know is that he has become one of the most consistent quad jumpers in the world the next season. If there were truly any lobbying by Canadians, like what you've claimed, Hernando, it didn't matter at all. It wasn't as effective as what Frank Carroll did to Racheal Flatt.

If you actually read my post about rule changes you will see I mentioned Yuna and not Patrick :sheesh:

As to the changes about quads and particularluy easing the penalty for quads that splat I offered no opinion.

So it seems you are making up bogus points here.

If I recall Patrick had a mythical or "practice quad" for a couple of years. Now we learn from his ubers that he has a practice 4S and practice 4F.

I still wonder if he has a stable 3A which he can't avoid showing in the SP.

Tell you what - I hope Patrck has mastered the 3A and shows us new quads this season. It would be exciting and good for skating.

If he falls down 4-5 times and still wins a GP event that will be disappointing and the "poster boy" for the CoP will once again help diminish the credibilty of skating as a sport.

Hoping for the best and always deaming of fairness.

 

[Bluebonnet]

If you actually read my post about rule changes you will see I mentioned Yuna and not Patrick :sheesh:

As to the changes about quads and particularluy easing the penalty for quads that splat I offered no opinion.

So it seems you are making up bogus points here.

Those were what you've said:

Patrick is a very well lobbied skater both from Lori and his federation.

Yes, I mean "lobbying" in the way we see it in politics.

So I'm not making it up.

Now we learn from his ubers that he has a practice 4S and practice 4F.

You are making things up. No one has said that he has had any practice 4F, but you.

 

[jettasian]

^ I dont think Buttercup meant this.
Yes but can you just accept that he is not everyone's cup of tea, that doesnt mean they are putting him down. Just because they dont enjoy much his skating doesnt mean they have to defend themselves from being Chan bashers all the time. JUst as you dont like Lysacek. Things like his exceptional skating skills or cool quads, are obvious, nobody has denied that, but still someone cannot be warm about his skating, cant he?

Oh, I know that people have different fave in terms of skaters. I'm fine with that. I just have problem with some people are so obvious bias and make some ridiculous accusation about that skater just because s/he doesn't like the skater is just pathetic.

 

[janetfan]

Those were what you've said:





So I'm not making it up.



You are making things up. No one has said that he has had any practice 4F, but you.

I can't help it if you don't undrstand me or that yor post makes no sense at all to me.

If I said "lobbying" I assumed you were intelligent enough to know that could cover a wide area of skating and not only your obsession with quads.

Guess I was wrong.

 

[jettasian]

Patrick is the poster boy for the CoP. Fair or not I think it does put an extra burden on him at times.

If you have read other post from me you will see I did not come to suddenly dislike the CoP but have never cared for it.
I don't like it's values, I don' like partial credits and I don't like quantity over quality. I don't like anonymous judging or the reason it exists.

Being overly busy on the ice is not the same thing as being musical or expressive IMO.

So it is true, Patrick is not my favorite skater (big gasp) but I thought he skated brilliantly (for once) at Canadian Natls last season and deserved to win the WC by the way he skated.

He is growing on me and I am interested to see his new programs.

But I also want to see Kozuka's new programs, Dai, Brezina, Gachinsky, etc and Evan and Plushy as well if they compete this season.

Baseless accusations? Is it baseless to know that Lori runs seminars for ISU judges, and is vey influential.
It doesn't mean Lori is a cheat but it does mean ISU is still a very tacky organization that puts up with conflict of interests in ways other sports would never dream of.


The more medals and championships Lori's skaters win the more money she can earn for her services.

Would Russians (or anybody else) like it if Frank Carroll was coaching judges on how to mark?
Would N. Americans like it if Mishin was training judges on how to score jumps and award GOE?

Patrick is a very well lobbied skater both from Lori and his federation.
He is not the only one and ISU does not mind as long as nobody gets caught going over the line or messes up at the Olympics.

Maybe you are new to skating but this was mentioned about Evan, his relationship with Lori, and Amercian lobbying.

It is nothing new in skating.

What you just said is based on YOUR OWN OPINIONS about what is going on with Lori Nicole. And to say that Patrick Chan's world mark was boosted by 20-30% because of Lori Nicole is baseless and insulting to Patrick Chan. So in your view, Chan should have gotten 216 points, not 30% inflated 281 points. Which means he should have placed 10th, behind Fernandez, Dornbush, Joubert, Amodio, Ado, Takahashi. Brezina was robbed for bronze, and Kozuka was robbed for gold.

And although I don't know much about the jumps and not into the skating world like many people here do, I'm not new. I know what I saw on my TV screen.

 

[janetfan]

What you just said is based on YOUR OWN OPINIONS about what is going on with Lori Nicole. And to say that Patrick Chan's world mark was boosted by 20-30% because of Lori Nicole is baseless and insulting to Patrick Chan.

And although I don't know much about the jumps and not into the skating world like many people here do, I'm not new. I know what I saw on my TV screen.

Your opinion is fine with me. We just disagree about a few things.

Since you are not new can you please tell me which other current skater has a coach/choreographer who is training ISU judges?

Is Frank Carroll training ISU judges?
Is Mishin training ISU judges?

Is Tat training ISU judges?

Is Orser training ISU judges?

If you don't see the obvious conflict of interest that exists in figure skating we can just disagree about this.

BTW, I think I read that David Wilson has done some seminars for judges but last time I checked he is not listed as the coach of a top skater.

I don't know what sports you follow, but can you imagine if Sir Alex Ferguson, coach of Man U was training soccer officials about how to call a game

What about Mr Sato training judges? Would that be a conflict of interest especially if we saw a few of his skates suddenly setting world records?

I think all sports need credibilty and as long as Lori is listed as one of Patrick's coaches she should be BANNED from training/influencing ISU judges.

How do you think Plushy and Mishin felt when after the score was announced in Vancouvr Lori was right there next to Evan giving him a big hug?

Fair or not, the perception STINKS.

Is skating a sport or a pageant?

 

[jettasian]

Your opinion is fine with me. We just disagree about a few things.

Since you are not new can you please tell me which other current skater has a coach/choreographer who is training ISU judges?

Is Frank Carroll training ISU judges?
Is Mishin training ISU judges?

Is Tat training ISU judges?

Is Orser training ISU judges?

If you don't see the obvious conflict of interest that exists in figure skating we can just disagree about this.

BTW, I think I read that David Wilson has done some seminars for judges but last time I checked he is not listed as the coach of a top skater.

I don't know what sports you follow, but can you imagine if Sir Alex Ferguson, coach of Man U was training soccer officials about how to call a game

What about Mr Sato training judges? Would that be a conflict of interest especially if we saw a few of his skates suddenly setting world records?

I think all sports need credibilty and as long as Lori is listed as one of Patrick's coaches she should be BANNED from training/influencing ISU judges.

How do you think Plushy and Mishin felt when after the score was announced in Vancouvr Lori was right there next to Evan giving him a big hug?

Fair or not, the perception STINKS.

Is skating a sport or a pageant?

Just don't think it's worth my time to continue with your ridiculous and baseless argument.

 

[janetfan]

Just don't think it's worth my time to continue with your ridiculous and baseless argument.

Yes, I feel the same way and typically get frustrated talking with new fans who love a skater but don't really know the history of the sport.

Ciao bambina

 

[Bluebonnet]

I can't help it if you don't undrstand me or that yor post makes no sense at all to me.

If I said "lobbying" I assumed you were intelligent enough to know that could cover a wide area of skating and not only your obsession with quads.

Guess I was wrong.

Obviously I'm not intelligent enough to know that quad is not one of the most point-grabbing element and not worth lobbying, and it's not important enough to be included in your "lobbying" claim.

Just wondering, has your newestly crowned Olympic gold medalist benefited in any way from this "Canadian lobbying"?

Is skating a sport or a pageant?

It's a pageant which you loved and cared so much.

 

[seniorita]

Seniorita, I don't think the Chan fans (or ubers if you wanted to use this term) felt that everybody should love Patrick, but sometimes the nonsense spewed by some people about him is just mind-blowing.

No I didnt want to say ubers, I dont like the use of this word.

 

[Buttercup]

I think Lori Nichol should not put herself in a position where there's an appearance of impropriety. To me, that means she can either train judges or train skaters, but not both. Her doing so is especially unfortunate since Patrick Chan, as well as some of Lori's choreo clients, have the talent to succeed on their own - but her involvement behind the scenes makes it appear like there's an unfair advantage.

Re Chan being criticized unfairly by people who dislike him/his skating (and I use "him" and not just "his skating" because some of it is personal and way out of line), I don't feel he has been singled out more than Plushenko, Lysacek or Joubert, to name a few (I can think of examples in other disciplines, too). IMO, his skating and programs are fair game, as are any comments he makes on the record, and he has made some pretty unpleasant ones over the years (not recently, as far as I can tell). And lest I be accused of hypocrisy, the same goes for any skater, including ones I like more than Patrick Chan. Of course, some things are just nasty and should never see the light of day, or that of a computer screen. IP's example being one such case.

As for whether or not Chan could have been expected to benefit from the changes to the value of the quad, my recollection is that he had a practice quad in 2009 (which had its own thread here) and tried it at 2009 Liberty. He also stated his intention to start including quads in his programs at the 2010 Worlds press conference, though at the time he said he would likely do so only in the LP. I give him credit for walking his talk and then some in this regard.

Finally, Seniorita helpfully tried to clarify my previous post, but just to make it absolutely clear, I have no problem with people who enjoy Patrick's skating and want to share their opinions of his strengths or their happiness when he succeeds. But I do feel that in some cases this crosses the line into excessive gushing and even trashing of other skaters, and for non-fans or on-the-fence people, this can result in the opposite effect of what was intended.

Strawberry ice cream? Really?

 

[seniorita]

^I wanted to write peanut instead but I couldnt remember how to spell it, ok?

 

[Olympia]

Everyone knows that *chocolate* is the best ice cream of all.

Seriously, though...I do worry a bit when someone responsible for coaching a competing skater is also coaching judges. It does create the appearance of impropriety, though the person involved might be completely innocent. But I'm wondering what the solution is, because the most knowledgeable people in skating are frequently the coaches most in demand. Skating isn't a community with a huge population of top-flight people. It's not like, for example, academia, where there are oodles and oodles of experts on any given subject. So what do we do? I'm not arguing--I'd just like to hear everyone's ideas.