Savchenko/Massot twist not a level 4?

Can someone please explain to me why Savchenko and Massot are not achieving a level 4 on their split triple twist? Aljona seems to be getting the 45 degree split and it's more than high enough. Can anyone fill me in?

It's not easy to get a level 4 twist. Skaters need to perform at least 4 of the 5 listed features: 1. Steps before the element 2. The woman has to hit a split position before starting the rotations 3. The man's arms go down below his shoulders while the woman is in the air 4. Varied arm position for the woman while rotating (Wenjing Sui usually does that in the SP) 5. Unassisted exit (basically the lady doesn't use her arms/hands when coming down from the twist)
Aliona and Bruno (like most teams) don't attempt the arm variation, so they need to hit all the other 4 features: they have steps before but they are quite easy so likely they don't always get credit for that, the split needs to be with both legs at least at a 45° angle from the vertical axis of the body and Aliona's left leg is usually lower, I think they perform well the other two features: Bruno's arms go down while she rotates and she has her arms up when coming down (unassisted exit).
Their biggest problem is the split, but it's very hard to achieve that constantly. Evgenia Tarasova is one of the best in that regard.
I think for Aliona and Bruno it would be smart to work on the quad twist: they have the height and it's less risky for Aliona's ankles, in that way even if they get a level 2 they still earn a lot of points

Yeah their twist should be a level 3, I think though...her split isn't large enough most of the time but the entry is pretty subjective and honestly I don't think any teams have that difficult an entry. The height is just amazing though.

Their GOE should be higher than Tarasova/Morosov, I honestly don't think T/M's twist is all that visually pleasing because her air position is too upright...If T/M get lvl 4 + 2.1 S/M should get lvl 3 at least with +3 (more than perfect )

i think the best for them is to totally ditch the split attempt and go for the quad and try to hit bullet 1,3,4 and 5. Im sure without that split attempt she can even go higher giving her time to finish the quad twist and do an arm variation( Tano). The steps are very subjective and even me who is not an expert can tell there's a big pause after their steps.

I personally find these regulations stupid. Who cares about the split position. That twist is insane. If it was easy to achieve such height, everyone would be doing it. I think their twist should be rewarded better, since it's the best in the world and them getting lower points for it than other teams is ridiculous, split position or not.

I think the split adds more difficulty to the element than how high the lady gets flung.

I just find it odd that uglier elements get rewarded over more visually pleasing ones in an aesthetic sport, just because they're a tad more difficult. But that's not the only case of such rules in FS, so I just have to swallow it, I guess.

SimplyLex said:

I personally find these regulations stupid. Who cares about the split position. That twist is insane. If it was easy to achieve such height, everyone would be doing it. I think their twist should be rewarded better, since it's the best in the world and them getting lower points for it than other teams is ridiculous, split position or not.

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In my view, this is another way in which the IJS bullet point system, whether for GOE or for levels, is undervaluing some of the basic features of what makes certain elements great. It seems to be a problem in both pairs and singles.

Height in a twist is one, but both height and distance on jumps of all kinds would be another. Centring and not travelling on spins. Synchronizing SBS elements such as jumps and spins.

I support adjusting value for degree of difficulty, but in burying some of these basic features as just one more bullet, the scoring is losing sight of the forest for the trees.

Intricacy does increase difficulty but the scoring of fundamental excellence should not relatively devalued by he system.

SimplyLex said:

I just find it odd that uglier elements get rewarded over more visually pleasing ones in an aesthetic sport, just because they're a tad more difficult. But that's not the only case of such rules in FS, so I just have to swallow it, I guess.

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Well, if we're going that way should S/M's beautiful throw 2A score more than D/R's quad sal? It's probably because it's easier that they can get to the stage of making it aesthetically pleasing.

But I do think the throw is one of those elements that should have a higher base value compared to the lifts, for example.

TGee said:

In my view, this is another way in which the IJS bullet point system, whether for GOE or for levels, is undervaluing some of the basic features of what makes certain elements great. It seems to be a problem in both pairs and singles.

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I think you hit the money with this statement in terms of my feelings on how technical elements are scored today.

I think it would be smarter to work on the 4Tw but given that they can't use it in the SP, they might not see the point.

Wow, thank you for asking and resolving this issue, I've been wondering this myself. And thanks for the lesson, I had no idea of all of this.

SimplyLex said:

I personally find these regulations stupid. Who cares about the split position. That twist is insane. If it was easy to achieve such height, everyone would be doing it. I think their twist should be rewarded better, since it's the best in the world and them getting lower points for it than other teams is ridiculous, split position or not.

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I'm not an expert but I agree with this hahaha

bobbob said:

Their GOE should be higher than Tarasova/Morosov, I honestly don't think T/M's twist is all that visually pleasing because her air position is too upright...If T/M get lvl 4 + 2.1 S/M should get lvl 3 at least with +3 (more than perfect )

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T&M's twist is utterly gasp-worthy as well. I've never seen a crowd that didn't react to it. There are only three levels of plus GOE and 7 levels total counting the 0. There are many more pairs teams in the World. I don't think we can expect the judges to reserve the +marks for only three teams. And all three twists mentioned--Savchenko & Massot, Sui & Han, and Tarasova & Morosov--are just spectacular. I think it's hard to validate a full point of separation between these three teams on this element based on GOE.

I really do not understand why it is so hard for Aljona to achieve the diffcult setup and the split position. She got it with Robin several times. Do they really not get the Wow-effect if they go for level 4?

And why is she not going for the tano?

Their coach said that they had practiced the 4Tw a bit. The main problem is that Aljona has to rotate earlier. But it did not seem to be a big challenge. IMO they wil add the 4Tw next year.They just wanted to try the harder throws first because the process needs more time.

My suggestion would be: Ditch the 4STh and go for the 3ATh and 4Tw and the Gold is theirs.

^^ seems so simple for you doesn't it?

I think we can appreciate here the difference skating with another partner. Some elements are proving more difficult for Aljona skating with Bruno than with Robin... it's normal of course.... I know very little about technique in skating but I bet timing on a twist is super important... and from what you say here, if Aljona has to rotate much earlier for a 4twist, perhaps it messes up her timing for the 3Tw..... so it could become a very difficult thing to master both elements...

I think Sui Han attack both their triple and quad twist differently and that may be why they are successful : one has the tano variation, the other doesn't.

Regarding the split position... again, without being an expert, I also notice it's not great... Even teams not known for their flexibility or position get rewarded on that bullet point much easier.

BTW : just food for thought.... other teams have great twists... seeing them live is a completely different experience for me. I was impressed with I/M's triple twist... it's spectacular as well... Extremely high. Beautiful position. D/R have now received level 4 for theirs (i think they rework their entrance into it)... I wasn't expecting it to be as high and spectacular as I/M but I was pleasantly surprised... (mentioning Canadian teams because I just saw Nationals live there).... James and Cipres also have spectacular EVERYTHING elements...

So when it comes down to height and power : all these teams have it.... yet, of course, I can assume that from videos, S/M have perhaps the highest of them all, but the others are pretty darn high too.... There's a point where a team or a skater will not get rewarded for the highest element compared to others because yes, indeed, they do it higher, but other teams also reach a very good distance as well... Just food for thought here... If a lady has a massive triple lutz, she will get that bullet, but another lady with a good one, will also get that bullet...

coldblueeyes said:

Well, if we're going that way should S/M's beautiful throw 2A score more than D/R's quad sal? It's probably because it's easier that they can get to the stage of making it aesthetically pleasing.

But I do think the throw is one of those elements that should have a higher base value compared to the lifts, for example.

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I've said elsewhere that if folks make consistently make the point that IJS undervalues basic good jump technique, such as height and distance, we will find ourselves in agreement.

And that naturally extends to my appreciating the position of those who find that the Montreal school assisted jumps aren't as big as some others....(although as 4everchan has noted, seeing them live when they have hit their stride in the season is something else.)

But to say that Aliona's jumps with Bruno are beautiful when so many are landed on two feet, with effectively nil running edge is boggling. I believe that they've taken a step back to the 2A ( a junior pairs level jump) in order to ensure that they get the essentials right... I respect that, but let's also include one foot landings with a clear and correct running edge, and full rotations with height and distance among the essentials.

And let's also apply the same standard for height and distance in the ladies discipline....

I don't think the split for the twist is a flexibility issue at all, because 45° from the vertical axis is not that much, I believe it's more of a timing and quickness issue, since they have to hit the split and then get into the tight rotation position VERY quickly.
Regarding the quality vs. difficulty topic I think for the twist is actually very well conceived: level for difficulty and GOE for quality. Tarasova/Morozov's twist might not be as high as Savchenko/Massot's but it's big, smooth and effortless so it deserves to score very well. For throws, considering the not very high BV of quads and 3A, I think the quality of the element is still very relevant (hence Aliona and Bruno's great score even with 2A and 3S).
topic:For jumps (especially in singles) I do believe quality has become meaningless: people like Medvedeva or Shoma Uno shouldn't get those crazy GOEs for their jumps, no matter how many transitions or arm variations they can perform. Maybe adding levels to the jumps could be a good solution: have "features" for difficulty and "bullets" for quality, that way Shoma's spread-eagle 3A and Han Yan's gigantic 3A can score similarly, and Hanyu's effortless counter 3A can score some more since it has difficulty AND quality. It seems fair and not that difficult to put into action (levels would be called by tech panel as for spins, twists, lifts and steps), but apparently for the ISU the super confusing 10 GOEs for the next quad are a better idea:confused2:

TGee said:

I believe that they've taken a step back to the 2A ( a junior pairs level jump) in order to ensure that they get the essentials right... I respect that, but let's also include one foot landings with a clear and correct running edge, and full rotations with height and distance among the essentials.

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Ehm, they were doing 2A because Aliona's injury wasn't fully healed, not because they need to revert back to junior level elements to get their technique right

4everchan said:

So when it comes down to height and power : all these teams have it.... yet, of course, I can assume that from videos, S/M have perhaps the highest of them all, but the others are pretty darn high too.... There's a point where a team or a skater will not get rewarded for the highest element compared to others because yes, indeed, they do it higher, but other teams also reach a very good distance as well... Just food for thought here... If a lady has a massive triple lutz, she will get that bullet, but another lady with a good one, will also get that bullet...

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Well it is fascinating how the Twist changed the last 10 years. In Turino 2006 T/M won with a twist which would probably not get 5 points today:yawn:. The Chinese started to increase the height and the angle of the lady´s position. V/T focused more strongly on this element and made it a consistent first big element in every program. Today there a many exquisite twists by T/M, J/C, S/H, Sc/Kn and Y/Z:clapper: and one monster which goes through the roof from S/M.

D/R and especially St/Kl should be lucky that there are not more successful Quad twists right now because their triples are not of that quality, although they get quite many points for this element.

I wouldn't place D/R in the same category as St/Kl who have a very deficient twist which usually gets negative GOE. I agree the other teams you have mentioned all have superior twists but as I said, some other teams meet the requirements as well.

Not only have standards of excellence changed on the twist, technique is evolving and reconciling internationally too.

Ilyushechkina and Moscovitch found the twist the hardest at first. Their Russian and North American techniques were very far apart.
We are beginning to see quite extraordinarily high twists from them finally in this season. The one at nationals was

But it took two and a half seasons of taking the twist apart again and again to reconcile their technique and find a way to something at a high level of quality.