2017 GP Cup of China Ladies FS

[Leonardo]

It's funny when people mention Zagitova as a ballerina, her back, her musicality, her lines are SO FAR from what a proper ballet training could provide. Seriously, having a ballet inspired program and wearing a tutu does not make you a ballerina. But anyway, I'm done with criticism for Zagitova, it's just a matter of overscoring, she's great, talented, a technicall wonder and actually deserved better programs (not her junior one), but I guess any backloaded construction would get her the same points anyway. Reputation is always the most important factor. Or politics, as we saw in the 2014 olympics.

Imho, that's why Medvedeva will win the olympics if she hits. Reputation and better choreo/interpretation with a little more variety and depth.

 

[Eclair]

Yes, but as a commentator you should see the pluses and the minuses in every skater and to argument your opinion... not just to say... wow, I like Mai, wow, I like Wakaba, if she's not getting more than 70 PCS is a scandal...

they reasoned their opinions very well. One argument was that Zagitova's PCS should be lower because it was not a balanced program. I've already said this multiple times, but you have your own definition of what a balanced program is, while it always had that meaning. It was used when skaters put all their jumps in the first half. Just it is now used, when skaters put all the jumps in the second half.

 

[AshWagsFan]

I was very impressed with Radionova's improvements in just two weeks. Although she probably won't be in the final, I'm interested in seeing if she can continue this upward trajectory into Russian Nats and maybe (maybe) make the Olympic team.

 

[OS]

It's up to ISU to decide when they are annoyed with it.

What i know is that more americans and Japanese skaters are starting to approach backloaded programs even for the FS, but the reality is that is incredibly difficult, so only Eteri's skaters have mastered it at the moment.

Me personally i'm okay with it: it's objectively a challenge doing all 7 triples fully rotated and clean in 2 minutes, i think it's up to the skater to be able to sell the program with that crazy layout.

What i find so silly about this argument is why not just make FS 2 minutes instead of 4 then, if 7 triples in 2 minutes is what the sport has come down to.

Also what about the fact skater legs generally get tired if they jump in the first half and still have to deliver the rest in the 2nd half all other elements, which Zigitova doesn't have to do because by then she can take rest already and recuperate off ice instead working 2nd half still to perform?

 

[MaiKatze]

I was very impressed with Radionova's improvements in just two weeks. Although she probably won't be in the final, I'm interested in seeing if she can continue this upward trajectory into Russian Nats and maybe (maybe) make the Olympic team.

Everyone goes on about the heartbreak of the japanese ladies. For me personally, the heartbreak is with the russian ladies. Tuktamysheva, Radionova, Pogorilaya....they were all so important in the after Sochi quad, all three of them not able to go to the Sochi Games for different reasons. Sotnikova & Lipnitskaia are out of the game, got their spotlight in 2014. And now, their time is also over. I would be surprised to see any of them at the games. Imho, it'll be between Sotnikova and Tsurskaya.

 

[jenm]

I'm pretty flabbergasted that someone would say all Marin has going for her is her pretty smile. Please carefully watch this. Thank you.
Her SS is among the best in the current field IMO. Smooth and deep edges, difficult turns executed very well, seamless movements, actually holding positions, great posture all throughout. Watching her and Alina skate back-to-back in the short program shows a stark contrast in posture alone. IMO, skating seamlessly with poise like that is very difficult and shows great control not only of edges but of her entire body.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

I think it is fair game to criticize the rules. If we see a rule that we think is bad for the sport, why shouldn't we offer that opinion?

I agree. Some people are actually doing it and I respect that.

But some others are judging the the skaters, coaches, judges, basically everyone based on their own non-existent version of ISU rules.

I have my own problems with the rules and the biggest one is that they do not provide objectivity, hence all of these discussions going on forever.

My position is that: Skaters just try to skate their best according to the rules and win. Their coaches help them do so. Neither of them are guilty if the rules are wrong.

I wouldn't have minded if the rulebook said balance means having an even number of jumps on both halves of the program. But it doesn't, so why poor Alina gets all the criticm for not deserving her spot etc.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

I'm pretty flabbergasted that someone would say all Marin has going for her is her pretty smile. Please carefully watch this. Thank you.
Her SS is among the best in the current field IMO. Smooth and deep edges, difficult turns executed very well, seamless movements, actually holding positions, great posture all throughout. Watching her and Alina skate back-to-back in the short program shows a stark contrast in posture alone. IMO, skating seamlessly with poise like that is very difficult and shows great control not only of edges but of her entire body.

I mentioned the smile (definitely not in the way you carelessly paraphrased it though), it was a satirical point. You might call it a joke if you want but it was meant to convey more than a joke. I have even made an explanation to some other poster because they also misunderstood and I felt responsible.

I really don't appreciate people who take another poster's points out of its context.

 

[qwertyskates]

I for one will be disappointed if I don't see another program quite like Zagitova's.

I'm surprised that no one else enjoyed the beautiful footwork, spins, step sequences that were truly special leading up to a thrilling crescendo of jumps - almost like the finale of a fireworks display or the climax ending of a grand symphony.

The experience for me was intense and exhilarating, and I felt carried away by the elegant leaps of this bright, sprightly young lady.

I've never seen a skate like this and likely won't after the Olympics. I didn't for any moment of the program feel uncomfortable or bored in anyway. Program layouts are usually quite predictable - 2A and 2 spins at the end, ina bauers, cantilevers and spread eagles at a certain type musical sequence that has the audience clapping, etc.

While Med backloaded, her music and choreography simply didn't build up to a finale like this.

I just love seeing something different for a change, and the sport pushed to a different type of extreme that works.

I understand it is difficult to make such a layout work and it could backfire and fall very flat.

It is also so risky, I don't think many other skaters can do this.

But I'm just glad it will always remain as a keynote program in an Olympic year.

 

[chuckm]

How many people on here have actually seen Don Quitoxe? Because the style is hugely different to many of the classical ballets, much more like La Corsaire. It's sharp, it's energetic, it's flamboyant. It's not a floaty ballet.

Go watch some of the Kitri variations and DQ that crop up at YAGP, Prix de Lausanne, and some of the other youth comps, dancers around Zagitova's age, and there isn't too much difference in style (allowing for the fact that most people seem to have forgotten which is that Zagitova is a figure skate, not a student who's spent 10 years at the Vaganova)

And good god, she's fit enough to do all her jumps in the end of the programme without compromising on the energy of the choreography in the first half! She won't be able to do it forever, her skating needs to mature a little, so instead of Kostner's unreal footwork quality, this is her chance to go 'hey, look what I can do!' This whole sport is about showing off your best and being unique and at a senior level, this is her stand out quality, and IMPO, I think it's been carefully choreographed with the change of music paces and she so many of her jumps with barely 5 seconds prep! That's bloody impressive

I have been a regular ballet goer, and I've seen Don Quixote done many times. Kitri doesn't bend from the waist throughout the ballet or struggle to pull herself through the jetes and spins the way Alina does. And at times, it is a visible struggle for Alina, hence the UR.

When you come to think of it, this is her SEVENTH performance of this program (two JGPs, one JGPF, one SR National, one JW, one Lombardia) and it isn't a better performance than any of the others, in fact it may be one of her worse ones. All the other ladies were doing NEW programs, many for the first or second time in competition.

OTOH, Wakaba Higuchi showed no sign of struggle. She just went out there and did her thing with energy and flamboyance and no URs or mistakes. In my book, Wakaba was the winner, not Alina.

 

[Ender]

I saw Higuchi live, even though not her best form but she already showed sign of powerful and confident in all her moves, it’s natural, the programs suit her very well. I think they score her too low.

 

[crazydreamer]

I think Alina is the one that improved both technically and artistically and having a program that she knows really well helped her along the way. Marin is the one lagging behind even though she is still really good in her own way. I came to an understanding that some people just don't like ballet because this program is not childish at all, its just ballet-like. It's okay if you prefer Marin's performences and enjoy them more but objective criteria doesn't work like that.

The thing is though, apart from the music and the tutu, there is not much balletic quality to Alina's skating IMO. My biggest problem with Alina is that her team is so focused on the technical elements and the points that it just becomes like thrashing back and forth at times. I said after the short program it's like skating is following the trend of gymnastics, which used to be a lot more about grace and now is almost 100% about the number of flips and twists one can do, with a few awkward arm movements thrown in between. It's obviously working for Alina, and more power to her and her team, but it's really depressing for people like me who got into figure skating for the performance and the artistic side of it. Since there are no ballet or dance competitions, figure skating is (was) the closest thing to an artistic olympic event. Not so anymore.

 

[Ender]

Both Zagitova and Honda haven’t shown significant improvement compared to their previous self, it’s understandable they’re so young. We don’t know how they will develop.
I can’t stand Zagitova’s SP though, she looked really rushed and tense in it.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

The thing is though, apart from the music and the tutu, there is not much balletic quality to Alina's skating IMO. My biggest problem with Alina is that her team is so focused on the technical elements and the points that it just becomes like thrashing back and forth at times. I said after the short program it's like skating is following the trend of gymnastics, which used to be a lot more about grace and now is almost 100% about the number of flips and twists one can do, with a few awkward arm movements thrown in between. It's obviously working for Alina, and more power to her and her team, but it's really depressing for people like me who got into figure skating for the performance and the artistic side of it. Since there are no ballet or dance competitions, figure skating is (was) the closest thing to an artistic olympic event. Not so anymore.

Your points make sense to me even though I am the exact opposite. I care about the techinal improvements the most and I am aware by this point that not everyone shares my enthusiasm

 

[qwertyskates]

I have been a regular ballet goer, and I've seen Don Quixote done many times. Kitri doesn't bend from the waist throughout the ballet or struggle to pull herself through the jetes and spins the way Alina does. And at times, it is a visible struggle for Alina, hence the UR.

I hear this over and over again...:sarcasm:
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/11993971824_b3a775eb8d_z.jpg

 

[Baron Vladimir]

My conclusion is that we assist to a manipulation!
I don't know who launched for the first time this rhetoric about the balanced program but it's clear that some commentators and some people - who have different interests- took it over and use it to pressure the judges.

Yeah, im absolutely amazed how so much people come to that conclusion of what balanced programme is, when what a lot of people think its not something you can find in the Rules. ISU left choreographers to compose the programme the way they wanted to because judges job is not to judge concept of the choreographer but how skater skate that concept on the ice, with the music, and for the audience... And that is obviosly visible in judges marks for CO. They have nothing in common with those concepts people think should be judged. Someone must wrongly stated her/his definition how programmes should be composed and people took that opinion just because its in conjuction with every day meaning of word balance and choreography (or just because it gain them oportunity to criticize something).

 

[Mathman]

This question of what the ISU means by a well-balanced program is still bugging me. It can't simply mean to do one jump at the north end of the rink and then the next jump at the south.

I did find this sentence under the Choreography/Composition criteria:

Proportion (equal weight of all parts):

Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

I guess "balanced" ought to mean, "not lopsided" in terms the substance and gravitas of the program. If you do all the jumps at the beginning (or end), then you are expected to balance that by putting elements of equal weight in the other half.

However, it did not take much investigation to learn (just Google it) that in ISU-talk, the "well-balanced program" has, since the 1990s at least, referred to the list of requirements that a skater must present in order to show complete mastery of the "skating vocabulary" (I love that phrase ), as opposed to relying on the same skill over and over. (For example, the Zayak rules are an attempt to "balance" the jump requirements.)

Here is the most interesting document that pooped up. It is interesting because it goes quite a bit into the history of the term. The document is old, but it conveys the idea pretty well.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/wellsngl.htm

 

[Ender]

Simple... a program is well balanced well the strong federation fell so as their skaters are winning with it.

 

[qwertyskates]

This question of what the ISU means by a well-balanced program is still bugging me. It can't simply mean to do one jump at the north end of the rink and then the next jump at the south.

I did find this sentence under the Choreography/Composition criteria:



I guess "balanced" ought to mean, "not lopsided" in terms the substance and gravitas of the program. If you do all the jumps at the beginning (or end), then you are expected to balance that by putting elements of equal weight in the other half.

However, it did not take much investigation to learn (just Google it) that in ISU-talk, the "well-balanced program" has, since the 1990s at least, referred to the list of requirements that a skater must present in order to show complete mastery of the "skating vocabulary" (I love that phrase ), as opposed to relying on the same skill over and over. (For example, the Zayak rules are an attempt to "balance" the jump requirements.)

Here is the most interesting document that pooped up. It is interesting because it goes quite a bit into the history of the term. The document is old, but it conveys the idea pretty well.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/wellsngl.htm

THANK YOU:agree:

The document is really telling what the judges look for in awarding or penalizing programs construction.

It's neither spatial nor temporal, but more about demonstrating a balance of competence in all the elements, as exemplified by the Zayak rule. So variety and range in skating vocabulary is what constitutes "balance", and NOT about symmetry.

To me Zagitova demonstrates a fuller range of competence and repertoire than her competitors - more variety of Jumps, Spins, Steps, etc.

I'm glad that it is flexible enough to allow for any type of program construction as long as this balance of skating vocabulary and competence is showcased.

In this sense Don Quixote is brilliant in

(1) creating even greater variety of steps, positions and movements by adding ballet vocabulary/repertoire to the existing figure skating ones

(2)delivering a vehicle to showcase Zagitova's full grasp of the skating vocabulary and more

(3) introducing a new genre/choreography of program that resembles traditional ballet/symphonic construction - strong heavy-weight elements (no bonus) in the first half building up to a grand finale of exhilarating "fireworks", i.e. jumps (10% bonus) that left no room for breath.

:agree:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This question of what the ISU means by a well-balanced program is still bugging me. It can't simply mean to do one jump at the north end of the rink and then the next jump at the south.

I did find this sentence under the Choreography/Composition criteria:



I guess "balanced" ought to mean, "not lopsided" in terms the substance and gravitas of the program. If you do all the jumps at the beginning (or end), then you are expected to balance that by putting elements of equal weight in the other half.

However, it did not take much investigation to learn (just Google it) that in ISU-talk, the "well-balanced program" has, since the 1990s at least, referred to the list of requirements that a skater must present in order to show complete mastery of the "skating vocabulary" (I love that phrase ), as opposed to relying on the same skill over and over. (For example, the Zayak rules are an attempt to "balance" the jump requirements.)

Here is the most interesting document that pooped up. It is interesting because it goes quite a bit into the history of the term. The document is old, but it conveys the idea pretty well.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/wellsngl.htm

Im pretty sure it means each part and section OF THE ICE rink (judging by the way CO is marked in competitions). They change name of Choreography to word Composition not to distract people with every day use of word choreo, cause it has too artistic implication. And to say how is not choreo itself what is judged, but skater performance of choreo. Choreo itself doesnt have importance. Skater who have better CO (we all agree in part that he/she should project-show idea of the programme more and perform more different elements and variations of the elements) 'draw more lines' in more diferent directions on ice surface during skating and you have those schemes with lines on ice which represents CO. Edit: And of course that first half of the programme is not empty of substance if you have other required elements in it such is StSq, CoSq , spins and other non required skating elements (transitions) and skater is moving across the ice rink while performing it. Its not the same like when someone is doing just simple stroking in it which is calling an empty part of the progamme!