2021 Nebelhorn Trophy: Men's Free Skate

[skylark]

I am happy with Vincent's performance today, and I enjoyed watching it.

That does not mean that Vincent is a steady, consistent performer with one disaster skate that anyone could have so let's all forgive and forget. He has had more than one "less than" skate. And he has also won a World medal. He in the past has confounded all expectations, good and bad.

Vincent appears to now have a mindset where previous bad performances inspire him, and I am here for that, and I hope he keeps it up. But I'm not going to post as though only the mighty Nathan Chen can defeat Vincent, and then barely.

The season is young.

And I should have said "Not all Jason fans." I'll fix that.

 

[el henry]

I think Vincent excels at overall program performance. In a completely different way than Jason does. Performance is partly objective and partly subjective. On the subjective side, Vincent's expression and emotion bring me right into his world. That's just me, but it's not only me. Plenty of others respond to his artistry.

I loved this German commentator! That's one of his phrases I'm going to co-opt from now on. 'such and such' a skater brought me into his/her/their world.

And on that you and I will disagree.

I do not believe that Vincent is simply different than Jason, I believe that he has not yet attained his levels of artistry and performance skills. I am impressed by his improvement in those areas, but I am not "moved". But that's why we have discussions on Boards.

And we agree the German commentator was

 

[skylark]

And on that you and I will disagree.

I do not believe that Vincent is simply different than Jason, I believe that he has not yet attained his levels of artistry and performance skills. I am impressed by his improvement in those areas, but I am not "moved". But that's why we have discussions on Boards.

And we agree the German commentator was

Yep.

But my point is, not everyone is "moved" by the same skaters. I think it's about taste, history, what speaks to me or you personally, what kind of artistry we each value. Among many other things.

 

[balabam]

Not interested at the end?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Congrats to men.. but i'm the only one thinking that Zhou score is too tooo generous .. both in PCS and TES

I think that his PCS was rather generous. I would have put it more around 85. He did have a clean skate with 4 quads and 2 axels so the overall impression of the skate was very strong (especially being last to skate compared to sloppier predecessors). The projection was good only towards the end, and while he did have transitions in between, there weren't many highlights (that outside-inside spread eagle was lovely though). There is still a certain awkwardness to him and his arms could be less stiff. The PCS in the SP though I thought was deserved. As far as TES, his TES was fine - I think the caller might have even been strict with a q here and there, but all those q's tempered how high his TES might have been. 4 quads and 2 axels cleanly landed.... His base value was 91.07 and his TES was "only" 99.04, so that meant he was showered with generous grade of execution. His StSq was also graded a level 3 so he didn't max out there either.

Some of the PCS was way out of line (esp. judge 3... 9.5 for SS? come on... but 8.00 for PE was a bit harsh too from judge 7).

In other competitions his TES might have actually been higher, if not for the strict tech specialist (Amano).

 

[treblemakerem]

Oops I just realised... You should have posted four leaf clovers for Connor!

I’m just catching up now. But had to mention four leaf clovers aren’t actually Irish, just lucky. That’s a common misconception. Shamrocks are Irish though and they have three leafs

 

[TontoK]

One thing you can say about Vincent: He's put himself out there. Two competitions under the scrutiny of international judges... early season for sure, but still... but he's competed and won, and by a large margin both times with impressive scores. Scores unmatched by any American man ever not named Nathan Chen.

Any supposition about how his main national and international rivals might do is just that: Supposition, because they haven't competed. We might think we know how they'd score, but we really don't know.

I like that he took his licks and came back with strong statements. And fans of American men's skating should be just as excited. That third spot he earned might be the spot that your favorite needs to make the Olympic Team.

ETA: As a fan of many American men - Chen, Zhou, Brown, Malinin, Paniot, Naumov, recent addition Sjoberg... I'm glad three of these will go and not only two.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

One thing you can say about Vincent: He's put himself out there. Two competitions under the scrutiny of international judges... early season for sure, but still... but he's competed and won, and by a large margin both times with impressive scores. Scores unmatched by any American man ever not named Nathan Chen.

Any supposition about how his main national and international rivals might do is just that: Supposition, because they haven't competed. We might think we know how they'd score, but we really don't know.

I like that he took his licks and came back with strong statements. And fans of American men's skating should be just as excited. That third spot he earned might be the spot that your favorite needs to make the Olympic Team.

ETA: As a fan of many American men - Chen, Zhou, Brown, Malinin, Paniot, Naumov, recent addition Sjoberg... I'm glad three of these will go and not only two.

I’m sure if Zhou gets 3rd and Brown 4th at Nationals and Zhou makes the team over Brown we won’t hear the end of how Brown helped earn the placements for a third spot while Zhou had to go to Nebelhorn.

 

[moonvine]

Dr Valtter VIRTANEN (FIN)
Sail
in a dark blue tunic with, um,hmm...velvet faux-open-coat effect on the torso and mesh sleeves, sides, yoke

4T< fall
3Fq
3Lz-hold on turn-1T
ChSq oooooh be careful with that slide
3S-1Lo ay
3A
3Lz< fall
2Lo-2T-2Lo
FCSp
StSq
FCCoSp
CCoSp

Awwww Is this the last we see of the good doctor?

I hope not Hes almost got that quad

 

[readernick]

And on that you and I will disagree.

I do not believe that Vincent is simply different than Jason, I believe that he has not yet attained his levels of artistry and performance skills. I am impressed by his improvement in those areas, but I am not "moved". But that's why we have discussions on Boards.

And we agree the German commentator was

No one skates like Jason. Even Yuzuru Hanyu at his finest doesn't have the detail oriented, perfectly executed choreography combined with seeming abandoned freedom of Jason imho. That being said, while Zhou's skating doesn't usually move me, I appreciate his seemingly honest emotion on the ice. He is really trying with all his heart and I applaud that. He gets over marked in SS and transitions ( like most skaters with multiple quads) , his posture isn't great, he doesn't extend his limbs fully but he is always progressing. I like skaters who work hard and want to improve even if they aren't my ideal type of skater.

The German commentator was adorable!

 

[anonymoose_au]

I’m sure if Zhou gets 3rd and Brown 4th at Nationals and Zhou makes the team over Brown we won’t hear the end of how Brown helped earn the placements for a third spot while Zhou had to go to Nebelhorn.

Ha I wish. Vincent has a dedicated hate club on Twitter, they wanted that 3rd spot but they also hate Vincent and want him to fail SO much. This must be so confusing for them... I bet next competition they'll be chanting fall-fall-fall now that they have no use him anymore.

It's really gross.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Also...did Brendan make it?! Is he going to the Olympics? Please tell me 7th is enough!

 

[moonvine]

I cheer for Adam Hagara to stay on top, but this Matthew SAMUELS is really good. Judges, see?

He almost has a real hydroblade

 

[anonymoose_au]

I'm not sure what your issue is.

Basically the issue is this...

About three years ago - yes THREE Vincent said something very stupid on Twitter (as we have all done in out lives) and for this, he had been made into a pariah by the Twitterati.

They refuse to let it go and act as if they've never said something horrible in their lives. They call him horrible names, refuse to show his programs if they're streaming an event he's at, mock him, wish for him to fail and generally act like he personally came to their house, slapped them in the face and killed their dog.

It upsets me a LOT. Vincent is a young man who made a mistake, but they will never forgive him. Sometimes I want to go through their Twitter accounts find the one time (or more!) they said stupid/offensive crap and drag them over the coals for it.

 

[karne]

Also...did Brendan make it?! Is he going to the Olympics? Please tell me 7th is enough!

It was enough. He got the spot.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It was enough. He got the spot.

Job done.

 

[karne]

Job done.

Indeed. The job was done.

Brendan had a rough couple of years, and did not even get to go to Stockholm - he was injured, so he withdrew, as is appropriate when one is injured - so he had no opportunity to secure Australia's spot earlier.

 

[sworddance21]

No one skates like Jason. Even Yuzuru Hanyu at his finest doesn't have the detail oriented, perfectly executed choreography combined with seeming abandoned freedom of Jason imho. That being said, while Zhou's skating doesn't usually move me, I appreciate his seemingly honest emotion on the ice. He is really trying with all his heart and I applaud that. He gets over marked in SS and transitions ( like most skaters with multiple quads) , his posture isn't great, he doesn't extend his limbs fully but he is always progressing. I like skaters who work hard and want to improve even if they aren't my ideal type of skater.

The German commentator was adorable!

Catching up on this thread...I was watching Vincent's skate today - what a WONDERFUL SKATE! As I watched (a couple of times) I was trying to figure out what it is that I see differently in his skating from Jason's. Now - I'm unabashedly a Jason fan, but I love Nathan and others. I'm also a choreographer and dance teacher so I was trying to look critically. Vincent skated today with passion and emotion, certainly. He's getting better and better at that! What I see is (and I'm trying to figure out how to articulate this) his arms and legs seem to be moving from where they are attached at his body. With Jason (and Patrick Chan and sometimes Shoma) Everything originates in the core. His port de bras comes from the center of his back. His legs move from the center. There is a whole body-ness about his movement that I don't see from Vincent. Kolyada has that wholly connected feeling when he moves, sometimes, too. With Vincent - and some others - I see the trunk being stable and the limbs moving around it. There are carriage and posture differences as well. I think Vincent could also be better served by pants that are a little looser around the knees. That - for me - would disguise what looks to me like a knee that doesn't quite lengthen all the way at the back even though I see him stretching the leg.

That's a lot of stream of consciousness - I'm sorry! I'm just kind of trying to quantify a little what is very subjective.

That said - YAY Vincent! What a wonderful skate! (And yes - the German announcer was awesome.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Indeed. The job was done.

Brendan had a rough couple of years, and did not even get to go to Stockholm - he was injured, so he withdrew, as is appropriate when one is injured - so he had no opportunity to secure Australia's spot earlier.

A withdrawal is appropriate if an injury precludes you from competing. If a skater feels they are capable of competing, they should. Skaters compete with minor and even major injuries all the time. Was Zhou’s injury as severe as Kerry’s? Do you even know what Zhou’s injury was? If Brendan were injured but felt suitable enough to compete he would have ... and if he failed I’m sure you would have cut him slack, instead of taking it as an opportunity to rake him over the coals.

And to be honest, if Zhou had withdrawn from Worlds due to injury, and his replacement failed to make the free skate, I think some folks who just inherently dislike Zhou in general probably would have then somehow held that against Zhou for not toughing it out.

 

[skylark]

A withdrawal is appropriate if an injury precludes you from competing. If a skater feels they are capable of competing, they should. Skaters compete with minor and even major injuries all the time.

This is what I've been thinking too. It happens all the time. The skaters and their coaches evaluate the risk and take measures to not get injured further if possible, but it's always a risk. Part of their training and philosophy is "we get up." That becomes a habit. Most skaters will skate through pain from time to time.

Was Zhou’s injury as severe as Kerry’s? Do you even know what Zhou’s injury was? If Brendan were injured but felt suitable enough to compete he would have ... and if he failed I’m sure you would have cut him slack, instead of taking it as an opportunity to rake him over the coals.

Exactly.

And to be honest, if Zhou had withdrawn from Worlds due to injury, and his replacement failed to make the free skate, I think some folks who just inherently dislike Zhou in general probably would have then somehow held that against Zhou for not toughing it out.

That's the sort of thing that is so difficult to take. That and just pure meanness which goes far beyond a constructive critique.