2013 Worlds Ladies SP

breeze · Mar 14, 2013

prettykeys said:
Protocols are up:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

Thank you! A few immediate questions I had...

1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

I'm just a casual (and not knowledgeable about protocols) viewer, and would appreciate any explanation..

Kinga · Mar 14, 2013

Ziggy said:
It is very easy to comprehend. Kostner had the best skating skills by far, the best choreography by far, the best transitions by far, the program was presented beautifully and that fall aside absolutely everything else was of exceptional quality.

This is not enough for that score, IMO... Especially in the SP.
And transitions were not that many.
And it is not like Kanako or Katelyn presented crappy programs. Kanako was sublime. Osmond was pizzaz.

treeloving · Mar 14, 2013

Ziggy said:
It is very easy to comprehend. Kostner had the best skating skills by far, the best choreography by far, the best transitions by far, the program was presented beautifully and that fall aside absolutely everything else was of exceptional quality.

I totally agree with you, her line and extension is just stunning! But her spin is far from best though!

pangtongfan · Mar 14, 2013

Ziggy said:
If anything she was overscored. Second 3toe was slightly cheated, 3flip was slightly cheated. Her back is stiff and there wasn't much else in her reaction to the music than moving her arms up and down.

Ambitious element layout which paid off but the program was meh.

I don't understand how you can say that her interpretation was far better when you had skaters who had far more upper body movement, used their whole body to interpret the music and that movement reflected the character of the music very well. Murakami has a lot of work to do in that area still.

I suspect now that it is clear Miki is finished (regardless of if she attempts a hopeless comeback or not next year, which frankly I doubt) and Suzuki is old and already maxed out, the Japanese are probably putting alot of push behind Murakami, other than Mao she is the one they are supporting most for now and next year, and after next season when Mao likely retires she will get their full support as their #1 barring some exceptional junior coming up.

sk8ingcoach · Mar 14, 2013

Judges are permitted to give -2 instead of -3 for a fall, if the first part of the combination was good. And her components IMO were better than anyones. I dont see the terrible flaws that others see

and for those who keep saying that carolina's jump content is not difficult enough ?? her content is actually more difficult than what Ashley's. Yes she fell but her components were high enough to keep her in 2nd

sky_fly20 · Mar 14, 2013

berrycute said:
and the Alena lovers. This board is cray-cray sometimes.

is there such a thing ??? :laugh:

koatcue · Mar 14, 2013

I think Osmond was underscored, Gracie underscored, Ashley and Caro overscored but not by much, Yuna should have been higher, of course. The class of the field, imo

FlattFan · Mar 14, 2013

Compare 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place

Solo jump
Caro's 3Loop have been getting +2 +3 this season. Here, she got some +1. Total is 6.4
Kanako's 3flip is odd looking, and her toe pick is not nice at all. Even with the bonus, she only got 6.23
Kaetlyn's 3flip is good, and she got 6.7

Combo jump
Let's give Caro 0 for her second 3T. She would have gotten 4.1 for the first one. So, in this element, she was overscored by what? 2.4 points?
Kanako's combo was borderline, so she's lucky she got full credit.
Kaetlyn's combo was great, good score for her.

Now, everything else, Caro is gaining points on them left and right, like her steps, her 2A, etc...
At most, she's overscored by 2.4, and that means give the 2nd 3T 0 points.

So I don't think her score was out of line at all. Kanako was lucky to be in second. Kaetlyn is good, but not there yet.

Alvyne · Mar 14, 2013

Art&Sport said:
Call it how you see it, and I'll call it how I see it. I'm not saying that Canada doesn't have good skaters. I love Meagan and Eric and they were absolutely fabulous. I enjoy watching their grit and determination too, and MT/M are wonderful skaters. I'm not a fan of Patrick, but I respect his skating. I don't respect how the judges so often cater with humongous scores, even when he has made mistakes. Patrick deserves to be in first place, but the scores were quite wacky in the mens sp.

I love W/P, G/P, and M/I, and I respect V/M's talent. However, D/W and V/M are so close in talent and it stinks the fact that V/M has to come out on top in the big ones and Canadian fans constantly dis D/W with this snobby, nose-in-the-air attitude. D/W deserved to win Worlds last season, and D/W have performed better than V/M as a whole this season. But Worlds are in Canada, and I'll be surprised if D/W win gold no matter how great they skate. PJ Kwong has already called it, "a fine cheese will win over Kraft singles." I like Osmond too, but suddenly just because Canada has some talent in the ladies division, Osmond right out of juniors is a World medal contender ... NO! Kevin Reynolds can land quads now, but no attention is really being paid to his lack of well-rounded skills, just the fact he lands quads (with some discounted URs) means Reynolds is also a World medal contender.

Call it bitter if you like. There's a lot wrong with this sport.[/QUOTE]

Then why are you singling out Canadian skaters specifically? There are plenty of skaters getting questionable marks, but the only ones you complain about are the Canadians. What have they done to you?

Colanboy · Mar 14, 2013

sk8ingcoach said:
Judges are permitted to give -2 instead of -3 for a fall, if the first part of the combination was good. And her components IMO were better than anyones. I dont see the terrible flaws that others see

and for those who keep saying that carolina's jump content is not difficult enough ?? her content is actually more difficult than what Ashley's. Yes she fell but her components were high enough to keep her in 2nd

Where did you get this from? The only time I've seen -2s given instead of -3s is for extenuating circumstances (such as when Patrick Chan hit the boards in the middle of his quad combo)

Mrs. P · Mar 14, 2013

breeze said:
Thank you! A few immediate questions I had...

1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

I'm just a casual (and not knowledgeable about protocols) viewer, and would appreciate any explanation..

1.) Some judges may compensate the -1 to -2 point (the lip was likely not severe so judges are told to take out -1 to -2) if the jump has other positive qualities like height, flow, etc. So she's likely down to 0 or even +1 for the positive aspects of the jump.

2.) I'm confused about judges giving a +2. But it looks like one judge did so---it's just an outlier, if you ask me.

3.) Mao got -3 for not doing the required triple or double jump. Caro, in theory should get -3 across the board...but perhaps they did not because she stayed upright on the first jump...

Moment · Mar 14, 2013

breeze said:
Thank you! A few immediate questions I had...

1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

I'm just a casual (and not knowledgeable about protocols) viewer, and would appreciate any explanation..

1. I don't see anything wrong with Yuna's takeoff edge, but "unclear" takeoff edge (w/ an edge call) doesn't require -GOE.

2. They're trying to encourage the 3A by giving out ridiculous GOEs.

3. Anything other than a solo triple out of steps in a SP MUST receive -3 from all the judges.

creme cup · Mar 14, 2013

breeze said:
Thank you! A few immediate questions I had...

1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

I'm just a casual (and not knowledgeable about protocols) viewer, and would appreciate any explanation..

1) Maybe some judges are sitting on the fence about the edge call. Things like that happen in 'e'ed or '!'ed jumps.
2) +2? Seriously?? Wow
3) There is no strict guide of GOEs for popped jumps but somehow Caro's pop looked better, I guess? Kidding. I have no idea it surprised me.

Ziggy · Mar 14, 2013

bigsisjiejie said:
Your opinion only. I thought it was one of the most enjoyable programs of the day.

But you're not supposed to judge programs based on how much you enjoy them or not. There's a set of criteria you're supposed to reward.

parma said:
I thought Murakami was able to get what she got because of her backloading of the triple jumps.

Yes, the 10% bonus gave her a huge score boost.

Kinga said:
And transitions were not that many.

There were transitions into each of the elements other than the combination. And out of pretty much each element as well.

ffionhanathomas · Mar 14, 2013

On another note, does anyone else think Yuna's layback has really improved? Looks faster to me.

Kinga · Mar 14, 2013

Ziggy said:
If anything she was overscored. Second 3toe was slightly cheated, 3flip was slightly cheated. Her back is stiff and there wasn't much else in her reaction to the music than moving her arms up and down.

Ambitious element layout which paid off but the program was meh.

I don't understand how you can say that her interpretation was far better when you had skaters who had far more upper body movement, used their whole body to interpret the music and that movement reflected the character of the music very well. Murakami has a lot of work to do in that area still.

You know, too much of the upper body movement can be just awkward. And Carolina is slowly approaching that line. Her facial expressions were also just... weird, lets put it mildly. Sometimes less is more.

bigsisjiejie said:
Your opinion only. I thought it was one of the most enjoyable programs of the day (Kanakos).

Agree

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 14, 2013

Ziggy said:
It's just unbelievable. Not only was it two-footed, it was also very noticeably cheated (under 1/4). GG judges.

It is very easy to comprehend. Kostner had the best skating skills by far, the best choreography by far, the best transitions by far, the program was presented beautifully and that fall aside absolutely everything else was of exceptional quality.

I agree she has excellent skating skills and choreo. But process this for a moment... the woman sitting in 2nd place had a fall on a triple toe-triple toe, and her other two elements were a triple loop and a double axel. One of the easiest jump layouts of the competition, with a fall, is sitting in SECOND.

Mirunna · Mar 14, 2013

creme cup said:
1)There is no strict guide of GOEs for popped jumps but somehow Caro's pop looked better, I guess? Kidding. I have no idea it surprised me.

Caro didn't pop a jump, she fell, which is not as bad as popping a jump. And since it was on the second part of the combination some judges gave it -2. I don' agree though. A pop is a mandatory -3 in the SP

Ziggy · Mar 14, 2013

breeze said:
1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

It doesn't require negative GOE. It requires the judges to deduct -1 to -3. So the judge who gave it a +1 could have thought the jump was of +2 quality and the change of edge was slight so deducted -1 for it. In theory. There was also a gap after the steps, though.

breeze said:
2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

Judges failing to notice very apparent mistakes is very usual, yes.

breeze said:
3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

-3 is automatic if you don't make the required amount of revolutions.

A fall is -3 off the GOE. So if a jump was exceptional in all other phases you could end up with GOE above -3. There is also the first jump in the combination to consider.

Having said that, she also underrotated and two-footed the second 3toe so all the judges who gave her less than -3 are blind or clueless.

FSGMT · Mar 14, 2013

breeze said:
Thank you! A few immediate questions I had...

1) Doesn't the 'e' require negative GOE from the judges? Yuna got -2 to +1 on her flip.

2) Mao got -2 to 2 on her 3A. Is this usual?

3) Mao got all -3 for the popped loop. Why didn't Caro for her combo followed by fall?

I'm just a casual (and not knowledgeable about protocols) viewer, and would appreciate any explanation..

1) no, the "e" doesn't force the judges to give a negative GOE (a fall or a clear step-out does, for example), it depends on how clear the edge is and on the quality of the jump, Yu-Na's jump was high and with a beautiful landing, so a GOE between 0 and -0.5 is correct;
2) yes, in 2007 the GOEs for her 3A went from -2 to +3!
3) because a single jump is against the sp rules: it has to be a triple jump preceeded by steps; if there is a fall, the GOE has to be negative, but it can also be -2 (especially if it's a combo), if the quality of the jump(s) is really good, or if there is a mistake just in one of the parts of the combo/sequence: Caro's first 3T was clean and beautiful, and her speed/air position/height etc. were excellent, so some of the judges decided to give -2 instead of -3.

2013 Worlds Ladies SP

breeze

Kinga

treeloving

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

sk8ingcoach

sky_fly20

Match Penalty

koatcue

FlattFan

Match Penalty

Alvyne

Colanboy

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Moment

creme cup

Ziggy

ffionhanathomas

Kinga

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mirunna

Ziggy

FSGMT

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