2017 GP Internationaux de France Pairs FS

[4everchan]

Team Canada is more than safe for silver, but they're unlikely for gold. Russia now has 2 pairs who can outscore every Canadian pair, the women need no explanation, ice dance is where Canada gains some points back (only if Tessa & Scott do both programs) but it's not much, and men... it was already dicey with a Patrick in top shape but at the moment he hasn't even returned to training.

Individually: ice dance seems to favor the French and pairs... it's a toss-up; I don't think it's likely for Duhamel & Radford to win, but it's not out of the question or even to medal. Osmond will medal if she's clean but she hasn't ever done it; even doing what she did at Worlds with 6 triples won't be enough this year. Men... I don't think Patrick will medal.

i know some of us in the fan fest joke a lot about Patrick's whereabouts and activities...but "officially" he said he skipped on nhk to train...so can you tell us how you can write confidently that he hasn't returned to training? Or are you just sharing your opinion as fact?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Congrats for winning the event James/Cipres!

We don't always see eye to eye... but 100. Freaking. Percent.

 

[RemyRose]

small plastic star

Sigh, what are they supposed to do with those tacky stars? :disapp:

 

[Art&Sport]

Vanessa & Morgan's twist was off and funky looking today. Only got credit for a 3TwB. And they missed a couple other levels, which ended up being costly. I knew there had to have been a reason why their free skate barely outscored T/M's.

Yeah, come up with more excuses why J/C's scores were kept down. There is no good excuse. You are nitpicking on J/C, meanwhile T/M's throw quad twist on the dismount was 'funky' too. Not to mention T/M's 'funky' jumping passes, poor music selection, lack of on-ice connection, poor acting skills, cheesy costumes, and total lack of excitement in their skating.

T/M were overscored on PE, CO, and IN. And their TES was still higher than it should have been too. Meanwhile, James/Cipres were not given enough credit for the difficulty of their elements, especially in the sp. Yes, this wasn't the best J/C can skate. Skaters want to build and build over the course of a season and not peak too early. But still J/C have been consistent and clean all season long, and J/C have the two best choreographed, nuanced and exciting pairs programs this season and last. I call BS on the judging here and at Skate Canada. J/C should have been in second over D/R in the sp at SC, and they did win the fp over S/M, but were still held down in third place unfairly at SC! And now they are held back from winning in their home country.

J/C's scores are being micro-managed to hold them back. In fact, J/C have always been a very good team and exciting to watch right from the beginning of their pairing. But they've had a long hard slog with having to constantly prove themselves. That's what you always have to do when perceptions are automatically dismissive toward you as a skater of color in this sport. Vanessa knows this and she's experienced it, and dealt with it at every turn. It's always been the case. There are few black skaters to begin with and practically none at the top, but it's always been hard, even when they have tremendous talent. It's hard for every athlete in skating, but it's especially difficult for black skaters. It used to be difficult for Asian skaters too, but that changed many years ago with the advent of Michelle Kwan and some other Asian stars, and the tide turned in a big way.

The worst insult by the judges at this GP is that J/C were skating at home, and they deserved to win! T/M were going to make it to GPF regardless. But no, this sport is so political and prejudiced that the judges couldn't score fairly and give full credit where it's due, and send the correct message to T/M that this tacky free program and their performance here sucks!

I don't see any point in mincing words. Too often this sport isn't worth following. This GP event was quite awful with the judging and with a lot of the messy skating, especially from the men and from the ladies in the sp!

 

[TryMeLater]

Yeah, come up with more excuses why J/C's scores were kept down. There is no good excuse. You are nitpicking on J/C, meanwhile T/M's throw quad twist on the dismount was 'funky' too. Not to mention T/M's 'funky' jumping passes, poor music selection, lack of on-ice connection, poor acting skills, cheesy costumes, and total lack of excitement in their skating.

T/M were overscored on PE, CO, and IN. And their TES was still higher than it should have been too. Meanwhile, James/Cipres were not given enough credit for the difficulty of their elements, especially in the sp. Yes, this wasn't the best J/C can skate. Skaters want to build and build over the course of a season and not peak too early. But still J/C have been consistent and clean all season long, and J/C have the two best choreographed, nuanced and exciting pairs programs this season and last. I call BS on the judging here and at Skate Canada. J/C should have been in second over D/R in the sp at SC, and they did win the fp over S/M, but were still held down in third place unfairly at SC! And now they are held back from winning in their home country.

J/C's scores are being micro-managed to hold them back. In fact, J/C have always been a very good team and exciting to watch right from the beginning of their pairing. But they've had a long hard slog with having to constantly prove themselves. That's what you always have to do when perceptions are automatically dismissive toward you as a skater of color in this sport. Vanessa knows this and she's experienced it, and dealt with it at every turn. It's always been the case. There are few black skaters to begin with and practically none at the top, but it's always been hard, even when they have tremendous talent. It's hard for every athlete in skating, but it's especially difficult for black skaters. It used to be difficult for Asian skaters too, but that changed many years ago with the advent of Michelle Kwan and some other Asian stars, and the tide turned in a big way.

The worst insult by the judges at this GP is that J/C were skating at home, and they deserved to win! T/M were going to make it to GPF regardless. But no, this sport is so political and prejudiced that the judges couldn't score fairly and give full credit where it's due, and send the correct message to T/M that this tacky free program and their performance here sucks!

I don't see any point in mincing words. Too often this sport isn't worth following. This GP event was quite awful with the judging and with a lot of the messy skating, especially from the men and from the ladies in the sp!

While I do agree that J/C deserved the win here, I highly doubt that they didn't because Vanessa is black.
From the beginning of their career J/C had usually made some big mistakes during important skates - I even recall her falling on the ending lift once.
They even botched their skate at worlds last year - and that's why they are still seen as 2tier team (moving on up).

 

[NoNameFace]

Sigh, what are they supposed to do with those tacky stars? :disapp:

Evgenia could use them for making herself an earrings complimenting her FS outfit - tackiness to tackiness, match ideale!

 

[Art&Sport]

While I do agree that J/C deserved the win here, I highly doubt that they didn't because Vanessa is black.
From the beginning of their career J/C had usually made some big mistakes during important skates - I even recall her falling on the ending lift once.
They even botched their skate at worlds last year - and that's why they are still seen as 2tier team (moving on up).

And you fail to understand what I'm talking about. The sport is difficult for everyone. But the sport is very political, no matter what color you are. If it's not about color, it's about country and buzz and reputation and let's not forget quid pro quo scandals. All of the skaters are wonderful, but the people power-mongering behind the scenes and failing to provide good leadership are not so wonderful.

I'm just not going to mince my words. It's the elephant in the room that Vanessa is black. Actually we are all just human, but the world we live in doesn't recognize that fact, so we all have to deal with the artificial man-made labels. You don't recognize what I'm talking about possibly because you may not have experienced it yourself. Vanessa realizes she has to be that much better. But she's also confident in her abilities, and she's tough (you have to be in this sport, and as a matter of fact, she has to be even tougher). And she's also very gracious and she doesn't carry any chips on her shoulder. She doesn't have time for that. She keeps things in perspective. I think Morgan gets a little angry at times about not receiving credit for how good they are.

Of course J/C's skating skills can be improved. In fact, quite a few skaters' SS can be improved. But you see how your automatic response goes immediatly to trying to prove there's absolutely no prejudice and to make excuses for why J/C were scored the way they were at this competition by bringing up past mistakes in past competitions. There's pressure on skaters, but even more pressure when you're black, especially in big moments. Just ask Robin Szolkowy (who ironically is now coaching T/M). When he was at the Olympics in Sochi, he and Aliona were not greeted very warmly by the audience, and Robin felt the pressure and made an uncharacteristic mistake. Debi Thomas and Surya Bonaly experienced similar pressure and holding down of their marks. Bias happens all the time in this sport no matter who you are. I'm not saying all the judges are against J/C. Some of the attitudes are unconscious, but the politics is always prevalent, always. And skin color is just an added factor of difference to overcome in a political sport that is historically unwelcoming to diversity.

Once again, there are very few black skaters, and that's partly because it's an expensive sport and a difficult sport. Even if you are good as a black skater, particularly in the old days, you could not make it past juniors. And before the late 60s, early 70s, as a black skater, you could not even compete at all, because no club would accept you. Understand the history. This is traditionally an elitist sport. Even Carol Heiss and Dorothy Hamill who came from lower middle class upbringings had to get help and sponsorship to be accepted into skating clubs. Mabel Fairbanks was discriminated against and could never compete at Nationals. She was even barred from practicing in skating rinks until she was able to get help from kind people like Maribel Vinson Owen. Fairbanks created some famous skating moves and she was very talented. She had to go overseas to perform in skating shows. And she later became a coach in California, coaching quite a number of skaters who later became stars, including Tai Babilonia & Randy Gardner (whom she paired together when they were kids).

There's a conceit that T/M are better. But they actually should have to skate like they are better. And they didn't. They made too many mistakes, but above all they were held up on a number of PCS categories. Despite T/M having superb skating skills and nice aesthetics, they simply didn't show it in the fp and they were quite simply held up. If J/C had shown any major weakness or visibly faltered slightly, they would have been dropped down in the marks substantially.

BTW, J/C are no longer exactly second tier. They are competing with and beating some of the top tier teams, and are clearly better than a number of the second tier teams whether you agree or not. You can highly doubt whatever. It's easy for you to highly doubt. You're not Vanessa. And it's not as simple as she didn't win here because of her skin color. But that is a factor in how she's perceived, which plays a role in the scoring, consciously or unconsciously. And a lot of it is simply country politics as usual in a very political sport.

 

[bobbob]

And you fail to understand what I'm talking about. The sport is difficult for everyone. But the sport is very political, no matter what color you are. If it's not about color, it's about country and buzz and reputation and let's not forget quid pro quo scandals. All of the skaters are wonderful, but the people power-mongering behind the scenes and failing to provide good leadership are not so wonderful.

I'm just not going to mince my words. It's the elephant in the room that Vanessa is black. Actually we are all just human, but the world we live in doesn't recognize that fact, so we all have to deal with the artificial man-made labels. You don't recognize what I'm talking about possibly because you may not have experienced it yourself. Vanessa realizes she has to be that much better. But she's also confident in her abilities, and she's tough (you have to be in this sport, and as a matter of fact, she has to be even tougher). And she's also very gracious and she doesn't carry any chips on her shoulder. She doesn't have time for that. She keeps things in perspective. I think Morgan gets a little angry at times about not receiving credit for how good they are.

Of course J/C's skating skills can be improved. In fact, quite a few skaters' SS can be improved. But you see how your automatic response goes immediatly to trying to prove there's absolutely no prejudice and to make excuses for why J/C were scored the way they were at this competition by bringing up past mistakes in past competitions. There's pressure on skaters, but even more pressure when you're black, especially in big moments. Just ask Robin Szolkowy (who ironically is now coaching T/M). When he was at the Olympics in Sochi, he and Aliona were not greeted very warmly by the audience, and Robin felt the pressure and made an uncharacteristic mistake. Debi Thomas and Surya Bonaly experienced similar pressure and holding down of their marks. Bias happens all the time in this sport no matter who you are. I'm not saying all the judges are against J/C. Some of the attitudes are unconscious, but the politics is always prevalent, always. And skin color is just an added factor of difference to overcome in a political sport that is historically unwelcoming to diversity.

Once again, there are very few black skaters, and that's partly because it's an expensive sport and a difficult sport. Even if you are good as a black skater, particularly in the old days, you could not make it past juniors. And before the late 60s, early 70s, as a black skater, you could not even compete at all, because no club would accept you. Understand the history. This is traditionally an elitist sport. Even Carol Heiss and Dorothy Hamill who came from lower middle class upbringings had to get help and sponsorship to be accepted into skating clubs. Mabel Fairbanks was discriminated against and could never compete at Nationals. She was even barred from practicing in skating rinks until she was able to get help from kind people like Maribel Vinson Owen. Fairbanks created some famous skating moves and she was very talented. She had to go overseas to perform in skating shows. And she later became a coach in California, coaching quite a number of skaters who later became stars, including Tai Babilonia & Randy Gardner (whom she paired together when they were kids).

There's a conceit that T/M are better. But they actually should have to skate like they are better. And they didn't. They made too many mistakes, but above all they were held up on a number of PCS categories. Despite T/M having superb skating skills and nice aesthetics, they simply didn't show it in the fp and they were quite simply held up. If J/C had shown any major weakness or visibly faltered slightly, they would have been dropped down in the marks substantially.

BTW, J/C are no longer exactly second tier. They are competing with and beating some of the top tier teams, and are clearly better than a number of the second tier teams whether you agree or not. You can highly doubt whatever. It's easy for you to highly doubt. You're not Vanessa. And it's not as simple as she didn't win here because of her skin color. But that is a factor in how she's perceived, which plays a role in the scoring, consciously or unconsciously. And a lot of it is simply country politics as usual in a very political sport.

Vanessa and Morgan haven't really been underscored lately...they have been receiving mid 70s in the short and 140s in the long with programs that have small mistakes. Perhaps they didn't really get a home boost, but their PCS of 35/70 actually seems quite high considering their skating skills, which play a huge role in all PCS categories. PCS is not just about good choreography and aesthetic. And J/C have several elements which are not done to top quality. I hate T/M's programs and think their PCS should be lower, but you can tell that T/M are better skaters immediately if you watch them and J/C side by side.

As to your race argument in general, I can't prove for sure that it doesn't affect each individual judge subconsciously, but there doesn't seem to be an overall trend of underscoring of black skaters. The black skaters you mentioned were all scored pretty well, esp. Robin S who was often overscored in many occasions, IIRC.

 

[machin]

Debi Thomas and Surya Bonaly experienced similar pressure and holding down of their marks.

.[/QUOTE]

Couldnt bé more wrong.
Bonaly's marks are perfectly understandable given her nowhere to be found skating skill and sometimes questionable artistry. She actually was marked quite generously on several occasions.
Thomas never suffered this on international stage. Her international resume speaking for herself. Watch the competitions (as they are all online) and please tell me where she was robbed. She said she suffered it within USFSA which is USFSA's problem. She doesn't seems to be a rational person anymore too which give less weight to her side of the story, true or not.

 

[JustMe]

Unfortunately that's happened before. Canadian pairs skaters Brasseur and Eisler were the 1993 World gold medalists but only? took bronze at 1994 Olympics.

But they won a bronze behind two of the most memorable pair performances ever (and neither of those top two pairs competed the year before).

 

[4everchan]

But they won a bronze behind two of the most memorable pair performances ever (and neither of those top two pairs competed the year before).

yeah... a curse can live under many circumstances.... whatever happens, it seems like Canadian world champions don't win olympics.

 

[Art&Sport]

Vanessa and Morgan haven't really been underscored lately...they have been receiving mid 70s in the short and 140s in the long with programs that have small mistakes. Perhaps they didn't really get a home boost, but their PCS of 35/70 actually seems quite high considering their skating skills, which play a huge role in all PCS categories. PCS is not just about good choreography and aesthetic. And J/C have several elements which are not done to top quality. I hate T/M's programs and think their PCS should be lower, but you can tell that T/M are better skaters immediately if you watch them and J/C side by side.

As to your race argument in general, I can't prove for sure that it doesn't affect each individual judge subconsciously, but there doesn't seem to be an overall trend of underscoring of black skaters. The black skaters you mentioned were all scored pretty well, esp. Robin S who was often overscored in many occasions, IIRC.

Couldnt bé more wrong.
Bonaly's marks are perfectly understandable given her nowhere to be found skating skill and sometimes questionable artistry. She actually was marked quite generously on several occasions.
Thomas never suffered this on international stage. Her international resume speaking for herself. Watch the competitions (as they are all online) and please tell me where she was robbed. She said she suffered it within USFSA which is USFSA's problem. She doesn't seems to be a rational person anymore too which give less weight to her side of the story, true or not.

Your above comments @bobbob and @machin simply show your biases. It's worthless engaging with you since your minds are already made up.