2014 Japan Open

giulia95 · Aug 18, 2014

Kalina said:
To be honest when it was announced that JSF had submitted entry for Yuzuru to skate in Finlandia Trophy I immediately thought that the reason this was possible was that either Daisuke or Mao were going to skate at Japan Open JSF is sanctioning Japan Open after all, and I did not see why his participation in Finlandia Trophy would have been allowed otherwise, whatever he decides to do. I don't think that if all parties involved wanted him to be there, but he did not, that he would have the power, or be in the position to refuse. There might be other issues underlining everything that we are not aware of, maybe related to the sponsors. How much power do the sponsors have over the choice of the competitors? :confused2:

Can JSF /sponsors force Yuzu or any other skater to partecipate against his will actually?

NMURA · Aug 18, 2014

giulia95 said:
Can JSF /sponsors force Yuzu or any other skater to participate against his will actually?

Any eligible skaters must face the consequences when they refuse directions or demands from the federation.

This year's JO gives a good opportunity for the JSF, TV media and sponsors to check the real popularity of figure skating in Japan. How much ticket sales and ratings can be achieved without particular "stars"?

Meoima · Aug 18, 2014

NMURA said:
Any eligible skaters must face the consequences when they refuse directions or demands from the federation.
This year's JO gives a good opportunity for the JSF, TV media and sponsors to check the real popularity of figure skating in Japan. How much ticket sales and ratings can be achieved without particular "stars"?

:no: Are you really Japanese, NMURA? Sorry for being OT. :scratch:
I have a feeling you always sound very businesslike. I am not sure you even like any of the skaters you are talking about.

giulia95 · Aug 18, 2014

NMURA said:
Any eligible skaters must face the consequences when they refuse directions or demands from the federation.

Thanks for the replay!

What kind of consequences ?

hanca · Aug 18, 2014

NMURA said:
Any eligible skaters must face the consequences when they refuse directions or demands from the federation.

This year's JO gives a good opportunity for the JSF, TV media and sponsors to check the real popularity of figure skating in Japan. How much ticket sales and ratings can be achieved without particular "stars"?

It also depends whether the JO is so important for Japanese Federation that they would think it is worth to demand that Hanyu skates there even if he doesn't want to. Considering that Hanyu is their best chance for having future worlds (and possibly Olympic) medals, it is in their best interest to support him in whatever he wants to do and not to try to antagonize him for things that are not that important for them. It would be different if they didn't have enough of other skaters to send to Japan open, but as they do have someone else, why forcing Hanyu? Besides, for winning Finland Trophy Hanyu gets points towards world ranking. I don't think he would get anything for winning Japan Open. (Not that he desperately needs the extra points, but the more points the better).

NMURA · Aug 18, 2014

Of course, the JSF can "force" Hanyu to skate JO. If they didn't choose to do so, they must have other reasons. I can imagine if Hanyu "failed" to fill the void of Asada and Takahashi (for sure), it could be damaging for Hanyu himself and the future of FS businesses in Japan. They would not like taking risks. That's the reasoning of risk-averse middle class persons.

vadrouille · Aug 18, 2014

@NMURA
Why do you think that Yuzuru and many others young skaters like Patrick Chan or Yulia can not fill the void of Asada or Takahashi? Especially for this one year where these two skaters want to take a break? They can not be there every year for many years from now on. One day, Japan Open must have new Japanese skaters for Team Japan, the same for others skaters who participate as Team America or Team Europe. I can not imagine that only fans of the two skaters will buy the tickets for Japan Open and fill all the seats.

For me, I prefer to watch Yuzuru, Fernandez, Patrick Chan, Pluschenko and the young Russians Yulia, Elena than Asada or Takahashi. But of course I don't live in Japan so I can not be a potential spectator for Japan Open, so the sponsors don't bother.
Vadrouille

NMURA · Aug 18, 2014

Chan? Yulia? How can you imagine they can fill the void of Asada and Takahashi in JAPAN? Absolutely not. Most of the Japaese fans are interested in Japanese skaters who can compete at the top level. Hanyu might be able to fill the void of Takahashi, but not Asada's. In Japan, men are mostly the appendix to ladies. There wouldn't be Takahashi's status as a "star" without Asada. Hanyu is not much different from Takahashi at this point. I still think that Mao is the only star who can earn both audiences and ratings. This year's JO will be a commercial failure "as expected". Hanyu can avoid to "share the loss" as long as he stays out of it. It's a wise decision after all. Even the JSF doesn't want to hurt his reputation as a "star".

putting aside money for a while, the JSF's interests are
test the #3 man. Kozuka is in a difficult position. Mura's share is up after winning 4cc.
test Murakami and Miyahara. who is more reliable and worthy of "pushes" in this season?

Alain · Aug 18, 2014

NMURA said:
Hanyu might be able to fill the void of Takahashi, but not Asada's. In Japan, men are mostly the appendix to ladies. There wouldn't be Takahashi's status as a "star" without Asada. Hanyu is not much different from Takahashi at this point.

Wasn't it in the news that a good deal of WC-2014 showed up on the secondary market when it was annonuced that Takahashi would't compete? Some of them were sold out for half-price or less. So there is a difference if Hanyu fanbase was not in a hurry to buy those tickets. Eventually many of those who couldn't sell still attened the WC I quess. The arena looked fine that time.
Ladies used to be more popular in Japan. Nowdays it's probably not much.
You can say the same thing- without Takahashi there wouldn't be Hanyu status. Silly to deny that. It's rather disappointing for his home fans that he doesn't want to keep it at the certain level, as well as sport in general in Japan.

NMURA · Aug 18, 2014

Saitama Worlds was Mao's event. I would say Hanyu was still an appendix. Takahashi's withdrawal caused only minor effects. How much "numbers" can Hanyu earn without Asada (and Takahashi)? There are series of tests - NHK trophy, GPF, Japanese nationals, 4cc, worlds, world team trophy...
He doesn't need to do JO just to shake his confidence too early. :laugh:

shiroKJ · Aug 19, 2014

^I don't think it matters too much even if he doesn't sell out 18,000+ seats. :laugh:

He's only been on the "center" stage for 2 seasons, even if he is a champion now. It took Mao and Dai several years to develop the cult following that they have now. In the beginning of their careers they weren't selling out huge arena's by themselves either. If Hanyu's DVD sales are any indication, he should be fine. They might not be making as much money off Hanyu as they did Mao+Dai, but at the very least they'll still be racking up $$$ which is, of course, the most important thing

Kalina · Aug 19, 2014

Alain said:
Wasn't it in the news that a good deal of WC-2014 showed up on the secondary market when it was annonuced that Takahashi would't compete? Some of them were sold out for half-price or less. So there is a difference if Hanyu fanbase was not in a hurry to buy those tickets. Eventually many of those who couldn't sell still attened the WC I quess. The arena looked fine that time.
Ladies used to be more popular in Japan. Nowdays it's probably not much.
You can say the same thing- without Takahashi there wouldn't be Hanyu status. Silly to deny that. It's rather disappointing for his home fans that he doesn't want to keep it at the certain level, as well as sport in general in Japan.

You seem to avoid mentioning that 'a good deal' of Daisuke fans were refusing to sell their tickets to fans of Hanyu.
There is not doubt that Daisuke paved the way for what men's figure skating is now in Japan right now, how important he was and is for figure skating all over the world. Still, I fail to see how Hanyu is a disappointment to his own fans and sport in Japan in general

laugh

for missing out, for unknown reasons, on Japan Open, the sponsor-driven and non ISU-sanctioned cheesefest, after a year where he has won Olympic gold, Worlds gold, GPF gold and appeared in almost 40 shows. As if Daisuke and Mao always appeared in Japan Open due to the kindness of their hearts and not because they were forced to do so because they belong respectively to the main sponsor and the organizing agency of the show.
As for me personally, as a fan of Yuzuru's who does not live in Japan, I'm glad he doesn't appear there as it's an event I never liked and never will. I much prefer him testing out *both* his programs in a relatively stress-free environment as is Finlandia Trophy. I don't know if his own Japanese fans are disappointed that he's not going to be there this year, but I'm sure they understand the sponsor-related issues and the workings of JSF better than we do and I hope they realize that Yuzuru trains full-time in another country and that there's only one of him - he cannot be expected to fill in the shoes of two stars at the same time.

mich2 · Aug 19, 2014

NMURA said:
Chan? Yulia? How can you imagine they can fill the void of Asada and Takahashi in JAPAN? Absolutely not. Most of the Japaese fans are interested in Japanese skaters who can compete at the top level. Hanyu might be able to fill the void of Takahashi, but not Asada's. In Japan, men are mostly the appendix to ladies. There wouldn't be Takahashi's status as a "star" without Asada. Hanyu is not much different from Takahashi at this point. I still think that Mao is the only star who can earn both audiences and ratings. This year's JO will be a commercial failure "as expected". Hanyu can avoid to "share the loss" as long as he stays out of it. It's a wise decision after all. Even the JSF doesn't want to hurt his reputation as a "star".

putting aside money for a while, the JSF's interests are
test the #3 man. Kozuka is in a difficult position. Mura's share is up after winning 4cc.
test Murakami and Miyahara. who is more reliable and worthy of "pushes" in this season?

Mao wasnt in all JO events, was she? Daisuke was doing well in selling tickets without Mao. WTT in 2012 was a successful even too. If Hanyu is now the same level as Takahashi as you say, how could he possibly be refusing to skate in JO because of fear to face the embarrassment as a ticket sale failure. You are failing logic, sorry.
Do you really believe that usual people will think of some business risk policy of Hanyu as the reason of his absence in JO? No, they will think that empty seats are caused partly by Hanyu absence who was logically expected, not the opposite. How can it possibly contribute in his future popularity is beyond me.

mich2 · Aug 19, 2014

Kalina said:
You seem to avoid mentioning that 'a good deal' of Daisuke fans were refusing to sell their tickets to fans of Hanyu.
There is not doubt that Daisuke paved the way for what men's figure skating is now in Japan right now, how important he was and is for figure skating all over the world. Still, I fail to see how Hanyu is a disappointment to his own fans and sport in Japan in general laugh for missing out, for unknown reasons, on Japan Open, the sponsor-driven and non ISU-sanctioned cheesefest, after a year where he has won Olympic gold, Worlds gold, GPF gold and appeared in almost 40 shows. As if Daisuke and Mao always appeared in Japan Open due to the kindness of their hearts and not because they were forced to do so because they belong respectively to the main sponsor and the organizing agency of the show.
As for me personally, as a fan of Yuzuru's who does not live in Japan, I'm glad he doesn't appear there as it's an event I never liked and never will. I much prefer him testing out *both* his programs in a relatively stress-free environment as is Finlandia Trophy. I don't know if his own Japanese fans are disappointed that he's not going to be there this year, but I'm sure they understand the sponsor-related issues and the workings of JSF better than we do and I hope they realize that Yuzuru trains full-time in another country and that there's only one of him - he cannot be expected to fill in the shoes of two stars at the same time.

Kalina, where do your ideas come from? When you want to resell or buy tickets, you go to the special websites. They want to know your credit card number. The deal is done. Nobody asks whose fan you are. Its good that you want to support your favorite skater. Its lame that you do it by libelling other fans.

Camillo · Aug 19, 2014

Kalina said:
As for me personally, as a fan of Yuzuru's who does not live in Japan, I'm glad he doesn't appear there as it's an event I never liked and never will. I much prefer him testing out *both* his programs in a relatively stress-free environment as is Finlandia Trophy. I don't know if his own Japanese fans are disappointed that he's not going to be there this year, but I'm sure they understand the sponsor-related issues and the workings of JSF better than we do and I hope they realize that Yuzuru trains full-time in another country and that there's only one of him - he cannot be expected to fill in the shoes of two stars at the same time.

Second that.
Japanese fans had plenty of opportunities to watch their champion during ice shows this summer, they still have NHK trophy and Japan Nationals, CoC and WC in Shanghai, FCC in Seoul (literally Japan's next door).

It's no good to be greedy, guys

. Fans from other parts of the world has the right to see live performance of their WC and OC.

(P.S. IIRC, the same talk "Mao-Dai are cash cows and Hanyu is not" was going on and on before, in previous JO threads - arguments hadn't changed, only some usernames. Very amusing.)

Kalina · Aug 19, 2014

mich2 said:
Kalina, where do your ideas come from? When you want to resell or buy tickets, you go to the special websites. They want to know your credit card number. The deal is done. Nobody asks whose fan you are. Its good that you want to support your favorite skater. Its lame that you do it by libelling other fans.

Obviously, 'I have been told so' - you would not find an article saying this, if that's what you mean. I thought it was pretty clear: or I would have cited a source, posted a link to an article etc. If it was not clear: it's a rumour. To be more precise -- I replied with speculation *to* speculation, since Alain seems to know from her sources what the Hanyu fanbase is interested in or not. Then again, the dealings between fans are not often material for official articles.
I have been writing on this board for quite some time as you can see from my join date, and I see that you are rather new and we probably haven't discussed in the past. So I will say this again -- if I say 'some' I mean exactly that, I don't mean 'all' and I don't mean 'you'. 'Some' fans have been behaving in a certain way, on both sides. It's a reality. I don't like it, whichever side it comes from -- I don't like extremes. I tend not to bring the question to attention just to bash, but since it seemed relevant to the topic in question, I did. I encourage you to do the same from your side if you feel like it, so that we can condemn this kind of behaviour together, which is causing useless friction.

Returning in topic: The more I think about it, there more I don't know how much power the JSF actually has over the choice of competitors. IMO, all evidence points to the fact that the sponsors and IMG make the choices with little to no input from JSF. This year, besides Hanyu's absence, Takahito Mura was also preferred over Tatsuki Machida. Tatsuki is the clear #2 to Hanyu right now, nationally and internationally: he could have used the chance to solidify his position and to experience leadership, maybe gain some more popularity.

vadrouille · Aug 19, 2014

Thank you NNMURA, Kalina et all other posters for your explainations. Now I understand better what it is Japan Open and the star status in Japan for fans of skaters like Mao and Takahashi. I hope that next year Mao and Takahashi can come back to Japan Open to make theirs fans happy and the sponsors happy again. I think the sponsors know what they are doing. They will make their money.
I am also happy for others skaters who have an opportunity to skate at this year Japan Open. I am glad Yuzuru will skate at Finlandia Trophy instead. He always skate great at FT and the audience just loves him.
Vadrouille

demarinis5 · Aug 19, 2014

I am looking forward to Japan Open and COI, great group of skaters have been invited
to compete and to particpate in COI and as a bonus Plushy will perfrom as a guest artist.

Alain · Aug 19, 2014

NMURA said:
it could be damaging for Hanyu himself and the future of FS businesses in Japan. They would not like taking risks. That's the reasoning of risk-averse middle class persons.

NMURA said:
Hanyu might be able to fill the void of Takahashi, but not Asada's.

I am sure if hypothetically speaking Asada didn't compete in JO-2014 but Dai did, there wouldn't be any risk aversion.

Kalina said:
You seem to avoid mentioning that 'a good deal' of Daisuke fans were refusing to sell their tickets to fans of Hanyu.

I am not. I simply can't mention something that I've never heard of.

demarinis5 said:
I am looking forward to Japan Open and COI, great group of skaters have been invited
to compete and to particpate in COI and as a bonus Plushy will perfrom as a guest artist.

COI could be in a better luck this year. I am more curious who will be in Team Europe this year. Plushenko unlikely, he's not physically ready for LP. Stephane?

Miss October · Aug 24, 2014

Anyone else thinking the JO organizers are panicking trying to find a 2nd NA lady or a 2nd Euro guy? I know they usually have one or two they leave until the end, but this time, I don't even know who they have to choose from! Plushenko is already being a "guest." Maybe Florent or Stephane? For the ladies

Kaetlyn? Gracie? Mirai?! Polina?!?! Headache if ever I seen one...

It was like last year when they had Irina come back...I was like, WHAT?! She's great, but of all the choices of young, up-and-rising skaters...

2014 Japan Open

giulia95

NMURA

Meoima

Match Penalty

giulia95

hanca

NMURA

vadrouille

NMURA

Alain

Match Penalty

NMURA

shiroKJ

Back to the forest you go.

Kalina

mich2

Match Penalty

mich2

Match Penalty

Camillo

Kalina

vadrouille

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Alain

Match Penalty

Miss October

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