skating careers

Re: It is not for sale

Engrsktr, I'm afraid I'm thinking along the same line with Mathman. I sincerely believe you've not bashed Michelle. It's perfectly fine to point out Michelle's weaknesses, that's your point of view and everyone should respect yours. But Michelle fans would disagree with you because they have their own opinions too. So it's natural that they rebut you. No matter, personal attacks are unwarranted. You were objective in your criticisms regarding Michelle's technical progress at the beginning but as time went by I'm afraid your posts began to sound like criticisms without basis. You appeared to start losing your objectivity in your later posts. Some of them were:

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1. "well you find me a skater that doesn't think so and I'll show you someone who is VERY secure within herself.... michelle isn't one of those people... she shows up faithfully EVERY year for 10 years..... I just believe that shows either a ton of personal insecurity, or an ego run amuck.... either way I wonder what happened to the athletes that could bow out gracefully with OR WITHOUT a medal... "

2. "Interesting question.... Kristi could have stayed around for YEARS and still have won..... but she didn't ..... she had specific goals and she had simply accomplished them and had nothing to prove to herself...... so what does michelle, for example, have to prove to herself.... "

3. "..... they are always going to be better than most of the up-and-comers.... and therein lies the problem... if they can always be as good as the newbies, then why have any new skaters... just let them reign as national champion and world champion until they retire from old age! (as old as that can be nowadays! "

4. "the thing is is that they wouldn't win simply because of michelle's name and reputation... the sport is judged - by humans - who have favorites and those they dislike - just like all of you...... it's been the pattern since the beginning and it has been said in this forum that a young skater has to pay her dues - if that's not favoritism, I don't know WHAT is!"
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Honestly, how can anyone see those as objective criticisms? It's not so much because they say negatively of Michelle, it's more because of how baseless those statements are. To me they do sound biased in one way or another. They are different from "I think Sasha's artistry is more superior than Michelle's" which is fine with me. It's just MHO on your posts.

Re: It is not for sale

Mathman:
I can see how one would misconstrue my comments as "malevolent" or not very objective.... but that may depend on how one reads them... we are all limited in this particular means of communication...... sometimes it leaves a lot to be desired... in any case... since I said I wasn't commenting on the issue any longer I won't.. but I will reply to the comments questioning my objectivity....


has it NEVER been true (if you ask yourselves dispassionately) that michelle may have had a little padding for her technical merit?
-Did Kristi not pull out all the elements she could do when she needed to do them? Did michelle do that when she was facing tara at worlds or Irina (I can't remember what year - sorry)...
-Michelle herself put her hands to her face after her 97 nationals performance... she fell multiple times.... she was embarrassed.... and I think we'd all agree that that was her worst performance...
-Did she not get silver when she faced people who had the triple/triple combos? I would consider that not coming through as far as winning the competition.
-I guess I did push buttons when I read some certain people's poems and other people's somewhat forceful comments...
-Michelle wouldn't be where she is today if she had to do figures.. it would have taken MUCH longer for her to reach this level... I think we'd all agree on that....
-Is it not true that if you look at the numbers mathman that it would be almost impossible for someone who was around for 4 years to do as many triple/triples as someone who's been around for 10 years and they are of comparable caliber? I think we'd agree on that - we are both knowledgable about numbers....
-some people (not all) DID take my comments personally - it is evident in some of the remarks.. an open minded person would in fact take the chance to put their being a fan to the side and be objective.. it is clear that some did not by the comments...... would you disagree?


I tend to think that people that stay around and keep trying an trying and trying for something are a little desperate to get what it is they are going for......... I just think after a while it ends up becomming meaningless... that is my opnion if that is in fact what she is doing - I didn't say that is what she is doing but I question it...
there are many skaters that stick around too long on the quest for something that they may never have.. (not to say michelle won't get the olympic gold if that is what she is aiming for).... for example maria butyrskaya(sp)..
these last comments below the space represent my opinions OFF the original OBJECTIVE subject matter of her technical merit....
So I believe I was objective in the original meaning of the thread....

Re: It is not for sale

Michelle came through at the 2000 and 2001 Worlds by doing a 3/3 and skating clean.

I'm just going to quote Michelle:
"People tell me that the competitive edge goes away, trust me it doesn't go away I'll be 60 and saying ' I can do the triple Lutz, I swear I can still do it!' "

"Why quit what you love doing?"

Michelle already has all the money she needs, more medals than any other U.S. Figure Skater, and more endorsements than Tara or Sarah...so I think it's safe to say that she is doing it b/c she really does enjoy it. There are some skaters who love skating, but don't want to be in it forever, there are other skaters who will be in skating almost all their lives. I think MK is in the latter category.

Re: It is not for sale

May I ask why it bothers you so much that Michelle does stay in the competitive ranks? She's no more denying any younger skaters a place on the podium than she is me. If someone is the best at something, why make them stop? Because you don't like that they're the best? That's rather unfair. It's like telling Sasha Cohen she needs to stop performing her Charlotte with the perfect split because she does it too well, and darnit, she might intimidate some other skater from trying. Baloney.

And as for the 'what if's', to use a quote I heard once, "If 'if's" and "but's" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!" Speculating on what might have been or what could be is pointless. You can't change the past and you can't see into the future, so deal with the here and now. I'm sure plenty of people had Michelle pegged for an Olympic gold in 1998 and 2002, but it didn't happen, and if she wants one more go at it, why is that a problem? She'll have to compete for a place on the Oly team like everyone else and if she gets outskated, she won't make the team. It's how sports work.

It's like someone mentioned on another board...during 2002, she didn't have a coach, and a lot of her basic skills regressed. Her jumps didn't have the same spring, her footwork wasn't crisp, and her spins were far too slow. To me, this year was more of a "let's get the basic skills back and THEN work on the harder stuff". She has said she knows she'll need harder 3/3, but you don't get those if your current arsenal of jumps is lacking. So you get the regular triple jumps back up to par and then you add on. Helps avoid injury, which Michelle has been extremely fortunate to do.

This post is starting to take on rgirl length, so I'll sum up by saying if Michelle is too old and should be put out to pasture, so should Irina, Elena, Fumie, Jennifer Robinson, Viktoria Volchkova, and Shizuka Arakawa. There were two other skaters competing whose names I don't remember but I believe were the ages 26 and 28. Competing at Senior Worlds! Even though they knew they weren't going to win! The gall!!

Re: It is not for sale

I said I would no longer handle this topic but since you pointedly ask me........

actually no I won't handle this question anymore because it's too hard to verbalize in this forum in a way that won't be either immediately misunderstood or immediately discounted (because afterall it is only my opinion and I seem to be in the minority.... )
what I will say is this:
it is easy to say that the reason I think she should retire and turn "professional" is because I don't like that she dominates or because I don't like HER for some reason... it's convenient and if it works for you then have at it...I know that's not my reasoning....
and yes we are in the here and now but we learn from the past... precedence in skating can be a valuable tool in understanding what's going on in the here and now.....

Re: It is not for sale

<em>Sorry but this is just another way to say Michelle Retire alreayd so my skater can be top dog. </em><img src="http://<img src="http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/edoom/Lurkin"/>

Re: It is not for sale

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sure my view will be drastically unpopular because a lot of people here seem to be michelle kwan fans - it's not that I am not a fan but like I said, I don't have a favorite skater - so what I have said probably won't be taken with a grain of salt...[/quote] I want this going-nowhere thread to end as much as anybody, but just want to weigh in as a longtime Kwan-neutral, although I am definitely a fan of Michelle's performances at Nats and Worlds, and someone who really does not have a favorite skater. Engrsktr, on your "Objectively Speaking" thread I said I thought you had some valid points in general about the role of 3/3s in ladies skating, that I found many of your arguments interesting, and that I hoped you stayed around GS and spoke your mind, but that basically I thought you were not seeing the forest for the trees in terms of Michelle and her not doing a 3/3. Your views here are "unpopular" with me, that is, I disagree with them, not because I'm a Michelle fan who sees everything through Michelle-colored glasses but because I find your arguments to lack logic; use ad hominem attacks against Michelle; and because there is a double standard running through them. I also think, and want to emphasize, that the reasons people who are avid Kwan fans have disagreed with you on this thread have absolutely nothing to do with them being fans of Michelle but with the weakness and illogic of your arguments, not to mention the sprinkling of personal attacks against Michelle throughout. Also, the continued insistence that your POV is being misunderstood, that you are being unfairly personally maligned, and the sheer repetition of the same arguments, despite your assertion that you wanted to have a "discussion" on this issue tells me that you have another agenda. I'm all for giving the minority view its rightful place in any discussion on GS, but IMO there is an important difference between presenting one's minority view and <em>insisting</em> that one's view is right simply because it is the minority view. IMO, throughout this thread you simply keep repeating your opinion and when responding to others' posts, you have not seemed to try to comprehend what they've said, but rather it seems you just keep responding with the same arguments, over and over, no matter what others say. I'm not saying you should change your opinion. If that's your view, that's your view, but why keep reiterating the same points without truly responding to what others have said? In fact, here's a quote from your last post that I think is appropriate to the situation:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I tend to think that people that stay around and keep trying and trying and trying for something are a little desperate to get what it is they are going for......... I just think after a while it ends up becomming meaningless...[/quote] In the context of you trying and trying to insist that you are right and everybody else is either a blind Kwan fan or just wrong, ITA with this quote. What you are doing has ended up becoming meaningless.

In my experience, GS is generally a forum where many points of view have a home and generally there is a good-faith effort to welcome newcomers with minority views. But lack of logic in any argument regarding any skater will be pointed out. I don't think people are attacking you personally, it's just that the quality of your arguments is very poor, your biases are evident, and people are saying so. I'd still like you to stick around GS because you do bring up some interesing issues. But if you hold on to weak arguments like a dog with a sock in its mouth and don't know when to say "We will have to agree to disagree," then people will take you to task for going too far. We want to hear a variety of views otherwise we wouldn't be on a general forum, but nobody wants to be hammered over the head with "I'm right! I'm right! I'm right!" I can't speak for others, but IMO, it's your discussion skills or lackthereof, not your opinions, that I think have caused most people, including myself, to lose patience with you.
Rgirl EDB

How'd this get off track?

No one's probably reading this thread anymore because it seems to have gotten a bit out of hand. I actually went back to see where things started to deteriorate....I was surprised that happened somewhere in the 3rd page when the question of egos came up.

So, I'm just going to add my 2 cents

Sorry if I make anyone feel picked on

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">skating still has that line between eligible skating and "professional" skating...as long as the line exists, I will always think that once a skater has reached his/her plateau and stops changing and growing as an amateur it is time to move on.... it's not like you can't compete as a professional....! </blockquote>

First, there's not much pro competing left. Since Dick Button sold Candid productons, the quality of the World Pro competition has gone downhill. There were a couple of pro-ams, but the pro's generally seem to be staying away from this type of competition. The only purely pro competition I can recall from this year was a team event. So, if someone wants to compete, there's no place to compete as a professional.

Second, you seem to be implying that someone should quit when there's no growth. Well, there are a lot of skaters who thought about giving up, but made comebacks and found a new path. Irina and Elena being prime examples. Rgirl who is definitely not a Kwaniac has had much to say this year about MK's changes. If any of these 3 ladies had quit, we would've missed their re-surgence. They can not be accused of resting solely on their laurels. It takes a lot of hard work just to maintain this level of conditioning and technique.

So far, the only skaters who I thought should quit were Maria B and Elvis. Maria because she was treacherous to watch and was never consistent - then we would've missed her becoming the oldest woman to win Worlds. I've always enjoyed Elvis's skating, but his injury hampered his last years as an amateur.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">there are many skaters that stick around too long on the quest for something that they may never have</blockquote>

True, but if you don't try, you'll never know if you could've accomplished it either. Maria might not have won her Worlds. That's part of the challenge. If the goal is still viable, what's wrong with going after it?

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">I was simply trying to get to a root discussion.... </blockquote>
The initial post seems to be saying that it's not ok for a skater to stick around if they aren't growing. Based upon some of the examples above and ones that others have cited, none of the current eligibles are lacking in some kind of growth. If you're refering to a lack of learning new skills - jumps being the most obvious - there are can be very subtle changes that may not be appreciated. Also, there's nothing wrong with being an intelligent competitor. Sasha was very wise to no longer attempt the quad in competition - great she was pushing the envelope, but to the detriment of her overall skating and her placements. IMO, MIke Weiss has the same problem - he's so worried about the quad that he's lost his consistency. MK has done the 3-3 in the past - admittedly not as often as some of her competitors, but it wasn't just the 3-3 that gave the competition their wins.

Re: How'd this get off track?

Hmmm, I think its time for this thread to end. I, for one, am now officially dizzy from it! LOL Feel free to PM each other if there are still things people want to discuss but I am going to go ahead and close this thread now.