2016 Skate America Men's FS

[Li'Kitsu]

I'm not saying that any criticism here of Shoma is bad. Criticise away. I objected to one factual inaccuracy of what had been said. As for the comments of some in the fanfest about 'negative bickering' it isn't something I've said. In my view one has to always keep in mind the difference between The Edge and a fan fest. However, comments moaning about negativity in The Edge towards a fave are, as I said above, not a rarity in fan fests. I have certainly seen many such in other fan fests, including Hanyu's.

And those on their own are perfectly fine - you just decided to ignore the actual point of what I was saying. Dismissing everything and blaming it all on 'afraid Yuzu fans' - which are ill-founded accusations doing exactly what they impute others to do. And sure it might happen in other FFs too, which is not the point here though.

I'm not going to drag this out any further, and I'm not going to reply to it in the Shoma FF, since it doesn't belong there. But some people need to either grow a backbone and discuss things here where people can answer, or at least not drag out arguments under the disguise of not wanting to drag them out where they are 'save' because the other party won't see it.


And btw, I'm trying to see it and went back through random pages of this thread - and really, I saw one harsh comment. I'm seeing more harsh criticism on Jason or Adam than Shoma, actually (and I'm far, far, faaaaaar from an Adam fan )

 

[Yatagarasu]

Oh Please who appointed you the Fan Fest Police. If you find the comments you quoted from Shoma's FF were a personal attack against you, insulting, abusive or discriminatory in any way report it to the Mods, that is correct way to handle posts that are perceived to be offensive. Meanwhile I will continue to freely post my thoughts and opinions.

And in the style of a typical uber, you miss the point completely.
Yes, you're more than free to write whatever, did I suggest otherwise? Did anyone? Frankly, you're free to tell me where to go if you wish, I couldn't care less, I don't report anything, but, and this is the obvious point that you are ignoring, clearly stated there, when people come here and say that Shoma's fest is just fans excited about their skater, while here is where the bad blood is coming from, then I will answer. Which is also why I didn't quote with names, it was never the point to single out specific people, it was simply to point out what was happening. Please do continue to freely post your thoughts and opinions, nobody said you or your fellow posters could not but others can read it and will form opinions accordingly, including those about who is creating tension between the fans in a thread where nobody can properly answer them due to forum rules.

 

[karne]

I told the fellow fans there, I was tired of the nitpicking and downtalking and just wanted to celebrate Shoma's achievement, without reading pages and pages on his mediocre transitions and twofooted skating. (And yeah, that's the reason for the Fanfest...to celebrate) Yes, there have been people who said that Shoma didn't deserve the Gold and that just made absolutely no sense to me.

Sorry, but while there's been some criticism and a bit of harping from one poster, I don't think anyone's been overly harsh on Shoma. At all.

Besides, as one poster pointed out, I think people have been a lot harder on Jason (unjustified) and Adam (completely justified) than they have on Shoma.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I also apologize for using the word nitpicking. I used that, because it felt that way, to me personally. I didn't want to start some war about it.

While I appreciate you coming here to clarify your statements, you're still leaving out a pretty big part of what got some people (okay, at least me) actually riled up - unfounded finger pointing at other skaters fans. The rest of that was IMO overly sensitive, but not any finger pointing at other posters, and not what would have 'started a war'.

 

[Marin]

I always believed that forum and such places exist to discuss/criticize/praise in constructive frame and everyone has the right to do so /again in polite manner ..I don't get why people are being oversensitive. All three Shoma, Adam and Jason have their best qualities and weaknesses. I am not a big fan of these 3 but I really DO think If Jason was scored 90 in pcs ,Shoma should have got no more than 88, simply because of the quality and amount of transitions and footwork. I don't think someone even questioned Uno's win here , they are questioning judges scores. In fact we can see the tendency that according to ISU most of the time more quads =more pcs, only Jin can't benefit from it apparently. Excuse me but figure skating journalists, many people who are having enough knowledge of sport are questioning Uno's take offs , prerotations and pretty bad looking free leg position, does it mean because people love him we should praise his good musicality and forget all his flaws ?! I don't think it is right. Comparing to what other top skaters are getting shoma's criticism is flowers and ruffles here. I mean Patrick Chan endlessly criticized for his axel , Hanyu and Yuna Kim now and then criticized for their posture and not pointing toes ), Fernandez was criticized for having same kind of routines for 6 years ( I pretty much participated in this one). Poor Max Aaron and satoko getting the bash no one faced before tbh...It doesn't mean we are being Afraid or we HATE him I wish all the best to him and honestly I wish he corrected his landings so I can enjoy his skating better. I got a bit confused here, Unfortunately I don't have enough time to dig all those nasty critiques others are getting. :scratch3:

 

[TheGrandSophy]

So what did people think of Dolensky? I really enjoyed his SP. FS, I think, needs more work.

 

[Tavi...]

Well, I get the impression from Brown´s freeskate that instead of interpreting the music he is doing stretching exercises = choreographed interpretation. His speed on the ice is slow and ice-coverage does not seem great either. BUT, he is consistent, because the slow speed may be less exhausting than skating with more speed in the freeskate?

First, having just watched this competition and many of the practices live, I want to say that Jason is not slow. In fact, he wasn't even one of the slowest skaters out there. One of the biggest things I've noticed between watching these skaters live and on the broadcast / in you tube clips etc is that broadcast /you tube tends to distort things like speed because it depends on the camera angle, how close up the shot is, and how fast the camera operator is moving the camera to follow the skater. The other thing I've noticed is that watching things on video tends to make skaters seem more alike than they really are. For example, many performances that read as low energy to me during the actual competition look less so when viewed on film. Again, I think it's because on film you are getting a lot of close ups, and you tend to focus more on facial expression than movement over the ice.

With respect to Jason, I believe what you call stretching exercises / choreographed interpretation in footwork are in fact balance challenging movements designed to increase levels, GOE and PCS, and in fact make the program much harder than simply skating fast by executing a lot of back crossovers. If you listen to the CBC clips I posted a few pages above, you will hear Kurt Browning and Carol Lane commenting on some of the moves he makes during his footwork and explaining how hard they are and how they show what a good skater Jason is. Similarly, in the SP when Jason goes immediately from a hydroblade to a Russian split jump, you will hear a gasp from them and other commentators because they know how much sheer core strength and balance it takes to do that. Whether you find his programs aesthetically pleasing or not, it's simply wrong to think that those movements are cheap choreography or designed to make the program easier.

 

[dorispulaski]

One thing that Kurt and Carol stressed about Jason's skating-he gets speed I.e. actually accelerates, out of moves and difficult turns that other skaters have to work to do at all. This is an attribute that is hard to see on TV, but which is immediately evident live. He is not slow at all. Kwan was another skater who had effortless speed and so was sometimes critiqued as being slow.

 

[LeReveur]

So what did people think of Dolensky? I really enjoyed his SP. FS, I think, needs more work.

That was my assessment, too.

 

[qwertyskates]

Wow, what's going on now?

Mea culpa, i'm the one who said I think Jason deserves the Gold medal here. I didn't know that it is an absolutely taboo thing to have a different opinion on the judging, because you know, people said here all the time that Patrick didn't deserve to win, and of course Patrick's fans argued and debated and it was a good time for all as we learned from each other the different views and perspectives of a skating performance.

That's the whole point isn't it, to have a Forum that discusses instead of ONLY Fan Fests, but I guess I'm mistaken.

The only time when I spoke out harshly against criticisms is when I thought they were too personal, eg. about Satoko's face or Patrick's eyes.

Otherwise, I am open to opinions but prefer of course factual backing and I find myself learning more as each side makes their case.

I don't see this as hating on one skater/country at all.

Come on.

I was pretty harsh on Jason in the past and I also hated his hydroblade and had some good-humoured sparring with Jason's ubers, but it was all in good fun. I was pretty harsh on Hanyu too, mostly because I prefer good control and extensions and very elaborate and defined movements such as Jason's skate.

Someone else might prefer fast, busy, sweeping movements, hydroblades and cantilevers, definitely, and that's equally valid.

I think I'm a LONE voice here, so is it so terrible to accommodate even ONE opinion? There are hundreds more that say the opposite from mine.

Jason DID change, I don't think it's because of GS but someone out there thought the same way and look, he's now moving audiences to tears. This has nothing to do with what we said here, but some other sharp-eyed member of Jason's entourage and it makes Jason stand out at SA.

Good, criticisms that are specific and backed up by facts are CONSTRUCTIVE, they actually spur the skater to do better and better, as he or she refines their performances to higher and higher standards.

As for Shoma, he did win, so his strategy did work. He might not want to change it, I can understand why, if it ain't broke, etc....or he might one day and sent a large segment of the audiences and rink staff to tears, I don't know.

It's something all of us wish to see for the skaters, whether it's Shoma, Jason, Hanyu, Patrick...it's a win for the sport, and for all FS fans.

For all we opine on this site, it doesn't change a thing for Shoma or Jason. It's up to them to take their skating trajectory according to their vision.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason might have won had the technical panel not call the quad UR in the free and he didn't lose the points on that spin -- of all things -- in the short. But he did, so I'm more than fine with Shoma's win.

Jason's quad attempts have been borderline all season, so I guess it's not surprising that one technical panel chose to be more strict. It's just a bummer it was on the one he actually landed on one foot. However, I think Jason cares more that he didn't fall or have to fight on it and it was borderline, so I think this will only motivate him to land it with out a shadow of a doubt on its rotation.

qwertyskates, I do feel that Rohene Ward did go through a phase of packing transition for Jason's skates because I think there was a belief that is what was helping him score so well. And maybe there's an argument that perhaps contributed to his back injury -- they've stated on the record they changed the SP mid-season (before he was unable to compete) because they fell the original SP from last season had too many twists and transitions.

These two programs this season seems to have far fewer transitions in comparison. Not easier, but just less stuff.

However, I guess my question is having defined movements/extensions mutually exclusive with upbeat music? My favorite Jason SP is actually from back in 2012. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xAG9G_m_IM&t=2s

The music is pretty upbeat -- electra-tango I'd say. But there isn't a ton of crazy moves and lots of moves that showed off the extension he had back then. I'd think you like it qwertyskates.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

That was my assessment, too.

What do you think he needs to do most? Other than the jump errors, I thought his movement didn't really have much purposeful intent. Some of the spins were nice though.

 

[LeReveur]

What do you think he needs to do most? Other than the jump errors, I thought his movement didn't really have much purposeful intent. Some of the spins were nice though.

Mmm, I may have originally given up on the LP after he butchered some of the planned jump content and failed to convince me he was really on with the music, but just for you I am rewatching it.

Poor use of head movements. Sort of falling out of the program after early mistakes. An unfinished hydroblade move of about one second that lacked any intensity (while the music has some strength to it). His movement is far too gentle and weak for the music. Have you noticed that I really look for how skaters interpret music?! I see zero choreography that suits the music. Jumps that are not even close to an elite level.

Okay, the spread eagle is more intense, but still not intense enough. Combination spin far too slow for the music. Oh, great. Now the music is slower and he's spinning faster, because that makes sense...

No. Didn't like almost anything in there! But the SP was fine.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Mmm, I may have originally given up on the LP after he butchered some of the planned jump content and failed to convince me he was really on with the music, but just for you I am rewatching it.

Poor use of head movements. Sort of falling out of the program after early mistakes. An unfinished hydroblade move of about one second that lacked any intensity (while the music has some strength to it). His movement is far too gentle and weak for the music. Have you noticed that I really look for how skaters interpret music?! I see zero choreography that suits the music. Jumps that are not even close to an elite level.

Okay, the spread eagle is more intense, but still not intense enough. Combination spin far too slow for the music. Oh, great. Now the music is slower and he's spinning faster, because that makes sense...

No. Didn't like almost anything in there! But the SP was fine.

Thanks for taking the time! Yeah, I thought the movement didn't fit the music at all and, yes, weak was the word that came to mind. I don't think he has connection with this music whereas he did with the SP, I think. Maybe not a good choice.

 

[qwertyskates]

Jason might have won had the technical panel not call the quad UR in the free and he didn't lose the points on that spin -- of all things -- in the short. But he did, so I'm more than fine with Shoma's win.


These two programs this season seems to have far fewer transitions in comparison. Not easier, but just less stuff.

However, I guess my question is having defined movements/extensions mutually exclusive with upbeat music? My favorite Jason SP is actually from back in 2012. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xAG9G_m_IM&t=2s

The music is pretty upbeat -- electra-tango I'd say. But there isn't a ton of crazy moves and lots of moves that showed off the extension he had back then. I'd think you like it qwertyskates.

Oh yes, I love this one! How could I have missed it? It's a lot more matured than his Juke season and this was 5 years ago. Nothing in this says "Junior". Fast music is great, I love all genres, as long as the skater makes it special, and this *is*.

Jason packed a lot here - look at all that lightning speed one-foot sequences, that's DIFFICULT to do. He's the only one who got level 4 stsq at SA I believe. This doesn't help his TES much but it means a lot to me. I think he deserves a lot more +GOE, higher SS, Performance, etc. although I find it a bit unfair to the current top tier - Hanyu, Patrick, Javier took a lot longer to earn their current PCS which are close to maximum.

The two-feet moves like hydroblades and eagles to me are not so challenging for elite skaters but I understand their appeal. I wish the audience will also applaud Jason's one-foot glides leg lifts with position changes as much as his hydroblade, they're harder and extraordinary because I don't think many male skaters can do them.

If I were Rohene, for this piece I'd compress some moves and slow down some a little more to let Jason's beautiful line pop, to up the intensity to unbearable pressure and then slow a little to "wow" with his positions, so the different pace shows the different strengths of Jason.

The costume is great too, but I think a sprinkling of crystals would work better than a lot of sequins. His posture, extension, line, grace are his forte so his costume mustn't detract too much from them. The all black helps, definitely, makes the details all clearly visible. At SA, the first spin combo he did was exquisite because even his fingers formed a shape and the all-black costume lets us notice it.

I definitely think another fast-beat piece will be great for SP next season to demonstrate his ability to handle different genres, and there's a lot to pick from this tango to build another matserpiece.:agree:

The only thing that still worries me is his quad - hope he doesn't injure himself and that he lands them with greater consistency. Good luck Jason, you bowled us over this time, you're in a different league now!

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh yes, I love this one! How could I have missed it? It's a lot more matured than his Juke season and this was 5 years ago. Nothing in this says "Junior". Fast music is great, I love all genres, as long as the skater makes it special, and this *is*.

Jason packed a lot here - look at all that lightning speed one-foot sequences, that's DIFFICULT to do. He's the only one who got level 4 stsq at SA I believe. This doesn't help his TES much but it means a lot to me. I think he deserves a lot more +GOE, higher SS, Performance, etc. although I find it a bit unfair to the current top tier - Hanyu, Patrick, Javier took a lot longer to earn their current PCS which are close to maximum.

Cool. I loved the excuse to go back and watch it again! As I said it's my favorite. His SP this season might displace it, by Worlds -- Love choreography, dislike the music (personal preference thing and all).

If I were Rohene, for this piece I'd compress some moves and slow down some a little more to let Jason's beautiful line pop, to up the intensity to unbearable pressure and then slow a little to "wow" with his positions, so the different pace shows the different strengths of Jason.

A few folks have talked about this concept in some of SD threads. Namely holding the move and then releasing it. And I agree, it would be great -- I think it would help some of the moves look less like flexibility exercises.

 

[el henry]

.....
If I were Rohene, for this piece I'd compress some moves and slow down some a little more to let Jason's beautiful line pop, to up the intensity to unbearable pressure and then slow a little to "wow" with his positions, so the different pace shows the different strengths of Jason.

The costume is great too, but I think a sprinkling of crystals would work better than a lot of sequins. His posture, extension, line, grace are his forte so his costume mustn't detract too much from them. The all black helps, definitely, makes the details all clearly visible.
....

Agreed, and I do love me some Rohene choreo, but I am afraid that "sprinkling of crystals" is not in Rohene's vocabulary.

And we do not, do not, do NOT, want the Rohene Bedazzler

 

[ks777]

Either you don't understand what "transitions" means or you don't know how to count :noshake: Transitions are not only those easily visible tricks, like rising a leg as high as possible, or ina bauers, which are very nice of course, but what the feet do between elements. Judges know exactly what to look at and how difficult these steps are. Here are some of Shoma's in the second half of his program, starting with spread eagles into 3A:
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=177
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=195
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=203
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=215
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=227
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=246
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=250
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=258
https://youtu.be/NpiIA3ROApM?t=284

everything so perfectly done with the music :luv17:

and to this:

maybe the judges here were delusional, (or Shoma ubers) but 91.08 PCS this early in the season looks like world class to me :yay:

Anyway, such an amazing competition and such ugly treat...
The medalists gave as beautiful performances, so different in styles, but excellent athletically and gorgeous artistically, there is something for everyone!
And the rest was so great, too. I think everyone of them in the free skate achieved his own little victory, well done boys!

I don't know what performance I love the most, I'll be rewatching them everyday (until SC )
- Shoma in the morning - for energy and a big smile for the day
- Adam in the middle - so not to forget to be human
- Jason in the evening - for nice dreams... :agree2:

Yep some people don't know what "trasitions" mean. and it's not how much you skate with one foot or how many time you put turns or lift legs up while skating. Besides, judges are judging based on how well you transition from an element to elment and not on how many time you skate with one foot or how many times you turn..

 

[Tavi...]

Yep some people don't know what "trasitions" mean. and it's not how much you skate with one foot or how many time you put turns or lift legs up while skating. Besides, judges are judging based on how well you transition from an element to elment and not on how many time you skate with one foot or how many times you turn..

I haven't heard anyone describe transitions in terms of skating on one foot, lifting the leg or doing turns. Those things are relevant to skating skills and gaining GOE on footwork.

 

[Dee4707]

Love Jason's LP and he seems more mature. Love it all!!