Czisny plans triple Lutz-triple toe for Skate America

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 20, 2011

BackStage Barbie said:
The good thing her is that her coach Jason is a technical specialist so he is going to know based on what she is doing in training if her 3-3s in training would be ratified or not.

Also, due to a relatively weak field, Skate America is a great place to attempt this. Plus, as long as she lands the jump, even if the second triple is under-rotated or fully downgraded, she won't be any worse off than if she had simply done the 3z-2t. She should have no problem medaling at Skate America, and in my opinion, is probably favored for gold. I'd say a clean Czisny beats a clean Kostner any day.

Um.... no. A clean Kostner is a seven triple Kostner who will get great GOEs and PCS due to her speed and reputation. She would likely be very much ahead of Czisny on SS, C and T and likely the other two components as well. A clean Czisny will get stellar GOEs on her spins and spiral, solid for her footwork, and very little for her jumps. Clean Kostner wins on BV, PCS and likely GOEs. Of course, a clean Kostner is not something to bet the house on (though how about this - Kostner-Czisny go 1-2 at Worlds).

Agree with the rest, though.

R.D. · Sep 20, 2011

^^ keyword in the above paragraph: REPUTATION.

prettykeys · Sep 20, 2011

I would personally put a clean Carolina Kostner at her best above a clean Alissa Czisny at her best, regardless of reputation, but I like them both and it is unfortunate that their nerves have often derailed them from doing justice to themselves. Right now it looks like Czisny is getting her nerves under better control, so it would be fantastic to see her reincorporate a 3-3.

BackStage Barbie · Sep 21, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Um.... no. A clean Kostner is a seven triple Kostner who will get great GOEs and PCS due to her speed and reputation. She would likely be very much ahead of Czisny on SS, C and T and likely the other two components as well. A clean Czisny will get stellar GOEs on her spins and spiral, solid for her footwork, and very little for her jumps. Clean Kostner wins on BV, PCS and likely GOEs. Of course, a clean Kostner is not something to bet the house on (though how about this - Kostner-Czisny go 1-2 at Worlds).

Agree with the rest, though.

Perhaps there was a little personal opinion in that statement. I love Czisny and cannot stand Kostner so that is that is that.

mskater93 · Sep 21, 2011

MrScroogeMcDuck said:
I believe that Mroz has a quad lutz because I've seen it and he executed it at a competition (albeit a minor one). I will believe that Mirai has a reasonably reliable 3A when I see it.

It was a beauty that scored over 14 points for the one element. Saw the video on USFS youtube page!

Jammers · Sep 21, 2011

And why exactly does Kostner have this stellar reputation among the judges? She's as much a headcase as Alissa has been. It was brutal to watch her skate at Worlds 2009 or the Winter Olympics. I've rarely seen a skater with her reputation skate so badly.

skfan · Sep 21, 2011

Jammers said:
And why exactly does Kostner have this stellar reputation among the judges? She's as much a headcase as Alissa has been. It was brutal to watch her skate at Worlds 2009 or the Winter Olympics. I've rarely seen a skater with her reputation skate so badly.

come on, kostner at least beats czisny on speed. it isn't *just* reputation. i'm only pointing at the obvious and not commenting on vague things such as, when i watch AC skate she looks so nervous it makes me clench my teeth before every single one of her jumps.

i would call neither of them reliable. the idea of 1-2 finish for these two appeals to me, and yet, at this moment, not having seen the 3z-3t from AC yet, i also can't help wondering, what happened to mirai, and just how much did the other ladies splat to put these two on the podium.

but then without kim, ando, with lepisto still in rehab... * shrugs *

doubleflutz · Sep 21, 2011

Jammers said:
And why exactly does Kostner have this stellar reputation among the judges? She's as much a headcase as Alissa has been. It was brutal to watch her skate at Worlds 2009 or the Winter Olympics. I've rarely seen a skater with her reputation skate so badly.

I'm really not a fan of Carolina, but her skating skills in terms of her speed and flow are really exemplary, better even than Yuna. Her skating skills are probably the best of any senior lady skating right now. Her jump technique itself is quite good, she's just a headcase. There's not much wrong technically with her jumps when she hits them, it's not even a situation like Mirai where the technique of her jumps is fine, she just has problems getting them fully around. She's capable of doing technically perfect 3LZ-3LO, 3F-3T and even in practice 3-3-3s that have tons of speed going in, height, ice cover, and flow coming out. Most of Carolina's issues are mental, and if she'd ever got over them and learned to compete, she would have been a better jumper even than Yuna, that is why she has the reputation she does. Alissa by contrast isn't even in the same league. She never gets any flow out of her jumps, and she's often tilted or leaning in the air. They're not really small, but they aren't that big either. They're never easy, always telegraphed. Other than her extension and her world-class spins, she is completely inferior to Carolina on a physical, technical level. They're both headcases, sure, but as a skating athlete, Carolina is better than Alissa by an awful lot. Artistically and performance-wise, that's a different matter, but a lot of that is personal preference anyway.

R.D. · Sep 21, 2011

Oh Kostner. I always use her as an example of REPUTATION SCORING still alive and well in the post 6.0 world...

Granted, when she bombs she's giving little room for padding, but even when she is mediocre the scores are higher than expected. 2008, 2011 worlds to name a couple. Oh well, what are you gonna do.

krenseby · Sep 22, 2011

R.D. said:
Oh Kostner. I always use her as an example of REPUTATION SCORING still alive and well in the post 6.0 world...

Granted, when she bombs she's giving little room for padding, but even when she is mediocre the scores are higher than expected. 2008, 2011 worlds to name a couple. Oh well, what are you gonna do.

I wonder if you are equally prepared to talk about cases of reputation judging with American skaters. It's really tough to do that when the skater is from your own country and you are posting on a board filled with that skater's fans.

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 22, 2011

Jammers said:
And why exactly does Kostner have this stellar reputation among the judges? She's as much a headcase as Alissa has been. It was brutal to watch her skate at Worlds 2009 or the Winter Olympics. I've rarely seen a skater with her reputation skate so badly.

She often has amazing programs. She has seven triples with a triple-triple. She medalled at the right time. She has tremendous speed. If Kostner is clean, she'll earn most of those PCS and GOEs (I agree with prettykeys there). She was the sole European canadidate for about three seasons. She's from the same country as the boss. ETC etc. That stated, she (like Chan) benefits from the structure of COP scoring, namely the divorce of PCS from errors in the elements. Additionally, she benefits from the structure of the PCS, which is about 40% skate, 40% skater, 20% program, so nearly two-thirds of the PCS is locked in stone before stepping on the ice (which is true for every skater).

Hey, krensby, I'm Canadian. I've seen my federation refered to as the mafia here, I've seen Patrick Chan reviled because of the scores he received (and not just for his multiple fall skates. He can be perfect - see the 4CC short - and his scores will trigger more disdain than admiration). Virtually every top Canadian skater has seen their scores dismissed due to SC politicking. The US Federation does seem weaker in that regard, though there are obvious examples, but none for the ladies recently, imo.

Olympia · Sep 22, 2011

I love Alissa, but I can't argue with the point that Carolina is superior to her in terms of jumps and speed. Kostner has the loveliest triple-triples, when she can muster them up. At her best, she combines technical strengths with artistry.

Alissa isn't as strong in terms of jumps, though she takes a back seat to no one on the planet these days when it comes to spins. I'd put her up there with the greats of all time, such as Ruh and Lambiel. It's wonderful to see that her jumps are getting steadier. She'll never be a YuNa Kim in terms of height and coverage, but she'll have enough (I hope and pray) to keep her in contention so she can wow us with her spins and musicality.

I hope both these lovely and slightly delicate ladies have a banner year. When they skate, they make me see something new in the music they use. I hope to see them in fine fettle all the way to the GPF and Worlds.

reynycpr · Sep 22, 2011

Olympia said:
I hope both these lovely and slightly delicate ladies have a banner year. When they skate, they make me see something new in the music they use. I hope to see them in fine fettle all the way to the GPF and Worlds.

Best statement I read so far :thumbsup:

lcd · Sep 22, 2011

Very smart, good music choices for her. Both are classics, but I think brought to the forefront most by some very musical ice dancers, would be my observation. La Vie en Rose was a gorgeous exhibition program from last season from Maia and Alex Shibutani. Valse Triste was iconic with Rahkamo and Kokko back 20 years ago, and more recently, by Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir. Of all the ladies singles skaters, Alissa would be the best match to once again bring a lovely interpretation which matches the creativity and loveliness of these ice dancers.

christinaskater · Oct 4, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baXsIoWx9EM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Japan Open LP!

I love Alissa! Beautiful triple-triple!

christinaskater · Oct 6, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fjxEs6a_vA

I love her 2010-2011 GPF Free Skate!

kwanatic · Oct 7, 2011

I thought the program was nice but...

It would have been nice to see her branch out a bit, out of her comfort zone. She carries soft music well but I think something a little different would have been interesting. I'm glad she's challenging herself and going for the more difficult jumps. At this point, she's the only one in terms of the established US ladies who is actually pushing to compete with these younger skaters. Both Ashley and Mirai were very noncommittal when it came to including 3-3s in their programs...I really hope that Alissa (of all people!) trying a harder combination will rub off on the other girls and push them to up their technical ante as well.

The core group of the US girls (Rachael, Mirai, Ashley) seem to be content with where they are, competing amongst themselves. You'd think they'd be looking behind them at these Russian girls and adjusting their plan accordingly. I could totally see Adelina and Liza T wiping the floor with those three...the only advantage the US girls have right now is seniority and maturity, both of which Adelina and Liza T only need a year or so to gain and improve upon. But not for one second do I think that the judges will hold one of the newer girls down (especially those two) to boost Rachael, Mirai or Ashley up this season.

I really hope those three step up this season and Alissa too. I also hope to see Agnes and Christina emerge as top competitors as well.

Jammers · Oct 7, 2011

It really is sad that the only US lady who seems to be really going for it is the weakest jumper of the whole bunch so thumbs up to Alissa who at least seems to want to get better and compete with the Russian girls . Mirai, Ashley and Rachael all seem to be happy with the status quo. Which quite frankly is mediocrity.

R.D. · Oct 7, 2011

Sad? Ironic is more like it...

Mrs. P · Oct 8, 2011

Jammers said:
It really is sad that the only US lady who seems to be really going for it is the weakest jumper of the whole bunch so thumbs up to Alissa who at least seems to want to get better and compete with the Russian girls . Mirai, Ashley and Rachael all seem to be happy with the status quo. Which quite frankly is mediocrity.

I doubt Rachael was happy with her 2010-2011 season. That's pretty obvious to me. While she did not follow through on her 3X3 plans in 2011, that was reflective more of her injuries (as we later found out) and less that she didn't want to go for it. Rachael, when not injured, is capable of 3X3. She has received full credit for them in the past. Now that she's healthy (methinks), I expect that she's going to attempt them again. As I said in the Rachael thread we have yet to see her this year, so it's hard to say what path she'll take this year.

Also, let's not forget Agnes Z or Christina Gao. Both of them have had credited 3X3 as well. And in juniors we got Courtney Hicks and Gracie Gold going for them (and both also have received credit for them in summer comps).

I guess my point is that Alissa is not the only U.S. lady going for 3x3s. Alissa has received so much attention for hers because she hasn't done it since 2005.

Czisny plans triple Lutz-triple toe for Skate America

ImaginaryPogue

R.D.

prettykeys

BackStage Barbie

mskater93

Jammers

skfan

doubleflutz

R.D.

krenseby

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

reynycpr

lcd

Match Penalty

christinaskater

christinaskater

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

Jammers

R.D.

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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