2017 GP Cup of China Ladies FS

[Baron Vladimir]

The new-age crap we see these days with "more transitions" is NOT a better form of skating..

So some of you guys have videos to enjoy in better old forms of skating. Just let some of us to enjoy in new-age crap one

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

And Wakababy's Jumpamatron of the first 3z-3t in her FS.

https://youtu.be/BgfxvZTu9Lo

This one is weird. IMO.....it looks UR in real time but as you slow it down and take a second look it looks fine.

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RE: Zagitova's 3z

I'm surprised it got called UR. Really.....that looked good.

 

[lavoix]

It is - if consistent judging standard means anything to you and why judges are always encouraged to mark within a narrow corridor to prevent inflation.

You can't all of a sudden change the judging standard just for one skater, over one event. If she is marked 68, then Marin should be marked 68+ too, and Wakaba should be in her 70s etc.. ...and seriously, you want to compare her ballet qualities with Mao? Lol...How is this program anywhere close to Mao's FS at Sochi in presentation, skating skills, musicality, lyricism, eloquence, poise, sophistication, maturity, with 8 triples including a frigging 3A? Mao at least performs to the music, whereas Zigitova skates around aimlessly for half of the program attempting to fill empty spots, waiting for half way points before the marathon jump drill with minimum emotional investment, other than perhaps jubilation, oooo look i can jump one after another and display happiness (so much interpretation!!!). Artistically they are not on par. Whereas Zagitova requires a music built around her content that clearly compromised the artistic integrity completely.

A great program should be about skater able to deliver the vision of the music and choreographic content, not the other way around, to have music shaped to deliver the technical content with minimum effort on skater's part. Transitions are only one small part of the overall PCS and are highly overrated, 'figure' skating is so much more than just transitions. Memorable positions, choreographic moments, highs, lows, unique and varied impressions and emotions. Transcendence. Skating skill arguably should be the most important, and clearly, all Japanese ladies displayed much better basics than Zagitova, especially Wakaba who displayed much better coverage, much faster and had seamless flow including better landing positions.

That's lovely, but you can't compare judging between competitions. Zagitova is not on par with Mao, however Zagitova is skating well to music and choreography that is appropriate for her age. You cannot compare 2014 Mao to current Zagitova.

 

[Leonardo]

Gotta love cbc comments:
"If you need to go to the bathroom or get a popcorn, go ahead because in the first 2 minutes of this program nothing is happening as far as jumping" LMAO
"If I'd be sitting there juding this, sorry, but I would think I understand what you're doing, you're using the system to your advantage, but at the same time this is not a well balanced program, so therefore some marks must come down in that component/composition score"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1xX8YlMqFw

 

[MsLiinaLii]

Sorry my ignorance but would they ever call out Osmond's flutz? No. In fact, it was disgusting listening to such bitter commentary.
And the only reason really they are trashing Russian ladies ATM, is because they are threats to their lady...

 

[Leonardo]

Sorry my ignorance but would they ever call out Osmond's flutz? No.
And the only reason really they are trashing Russian ladies ATM, is because they are threats to their lady...

Osmond has nothing to do with cup of China, and certainly has nothing to do with this comment. And they were not trashing or hating russian ladies, they just pointed something obvious, that the distribution and balance of the program is simply not great.

 

[MsLiinaLii]

Osmond has nothing to do with cup of China, and certainly has nothing to do with this comment. And they were not trashing or hating russian ladies, they just pointed something obvious, that the distribution and balance of the program is simply not great.

I stand by my opinion. There are different ways how you can say same things but in a less bitter way.
Well, quite a number of commentators under CBC video agree with me

 

[Ender]

Sorry my ignorance but would they ever call out Osmond's flutz? No. In fact, it was disgusting listening to such bitter commentary.
And the only reason really they are trashing Russian ladies ATM, is because they are threats to their lady...

Osmond isn’t as disliked because she doesn’t win as much.

 

[MsLiinaLii]

And why did I bring Osmond here? Because now they see Alina as a threat to her . Compare their comments about her just last season at JW
https://youtu.be/Wi_mKcMomZI
And now... quite a drastic change in opinion really

 

[DarR]

That's just your point of view. For me Alina was better. The best Wakaba's performance was in Lombardia - it was skated with the soul then. Today it was still very good but it was more mechanical, I would say. There is an open discussion on whether Wakaba's pcs should be higher than Alina's whose ability to build up the energy with the crescendo at the final 30 seconds is nothing but exquisite. I don't think any program had anything like that in the history of figure skating. And this should be rewarded. So far here it boils down to: "we believe that Wakaba is better James Bond than Alina balerina" and Wakaba was faster - of course, she was because she had fewer transitions.

What no one seems to mention is that Wakaba was judged quite leniently in TES. Her combined GOE is the same as Alina's which I think is not right. One could argue whose jumps are better - Alina's flip is a masterpiece. But it is beyond any arguments that Alina is a better spinner by far and large - again their GOE is identical. And one more thing - I haven't had time to rewatch. But Alina did not have URs on a single Lz - she was given a carrot today. Wakaba consistently URed 3T in the combo. No carrot yesterday (and it was URed) - no today (I can't say - it may be OK - need to rewatch). But Wakaba just yesterday got ! on flip which she usually gets. What changed since yesterday - she improved her technique? No ! call.

All in all, a well deserved win by Zagitova. Whoever can match what she shows over and over again, welcome.

Alina, was in my opinion, very borderline on all of her jumps - 3Lz, 3F, 3Lo, 3S, and even both jumps in her 2A-3T in this event. I don't recall her being that borderline in the past though. If she were scored as in Skate Canada last week, sad to say, probably all of her triple jumps, except her first 3F, would have been called under-rotated.

 

[xeyra]

I'm going to have to mention this thing I found really funny. Tracy Wilson was doing commentary for the Olympic Channel on Gabby's SP and on the slow motion at the end she referred to Gabby doing a triple flip... Gabby supposedly does a 3Lz in her SP. Tracy just unmasked Gabby's flutz!

Edit: Please don't take this too seriously, it's just something I found amusing.

 

[[email protected]]

And Wakababy's Jumpamatron of the first 3z-3t in her FS.

https://youtu.be/BgfxvZTu9Lo

This one is weird. IMO.....it looks UR in real time but as you slow it down and take a second look it looks fine.

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RE: Zagitova's 3z

I'm surprised it got called UR. Really.....that looked good.

That's exactly what I was talking about: Wakaba's 3T landing is no better than Alina's 3Lz landing. The panel should have either given them both a pass or called them both. Otherwise Zagitova "wuzrobbed" by 2 points.

 

[whatif]

And why did I bring Osmond here? Because now they see Alina as a threat to her . Compare their comments about her just last season at JW
https://youtu.be/Wi_mKcMomZI
And now... quite a drastic change in opinion really

Not only that but I think people also need to make their mind. Alina has 3 Lv4 lengthy elements before her 2nd half begins, including the spins that very few can do among the current crop. Last time I checked people were talking about the importance of non-jumping elements but now we are suddenly talking about taking bathroom breaks because she does not jump?

 

[Mathman]

I threw together a quick Jumpamatron of Alina's 3z in the FS.

https://youtu.be/jNkCmKJAjww

It's fine. :yes:

But no, it's not fine. It is cheated by close to 90 degrees. To me, here is the bottom line: Don't under-rotate your jumps (easier said than done, I know). If you get full rotations, you have seized control of your own destiny. If you do not get full rotations, you put your fate in the hands of the technical panel. Sometimes the call will go your way, sometimes not.

Should technical panels strive for consistency? Of course they should. But an athlete should never count on being bailed out by the officials.

It is an unsatisfying sporting event if the outcome is decided, not on the field of play, but by a controversial call on the part of the officials. It seems like figure skating produces more than it fair share of "unsatisfying sporting events" by this criterion.

 

[Globetrotter]

Not about this specific case, but overall.

Well, I see how a more difficult program could be rewarded indirectly in PCs.
For example, imagine this: there is a skater who does an FS with 7 triples and all, and another one that does an FS without a single jump. Suppose also those skater have identical skills and all. Obviously, for the second skater, its easier to hit all the PCs checkpoints, right?
Basically, with a harder program, it is harder to do all the interpretation, performance and artistry. I´m pretty sure judges acknowledge this, and i believe that it if fair to take this aspect in account when awarding PCs.

No, that was not the situation we are seeing here and what I was describing. Alina rightly deserves higher TES for the difficulty. She also deserves the high TR and GOEs for what she did. Yet the programme as a whole was not sophisticated albeit very difficult. The jump segment was obviously busy and rushed. You may find it appealing. I don't. It's not what I think of as a balanced or well choreo routine. As such PCS should be lowered really. She deserves high marks but not for the reasons you are describing as no where in the ISU rules is this mentioned.

A more difficult TES performed well deserves higher PCS. If it's all doubles and solo triples it is much easier to perform, so rightfully increase in difficulty combined with confidence, conviction and delivery should be awarded higher PCS. Athletes should be rewarded for better athleticism, stamina, skills, and energy - not withering, slowing or showing pain or strain should be part of PCS, it's about the overall quality of the entire performance too.

Wakada is strong and athletic but I notice a lot of crossovers and frankly not many difficult transitions. She is very expressive though, and has a presence that reminds me of Midori Ito. The other Japanese skater I like a lot is Mai, and not so much Marin, who comes across as bland to me.

Mai did two rather difficult programs and stuck to them with conviction and energy to the end. I never saw her perform better, and while I love Radionova, I think Mai deserves bronze here.

Just look at Men's....I doubt some of the men today can perform Zagitova's program without tiring.:sarcasm:

Again, difficulty technically should not be automatically taken to mean superb PCS. Otherwise, the Vincent Zhou and Jin Boyang in men should get bumped up a lot more! I agree that Wakaba has less TR but she does hers with meaning and high quality instead of the Alina and Zhenya quantity. Alina's basic glide is also no match for Wakaba. So by all means Alina should get better TR but lower SS, the converse for Wakaba. As both skated with fire, they deserve equally great PE but Wakaba's interpretation is more sophisticated and I felt she really deserved better overall IN and CO than Alina. Perhaps it's still not enough to win over the high tech scores but certainly the scoring in PCS should be fairer. I really can't tell what more Wakaba can do to boost her PE, IN and CO.

 

[qwertyskates]

Her jumps are not "visibly telegraphed" any more than a standard amount, this is NORMAL jumping, how it is supposed to be done. Not doing small, pre-rotated jumps with barely any speed out and putting a random "transition" leading up to it as an excuse for doing easier and lower quality jumps.

Nor does her program have too many crossovers. The only part of her program that has less transitions is during the lead-up into her excellent 3Lutz+3Toe combos. Show me ANY lady in the world who can do a REAL jump combo like this (correct edge, no pre-rotation, no jerky body positions to force the rotation, good amplitutde) without needing a requisite amount of lead-in time.

This is simply what skating is supposed to be. The new-age crap we see these days with "more transitions" is NOT a better form of skating. Many of those transitional movements don't create less telegraphed jumping passes to begin with, you can see the skaters visibly preparing for a jump while doing the transitions. They are not focusing on the performance or the movement itself or their body positions; you can see them thinking about the upcoming jump the whole way through. The transitions just become part of "telegraphing" the jump. It's not less difficult to hold your body with GOOD posture and maintain an elegant outward projection the whole time, ala Michelle Kwan, while going into a jump. A transition is only special if it does not take away from this overall sense of performance and creating a pleasing vision on the ice; a good transition should enhance the overall picture or else it just becomes mechanical.



No. It. Isn't. This is the form of a ballet dancer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21n1xorjEs

Where are the pointed toes in Zagitova's skating? Where are the extended, soft arms held and moved in such a way as to create clear shapes? Where is the leg held perfectly at a right angle with the free foot either turned out or held directly in front of the body? Where is the perfectly upright posture? These kinds of positions in skating were best displayed by Sasha Cohen; Zagitova is NOT on the same level. People are just "amazed" by Zagitova because of how she is relatively more balletic in comparison to others we have seen recently. Just because she is relatively better in recent history, in this one type of form, it doesn't mean she is at all equal to the form of great ballet dancers or the best form we have seen from skaters in the past.

LOL @ "who exactly has jumps that don't lack flow out". Plenty of people have jumps with flow out, that's how jumps should be! I don't even think every jump needs to be exactly like this either, but certainly you should show the ability to do it on several jumps.



Every movement is not timed exactly to the music, there are steps and spin positions and jumps in the program that are clearly there to fulfill technical rules, not as an interpretation of the music. What does her 3Lutz+3Loop have to do with the music at that point in time, for example? It's a great technical skill but hardly some kind of brilliant interpretation of the music. Moreover, simply doing something in time with the music does not inherently make choreography brilliant, especially when you do it so REPETITIVELY. When you skate to Don Quixote and put nearly every jump on an upbeat with the free arm flung outward on the landing, it stops being something special. It just becomes more of the same. A program should have a greater sense of purpose and form and depth. There's a phrase called "on the nose" and this describes too much of the choreography of Zagitova's program. It's quite literal and expected.

This post is not specifically addressed to you but in general.

In sports, we are always trying to award the highest accolade to the best athlete, in terms of different criteria according the the sport, eg. speed for the sprint, difficulty and GOE for gymnasts, etc.

To increase transparency, the ISU has made public a list of criteria for their judgment which apply to every competition and athletes tailor their performances accordingly.

You are not supposed to shift the goalposts, they remain fixed.

It doesn't matter if you prefer jumps front-loaded, evenly loaded or backloaded - backloaded elements are rewarded as one of the criteria because it tests for athlete's strength and stamina and rewards those who are stronger than their competitors.

Same with transitions and single-footed skating vs crossovers and double-footed skating. They are deemed more difficult to execute and are meant to single out the better skater.

It is not about your own preferences for crossovers vs "weak steps" (your own words when it applies to Zagi's many transitions yet you applauded Higuchi's crossovers+small turns leading to most of her jumps) but adhering to judging criteria to remove subjectivity and possibility of bias and goalpost shifting.

Judging is only egregious when all the boxes of these publicly known criteria are ticked(or not) and yet the results differ drastically.

So let's agree that Zagi's program (performance, execution, choreography, etc.) is simply not to yours or her detractors' taste, and nothing to do with the judging criteria.

You don't like backloaded programs and lost of transitions, but sorry, the judging criteria reward them and Zagi wins fair and square.

As for ballet, why would you post a pas de deux from un unrelated ballet when it's not pairs skating but a ladies single? All the elements are completely different and differently executed between a solo and a pas de deux.

About your comments about "repetitiveness" etc., if anyone has watched ballet, they would know that ballet is REPETITIVE. The performers often repeat the exact same set of movements/enchainements several times across the stage or on the spot. Fouettes can go as high as 30+ repeated rotations. It is a criteria for judging the skills of a dancer - that a difficult set can be repeatedly performed to the exact same high standards, at the exact angle, elevation, etc..

However, Zagi's program is not at all repetitive, her positions and movements are always changing, and most of those are figure skating positions, movements and steps, eg. ina bauers, with a couple of arabesques and jumps that resemble cabrioles, Rippons and tanos are actually ballet arm positions in the 4th and 5th.

I got a good laugh though, when you insisted that she didn't point her toes in her....skating boots! Skating boots are not ballet slippers.

In the end, in the video that was posted, it is also very telling when Zagi performed the same program in Juniors World and received nothing but praise for a more flawed performance.

 

[Globetrotter]

Not only that but I think people also need to make their mind. Alina has 3 Lv4 lengthy elements before her 2nd half begins, including the spins that very few can do among the current crop. Last time I checked people were talking about the importance of non-jumping elements but no we are suddenly talking about taking bathroom breaks because she does not jump?

I think you don't understand. Nobody is doubting the importance of non jumps. It's the PCS and programme composition. You can have many difficult elements and they may be done well individually. But when their order and placement is all packed and looked hurried and imbalanced, the programme as a whole loses its appeal. The good elements being done well in the beginning does not negate that some audience find Alina's programme unbalanced and the purpose unclear except to max out points. It should be rewarded technically but artistically, it should not score as well as say something delivered with more polish and purpose and balance by say Wakaba or Mai.

 

[whatif]

I think you don't understand. Nobody is doubting the importance of non jumps. It's the PCS and programme composition. You can have many difficult elements and they may be done well individually. But when their order and placement is all packed and looked hurried and imbalanced, the programme as a whole loses its appeal. The good elements being done well in the beginning does not negate that some audience find Alina's programme unbalanced and the purpose unclear except to max out points. It should be rewarded technically but artistically, it should not score as well as say something delivered with more polish and purpose and balance by say Wakaba or Mai.

I understand but I was responding to the specific comments made by cbc commentators about taking bathroom breaks during the first half of Alina's skate.

 

[whatif]

This post is not specifically addressed to you but in general.

You should know better by now to not take serious BoP's long and patronising essays about how he is the main authority about what FS rules should be, what proper technique is, what the right choreography is, and how ISU should judge.

 

[Grin]

You should know better by now to not take serious BoP's long and patronising essays about how he is the main authority about what FS rules should be, what proper technique is, what the right choreography is, and how ISU should judge.

Oh, I remember he was critisizing Evgenia's programms and afer somebody asked him to give an example of good LP, BoP mentioned last year Karen Chen's home made LP (tango) as an example of good choreo. Since that time I don't take him seriously.