2014 Skate America Ladies FS 10/26

[Sandpiper]

Finally, finally watched all the LPs; big thanks to the kind soul who uploaded B. Eurosport to Youtube (and Mao88 for linking to it).

Radionova: Cranked out all her content admirably, and the deserving winner. But I just can't love the program. Until the parts at the end when she remembered to perform, it looked like a lot of "I'm doing what my choreographer told me to." As chaotic as the SP was, at least she sold the daylights out of it. Here... not so much. I think it's just the wrong program for her.

Tuktamysheva: Love the program and performance. Too bad the jumps didn't work as well as they could've. I would probably have her ahead of Radionova in P/E... but I understand why the judges thought otherwise, with that silly mistake on the final pose.

Gold: I liked the first few seconds of the choreography... but once the jumps began, it became the same plastic smiles and one-note performance. That being said, I have no objection to her placement; her tech got destroyed due to the dumb doubles Zayak rule, so the overscored PCS were just compensation for that.

Cesario: I'm not quite as sold on this program as some seem to be (talking about the "Best Carmen ever!!!" claims)... but I certainly did enjoy it, and I can see why others find it so amazing. What struck me wasn't the movement, but her expressions. :yes: Under 6.0, the gutsy opening combo and 7 triples would've been a massive challenge laid out.

Park: Lovely and graceful, fall aside. However, imo, tech and artistry were both good, but not great (in this particular competition).

Nagasu: Emotionless, seemed totally concentrated on the elements. Polar opposite of Samantha Cesario in terms of expression and projection.

Gedevanishvili: If you're going to skate to lyrics, Aguilera is one of the hardest to pull off--talk about vocals overpowering the skater.

Imai: Wonderful arms, I like the concept of the skate. It just needs a little more refining... more connection between the different parts, a bit more matching between the choreography and the music. Perhaps she'll improve the program over the season.

Meite: Unfortunately didn't make much of an impression, compared to her short. Needs to up the quality of her elements (jump landings, first spiral, spins).

Han: So glad she managed to climb out of last place! Good variation of tempo and choreography that fit the music. Jumps are rather low though.

Popova: I feel the same way as I did during her short... Very expressionless and empty (not in terms of empty choreography, but in terms of "devoid of emotion and meaning")

 

[Miss Ice]

I like that, too. But smiling and blowing kisses isn't for everyone. Gracie's POTO has her smiling all through her performance and projecting to the crowd. That's completely inappropriate. Why? She is smiling when a man dies in the lyrics. Point is, smiling and all those things you speak of are not appropriate for every performance. And just because someone doesn't have it doesn't mean there aren't emotions.

Some of the best performances in FS have none of what you speak of: kisses, fist-pumps, winking, smiling, or even engaging the audience by attempting to make them cheer or something like that. I think people seem to forget that there are emotions other than happiness and joy that can be expressed on the ice.

Yep, completely agree. I love Plushy and he always did these things when they actually fit the music. When he skated serious things like Najinsky, Tosca, or the Godfather he didn't really smile or do anything playful. Great post :agree:

 

[[email protected]]

well, if a program is really that BORING, even bored the audience to murmur, that must be very very boring. but why so many people here, not even fans, love to watch her program more than 10 times..
Like I said, she will have plenty of outings in the future, just go watch her live, you will see

One of the answers is that some people are missing Yuna and hope that So Yun is the reincarnation. In fact, so far there's no one else around among Korean youngsters to show promise to challenge the Russians (I am not talking about revenge here ) in 2018. That's why all the hype. And these high expectations and comparisons may put the unnecessary pressure on So Yun same as the pressure on Gracie for being the US #1 lady.

And I will see So Yun live in a couple of weeks.

 

[yyyskate]

^^ Yeah, go watch her yourself

 

[Sabrina]

I watched most of the programs on you tube. For me, the best program was Cesario's Carmen. Radionova is so energetic, wonderful to watch, but she had so many little jerky movements, that certainly was reflected in her GOE mark. She deserved to win, as no other skater was good enough. Samantha was amazing but not good enough for number 1. But she was much better when compared to Gracie Gold. How was possible for Gracie to receive this bronze medal gift is beyond my understanding. In my mind she may be 5th even 6th. Sam and the Korean girl war ahead of Gracie, by far...stupid judges.

 

[mskater93]

Well... she definitely lost weight after going to Frank and seems to have put a few pounds back on over the summer. I actually thought she was too thin at the end of last season and seems healthier looking now. If we're talking about weight (which apparently we are ), to me the skater who needs to lose a few is Liza. Her costumes seem to be designed to hide this.

No, Liza does NOT need to lose weight. Her ex costume showed how very tiny she is!!

 

[mskater93]

I watched most of the programs on you tube. For me, the best program was Cesario's Carmen. Radionova is so energetic, wonderful to watch, but she had so many little jerky movements, that certainly was reflected in her GOE mark. She deserved to win, as no other skater was good enough. Samantha was amazing but not good enough for number 1. But she was much better when compared to Gracie Gold. How was possible for Gracie to receive this bronze medal gift is beyond my understanding. In my mind she may be 5th even 6th. Sam and the Korean girl war ahead of Gracie, by far...stupid judges.

As I posted earlier, live was a different story. Sam was very slow live and Park was very introverted in her delivery such that it was a nice program to pretty music but not presented in a way to make it stand out.

 

[Mathman]

No, Liza does NOT need to lose weight. Her ex costume showed how very tiny she is!!

Like every competitive skater, all she has to do is wear costumes that are well-fiitted and she will look great.

 

[andyjo24]

If someone wants to be an introvert, great, but expect the PE and IN to be affected (and the other PCS marks as well) unless there is something VERY special about the choreo and how they are able to draw in.

But out of all of Park's PCS components, her PE and IN are the highest

 

[Sorrento]

I have a question about this Zayak rule on double jumps: why Gracie's combo 2S+2T+2T was counted as invalid? Was it because she reperted 2T three times insted of 2? And as long as 3rd 2T was a a part of the combo- it was all count as invalid? Or is there a different reason for it? I've been re-reading that ISU rules and still feel like dumb about it. Help, anyone?

 

[karne]

If we're talking about weight (which apparently we are ), to me the skater who needs to lose a few is Liza. Her costumes seem to be designed to hide this.

*grinds teeth and screams* LIZA. DOES. NOT. NEED. TO. LOOSE. WEIGHT. SHE. IS. NOT. FAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a question about this Zayak rule on double jumps: why Gracie's combo 2S+2T+2T was counted as invalid? Was it because she reperted 2T three times insted of 2? And as long as 3rd 2T was a a part of the combo- it was all count as invalid? Or is there a different reason for it? I've been re-reading that ISU rules and still feel like dumb about it. Help, anyone?

Yes, the Zayak rule now applies to doubles as well. Not at all a stupid rule IMO, though one that is obviously going to take the coaches and skaters a little while to get the hang of, as seen by Gachinski's dilemma - after popping the opening 4T into a 2T, and then only doing a 4T-2T for his second jump pass, he had no 2Ts left and I don't think he knows how to do any other kind of combination.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, the Zayak rule now applies to doubles as well. Not at all a stupid rule IMO, though one that is obviously going to take the coaches and skaters a little while to get the hang of, as seen by Gachinski's dilemma - after popping the opening 4T into a 2T, and then only doing a 4T-2T for his second jump pass, he had no 2Ts left and I don't think he knows how to do any other kind of combination.

To me, your example of Gachinski shows exactly why is is a stupid rule. A skater should be able to skate his program as choreographed to the best of his ability. If he makes a mistake he loses points for the mistake. But he should not face the extra burden of having to keep track of the consequences of early mistakes and rechoreograph his program on the fly.

Gracie doubled an intended triple in her first combo, and lost points because of it. Fair enough. Should we also take away her 2S done near the end of the program?

 

[StitchMonkey]

Yes, the Zayak rule now applies to doubles as well. Not at all a stupid rule IMO, though one that is obviously going to take the coaches and skaters a little while to get the hang of, as seen by Gachinski's dilemma - after popping the opening 4T into a 2T, and then only doing a 4T-2T for his second jump pass, he had no 2Ts left and I don't think he knows how to do any other kind of combination.

Curious. Why do you feel the entire element should be invalidated for it though? In Gracie's case, she completed a legitimate 2S+2T and tacked on a 2T at the end that was invalid. Why should the first half not get something point wise? To me it seems that using the +REP rules that they are using for repeated jumps that were intended to be in combination but either had a fall, or an interruption type issue. They don't get full credit for the other, they still get a deduction, but do get some credit for what was done. That seems more appropriate and consistent than the zero out that we are seeing.

 

[unico]

Curious. Why do you feel the entire element should be invalidated for it though? In Gracie's case, she completed a legitimate 2S+2T and tacked on a 2T at the end that was invalid. Why should the first half not get something point wise? To me it seems that using the +REP rules that they are using for repeated jumps that were intended to be in combination but either had a fall, or an interruption type issue. They don't get full credit for the other, they still get a deduction, but do get some credit for what was done. That seems more appropriate and consistent than the zero out that we are seeing.

I agree. Invalidating entire combinations for one single jump is ridiculous in my opinion. In the case of Gracie Gold's 2A+2T and then 2S+2T+2T

1) Either manually downgrade the 3rd 2T and score it as a one-less revolution jump (therefore she would get the value of 2S+2T+1T),
2) omit the singular invalid jump of the combo (2S+2T+2T*, so only the value of a 2S+2T even though it still counts as a 3-jump combination),
3) score it as 2S+2T+2T+REP, so the entire combo is multiplied by a factor of 0.7,
4) or even mark it as 2S+2T+2T*+REP so both the 3rd 2T is invalidated and the rest of the combination is multiplied by a factor of 0.7.

For reference, from Communication no. 1884:

In Short Program jumps which do not satisfy the requirements (including wrong number of revolutions) will have no value, but will block a jumping box, if one is empty; if a combination of two double jumps is not allowed (Sr. Men & Ladies, Jr. Men), the jump with the original lesser value (before any consideration of signs <, <<, e) will not count (e.g. 2Lz+2T*, 2T*+2Lo, 2F<<+2T*).

In Free Skating however, if any part of the combination is not according to the requirements, the whole combination will be deleted: 2Lz*+2T*, 2T*+2Lo*. If the same triple or quadruple jump is executed twice as a solo jump in Free Skating, the second execution will be marked with a sign “+REP” (the base value will be that of the original jump multiplied by a factor 0.7, rounded to two decimal places).

 

[OS]

If someone wants to be an introvert, great, but expect the PE and IN to be affected (and the other PCS marks as well) unless there is something VERY special about the choreo and how they are able to draw in.

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

The different between a qualified judge (with years of knowledge and experience) vs an average audience (looking for instant gratification and cheer for home favs) are completely different. Quality judging should be capable to decipher music meaning, intention, purpose, interpret the choreography delivery,to judge on quality of creative decisions making and whether the skater successfully delivered the program construct in all aspect as intended. Popularity should have no bearing on the PCS, but I do realise often do, but I'd argue that is usually due to judging's inability or lacking conviction on PCS criterias so rely on these 'indicators', but actually that shouldn't be the way to reward PCS categories. Otherwise skaters like Misha Ge should deserve the highest PCS in PE/IN in every competition he has entered since he is usually one of crowd's favs because his style is naturally one of people pleaser.

Then it comes down to the question what makes people bored? If people are bored through unfamiliarity (music/skater/restlessly waiting for home favourites) then it would not be a valid reason to discount the work either. How about expectation? If the audience are only ever used to seeing pantomime and used to a certain style of delivery, is it at all possible they can be 'bored' when confronted with unfamiliarity? Is it at all possible work can be appreciated through second viewing and later reflection? Are all work designed to please only those in the arena at that competition for a few minutes or something more?

Are there room for modest, intelligent, compassionate, sensitive, subtle lyricism in this sport? If you tell me PCS can not reward these things, then I might as well give up the sport now.

By the way, my interpretation of the music edit is that it is a 3 part character progression monologue, that is why personally I don't have a problem with this direction of interpretation (other than the parts i have noted), although certainly I can understand why some people may have a problem with it on face value.

Although a skipping, jumpy, happy, smiley winking, flirty, hands waving Juliet complete with 'I heart you' hand sign and air kiss smacker while dying horribly may appeal to certain live audiences, I am afraid it is well beyond David Wilson's capability. May be SoYoun can consider changing to Morozov and pick Carmen next year.

 

[yyyskate]

os
"dying horribly" what about rolling-floor-3-times dying choreo

Here is the the last sentence from this movie trailer
"give me my romeo and when he shall die, cut him out into little stars, he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will be in love with night..."

and here is the movie trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTGWNHa1wIQ

EDIT: I have to mention again here that the music cut is 3 "night" themes music from the movie sound track.

 

[karne]

IMO, the new Zayak rule encourages variety in combinations. I mean, what do we see otherwise? 3A-2T, 3F-2T, 3Lz-2T-2T. Let's get some half-loop combos going. Or loop combos! Or, crazy thought! Maybe someone will once again take up Plushenko's challenge, and do a 3A-halfloop-3F - how epic would that be?

I really don't have a problem with it, yes, even now when my most loved skater has had a whoops fail with it.

Curious. Why do you feel the entire element should be invalidated for it though? In Gracie's case, she completed a legitimate 2S+2T and tacked on a 2T at the end that was invalid. Why should the first half not get something point wise? To me it seems that using the +REP rules that they are using for repeated jumps that were intended to be in combination but either had a fall, or an interruption type issue. They don't get full credit for the other, they still get a deduction, but do get some credit for what was done. That seems more appropriate and consistent than the zero out that we are seeing.

Because it's not that simple. The third jump still affects the other two jumps. It affects the landing of the second jump, the way the second jump is taken off from - heck, it affects the skater's mindset the whole way into the combination. You can't just shut your eyes and pretend the third jump didn't happen.

The Zayak rule has always caused whole combinations to be thrown out. Why are you all only getting crazy about it now?

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The Zayak rule has always caused whole combinations to be thrown out. Why are you all only getting crazy about it now?

Some people, like me, have always complained that this rule is too harsh. That's not something new at all.

 

[cooper]

apparently you can't even post "wave to judges" on this forum anymore.. how in the world is that even unnecessary?? it's an opinion about pcs or whatever which seems relevant..or pointing a gun to the judges via james bond or shaking booty during the program of bolero.. geez.. the paranoia..

Actually... not really. Introvert interpretation are necessarily when music/choreography requires it. It is about what is best appropriate, not which style is better. What you have just stated seems to imply there is little room for introspective music or introspective interpretation unless it is something really special.

The different between a qualified judge (with years of knowledge and experience) vs an average audience (looking for instant gratification and cheer for home favs) are completely different. Quality judging should be capable to decipher music meaning, intention, purpose, interpret the choreography delivery,to judge on quality of creative decisions making and whether the skater successfully delivered the program construct in all aspect as intended. Popularity should have no bearing on the PCS, but I do realise often do, but I'd argue that is usually due to judging's inability or lacking conviction on PCS criterias so rely on these 'indicators', but actually that shouldn't be the way to reward PCS categories. Otherwise skaters like Misha Ge should deserve the highest PCS in PE/IN in every competition he has entered since he is usually one of crowd's favs because his style is naturally one of people pleaser.

Then it comes down to the question what makes people bored? If people are bored through unfamiliarity (music/skater/restlessly waiting for home favourites) then it would not be a valid reason to discount the work either. How about expectation? If the audience are only ever used to seeing pantomime and used to a certain style of delivery, is it at all possible they can be 'bored' when confronted with unfamiliarity? Is it at all possible work can be appreciated through second viewing and later reflection? Are all work designed to please only those in the arena at that competition for a few minutes or something more?

Are there room for modest, intelligent, compassionate, sensitive, subtle lyricism in this sport? If you tell me PCS can not reward these things, then I might as well give up the sport now.

By the way, my interpretation of the music edit is that it is a 3 part character progression monologue, that is why personally I don't have a problem with this direction of interpretation (other than the parts i have noted), although certainly I can understand why some people may have a problem with it on face value.

Although a skipping, jumpy, happy, smiley winking, flirty, hands waving Juliet complete with 'I heart you' hand sign and air kiss smacker while dying horribly may appeal to certain live audiences, I am afraid it is well beyond David Wilson's capability. May be SoYoun can consider changing to Morozov and pick Carmen next year.

very well said..

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Let's get some half-loop combos going

Please no!! Half loop combos make my brain hurt. I honestly think maybe one out of twenty look good. Maybe not even that high. I try to not complain too much about styles of skating that irk me but the half loop is different.

The only thing I'm interested in seeing punished harder though is falls.