2017 GP Cup of China Ladies FS

[Mathman]

It would be stupid to give higher mark for something then later they offset by reduction in other.

The idea of the ISU judging system is that you can get points in lots of different ways. Sometimes skaters sacrifice one point-getter for another. If you are capable of getting extra points by placing all your jumps in the second half, good for you. You got some extra points.

Now let's try for even more points, Choose your music and design your choreography so that your jump placements augment the artistic effect of the program as a whole. Now you have the best of both worlds, and lots of points, both TES and PCS.

 

[Purv]

Nobody cares whether programmes identical or not. That is not a judging criteria. You can place your elements anywhere you want. You do not like it? fine. But don't assume that others won't or that your dislike should affect the skater's scores when all she/he just trying to do is meet the competition requirements in order to win.

The current rules actually encourage and appreciate just the opposite. Otherwise why would they give 2nd half bonuses???? It would be stupid to give higher mark for something then later they offset by reduction in other. Make no sense. Read the rulebook.

They give 2nd half bonusses, but I heard that they are gonna after Olympic abolish that rule, and they will be more strict with it.I think they are sick of it already, as with tanos

 

[whatif]

The idea of the ISU judging system is that you can get points in lots of different ways. Sometimes skaters sacrifice one point-getter for another. If you are capable of getting extra points by placing all you jumps in the second half, good for you. You got some extra points.

Now let's try for even more points, Choose your music and design your choreography so that your jump placements augment the artistic effect of the program as a whole. Now you have the best of both worlds, and lots of points, both TES and PCS.

Fine with that. I am all for maximising the points as that's whole point. But the rules also have to make sense, do give extra points for even harder approach, but you can't reward and then punish people for the same thing.

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They give 2nd half bonusses, but I heard that they are gonna after Olympic abolish that rule, and they will be more strict with it.I think they are sick of it already, as with tanos

Well, then we'll talk.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

One's artistry based on the same program don't just suddenly drastically improve overnight. Just as someone's PCS don't suddenly drop overnight. Yet Both happened in this competition, literally overnight.

I literally cannot deal with these unliteral literallies.
Nobody skated to the same program two days in a row and PCS have a lot to do with the programs, they are not solely about the skater's skills.

 

[OS]

I literally cannot deal with these unliteral literallies.
Nobody skated to the same program two days in a row and PCS have a lot to do with the programs, they are not solely about the skater's skills.

Nor are they solely just about transitions. Transitions just for transitions sake is just poor choreography/compositions and should affect performance and interpretation.

All things considered. You are right, they are not the same programs, when this version was a dumbed down from the one at Junior worlds where she received 62 PCS lower PCS than Marin's junior program then, who actually improved here with a different and a maturer program. Alina may deserve the TES, but the PCS scoring is completely unjustified, especially if it involves deflating others to get there.

 

[Mathman]

Well, then we'll talk.

I think that Purv raises a valid point, though. The ISU does seem to swing back and forth between extremes. Do you remember the Biellmann craze? The ISU decided to make a Biellmann position a bullet feature of spins and spirals. The next year everybody was doing Biellmanns on every element, mostly poorly. The ISU said, "No, no, that's not what we want," and they changed the rules.

 

[GGFan]

The idea of the ISU judging system is that you can get points in lots of different ways. Sometimes skaters sacrifice one point-getter for another. If you are capable of getting extra points by placing all your jumps in the second half, good for you. You got some extra points.

Now let's try for even more points, Choose your music and design your choreography so that your jump placements augment the artistic effect of the program as a whole. Now you have the best of both worlds, and lots of points, both TES and PCS.

I appreciate your level headed analysis. As with any athletic enterprise there are debates among fans about the direction of the sport. What I would like to see less of: 1) criticism about a skater is all about nationality (maybe for some but not for most of us); 2) criticizing a skater's scores means that one is a hater or anti (we're better than this); and 3) using ages as defenses--folks can criticize skating without somehow hating children.

There have always been debates about what figure skating is and should be. These notions of balance, taking one's time, pointing their feet, etc. are not anti-Eteri or anti-Russian--they represent a school of thought about what figure skating should be. Some have noticed things being rewarded that we don't agree with and its completely fair game to criticize. Programs with 0 jumps in the first half have not been the norm in figure skating. It is completely legitimate to criticize that and completely legitimate to respond.

Those of us who talk artistry are not just making it up. There is lots of historical precedent. For example

Bechke and Petrov discussing the lines and their approach to skating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFuCPO5mIJk
Or why what they're trying to create is ballet on ice: https://youtu.be/qK-WlFBKolo?t=6m37s
Here's John Curry going on at length about Janet Lynn's extension, turn out, taking her time etc.: https://youtu.be/Jn0VZyztldo?t=30s

There's a second half bonus for jumping. So what? People think that is being overemphasized and that's completely fair given the history of the sport. I don't have time to be hating 15 year olds. I'm just stating my opinions.

 

[whatif]

I think that Purv raises a valid point, though. The ISU does seem to swing back and forth between extremes. Do you remember the Biellmann craze? The ISU decided to make a Biellmann position a bullet feature of spins and spirals. The next year everybody was doing Biellmanns on every element, mostly poorly. The ISU said, "No, no, that's not what we want," and they changed the rules.

But why blame the skaters? Why do they have to be punished for ISU misdoings? Purv should direct her/his anger there and stop nitpicking on skaters for doing their job as they are told. That's all I am saying.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

Where does it say that balanced=not everything in a row. Pls, show me!!!!!

The current rules actually encourage and appreciate just the opposite. Otherwise why would they give 2nd half bonuses???? It would be stupid to give higher mark for something then later they offset by reduction in other. Make no sense. Read the rulebook.

I want your last sentence to be pinned somewhere everyone can see before commenting.

 

[Purv]

But why blame the skaters? Why do they have to be punished for ISU misdoings? Purv should direct her/his anger there and stop nitpicking on skaters for doing their job as they are told. That's all I am saying.

Why are you doing this? Making me someone I am not . What anger?I am not angry, rather bored. I dont blame Zagitova. Where did i post it? Rather russian federation or Eteris methods with this backloaded programs and tano and making look ALL her girls identical. She (wiht her favourite choreographer who doesn know anything about chore) kill women figure skating. For me women figure skting is most boring .I dont watch it with exitiment. I dont care for any skater. I dont care actually who wins.I am not into it personally I dont find any personalities there as well

 

[whatif]

Why are you doing this? Making me someone I am not . What anger?I am not angry, rather bored. I dont blame Zagitova. Where did i post it? Rather russian federation or Eteris methods with this backloaded programs and tano and making look ALL her girls identical. She (wiht her favourite choreographer who doesn know anything about chore) kill women figure skating. For me women figure skting is most boring .I dont watch it with exitiment. I dont care for any skater. I dont care actually who wins.I am not into it personally I dont find any personalities there as well

Again you are assigning the blame in the wrong direction. That's not Eteri's fault. Also there are more than Eteri's girls in Russia and competing at international stage. If you think all Russian ladies look identical, you need to watch more figure skating before making your argument.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

Nor are they solely just about transitions. Transitions just for transitions sake is just poor choreography/compositions and should affect performance and interpretation.

All things considered. You are right, they are not the same programs, when this version was a dumbed down from the one at Junior worlds where she received 62 PCS lower PCS than Marin's junior program then, who actually improved here with a different and a maturer program. Alina may deserve the TES, but the PCS scoring is completely unjustified, especially if it involves deflating others to get there.

I think Alina is the one that improved both technically and artistically and having a program that she knows really well helped her along the way. Marin is the one lagging behind even though she is still really good in her own way. I came to an understanding that some people just don't like ballet because this program is not childish at all, its just ballet-like. It's okay if you prefer Marin's performences and enjoy them more but objective criteria doesn't work like that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't think that this tells the whole story. "Balance" consists of appropriate placement of highlight elements in space and time, in accordance with the musical structure and the vision of the choreography. It also refers to a "balance" between different kinds of elements -- spins and footwork should be highlighted as well as jumps.

In the ISU discussions that led up to the second half bonus rule, the thinking was not only to reward stamina but also to correct the "imbalance" of doing all the jumps in the first minute, then allowing the program to peter out in intensity at the end. A truly balanced program should have features of interest throughout. In this sense, I do not find Alina's program to be out of balance. There was plenty of cool stuff going on even before the jump-storm started.

People were talking about "a balanced program" long before the IJS was a glimmer in Mr. Cinquanta's eye. It is not really explicitly defined (although a few pieces of the definition are thrown out here and there) in the current IJS rules, nor need it be.

I edited my previous post to explain why that is not what is judged and i will say it again. You just need to use common sense. All Zagitova programmes are skated the same way in that regard, its choreographed by stsq, spin, jump,jump,jump, thats one concept skated again and again, there is no logic to judge equal things multiple times. But her usage of ice rink and music can change from competition to competition (dependable of her mental preparation, speed, stamina, small mistakes during the skate) so that is what is judged! There is no logic to judge multiple times concept of the same choreography, and in first place there is no logic to judge different concepts of choreographies in sport competitions. Judges are judging only what skater performs on the ice.

 

[whatif]

I think Alina is the one that improved both technically and artistically and having a program that she knows really well helped her along the way. Marin is the one lagging behind even though she is still really good in her own way. I came to an understanding that some people just don't like ballet because this program is not childish at all, its just ballet-like. It's okay if you prefer Marin's performences and enjoy them more but objective criteria doesn't work like that.

Why would anyone even compare Honda and Alina? Both in different leagues. Honda in the current state is not competitive against Zagitova.

 

[GGFan]

I think Alina is the one that improved both technically and artistically and having a program that she knows really well helped her along the way. Marin is the one lagging behind even though she is still really good in her own way. I came to an understanding that some people just don't like ballet because this program is not childish at all, its just ballet-like. It's okay if you prefer Marin's performences and enjoy them more but objective criteria doesn't work like that.

None of these things are mutually exclusive. You can have criticisms of both Alina and Marin and still think Marin is a superior interpreter. You can like ballet and think Alina does a fine job and still think her interpretation is not deep or mature. Not every ballet offers the opportunity or calls for sophisticated interpretation. John Curry himself said about Don Quixote that he only did it because it was obvious enough for everyone to get it. He thought he had much more interesting and daring pieces that were not properly credited.

 

[Purv]

Again you are assigning the blame in the wrong direction. That's not Eteri's fault. Also there are more than Eteri's girls in Russia and competing at international stage. If you think all Russian ladies look identical, you need to watch more figure skating before making your argument.

Yes, this is Eteris "fault"(maybe not a fault, method)because she came up with it first. Call it whatever you want. And actually i dont blame anyone, You started with blaming Zagitova.
And yes believe me I KNOW there are more of Eteris girls atr international stage..And they do the same stuff , with little exceptions

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

Why would anyone even compare Honda and Alina? Both in different leagues. Honda in the current state is not competitive against Zagitova.

I honestly don't know myself but people just bring her up. They are ex-rivals I guess and Honda is considered an angel on ice because she has the cutest smile and judges should throw 10s in PCS to her because of it? (She really has the cutest smile btw )

Also they both skated in an event this year (Teipei?) and Marin got more PCS (not sure, have to check). I think people bring that up as a proof against Alina's scores in this event.

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

Yes, this is Eteris "fault"(maybe not a fault, method)because she came up with it first. Call it whatever you want. And actually i dont blame anyone, You started with blaming Zagitova.
And yes believe me I KNOW there are more of Eteris girls atr international stage..And they do the same stuff , with little exceptions

If Eteri has any fault, it is trying to make her skaters win.
If there is a problem ISU should change the rules first so that the coaches can instruct their skaters in accordance with the new and better rules.

 

[Purv]

If Eteri has any fault, it is trying to make her skaters win.
If there is problem ISU should change the rules so that the coaches can instruct their skaters in accordance with the new and better rules.

YEs, of course, thats obvious,right? But the way she chosed is hwell: She puts those girls in her frame and she doesnt let them develop
She invented one layout for Medviedeva.She teached her this one laoyut and when they tried to change it , she failed. And Medvedeva will be execute this one particular layout forever.Zagitova the same

 

[quadrupleaxel15]

None of these things are mutually exclusive. You can have criticisms of both Alina and Marin and still think Marin is a superior interpreter. You can like ballet and think Alina does a fine job and still think her interpretation is not deep or mature. Not every ballet offers the opportunity or calls for sophisticated interpretation. John Curry himself said about Don Quixote that he only did it because it was obvious enough for everyone to get it. He thought he had much more interesting and daring pieces that were not properly credited.

Good points. Not everyone has the explanations you have though. Some just want every skater to be exactly like their favourite.