2021 Worlds: Men's SP "Thoughts and Observations"

[badknees]

OK, soooooo, tried reading through all 97 pages of the mens SP and all I could come up with is..........

Because Zhou is not in the top 24 at Worlds, the U.S. will have to send skater or skaters to Nebelhorn.

How many skaters can go to Nebelhorn?
Can it be Zhou?
Who picks the skaters?
What place do they have to come in at Nebelhorn?

If only 2 U.S. skaters were here at Worlds and the placement equaled 13, do they get the 3 spots for Olympics and don't have to send anyone to Nebelhorn?

Thanks!

 

[ramurphy2005]

OK, soooooo, tried reading through all 97 pages of the mens SP and all I could come up with is..........

Because Zhou is not in the top 24 at Worlds, the U.S. will have to send skater or skaters to Nebelhorn.

How many skaters can go to Nebelhorn?
Can it be Zhou?
Who picks the skaters?
What place do they have to come in at Nebelhorn?

If only 2 U.S. skaters were here at Worlds and the placement equaled 13, do they get the 3 spots for Olympics and don't have to send anyone to Nebelhorn?

Thanks!

Because Zhou didn't make the free skate, Nathan and Jason have to keep their placements to 13 or less.

If that happens, someone has to go to Nebelhorn to earn back that third spot for the Olympics. The skater that goes cannot be Nathan or Jason. Vincent could go, but the US could send a different skater.

 

[Fireplace7890]

Quick question... if one of the 24 qualifiers had to withdraw before the free skate, would Vincent be moved up to take their place or does that spot remain empty? I believe it’s the latter but someone asked me that question today and I wasn’t sure so I thought this would be the best place to ask.

 

[mrrice]

Because Zhou didn't make the free skate, Nathan and Jason have to keep their placements to 13 or less.

If that happens, someone has to go to Nebelhorn to earn back that third spot for the Olympics. The skater that goes cannot be Nathan or Jason. Vincent could go, but the US could send a different skater.

I think the US should send Vincent and let him deal with knowing he has to deliver. For him to miss the FS is a huge deal and he needs to redeem himself. I know that training has been sketchy but, it's been that way for all the skaters

 

[bouncy]

I had to call the cops because Keegan was robbed.

Hands down. And Jason (PCS-wise)!

 

[moonkat]

I think the US should send Vincent and let him deal with knowing he has to deliver. For him to miss the FS is a huge deal and he needs to redeem himself. I know that training has been scetchy but, it's been that way for all the skaters

Does the US have someone else to send?

I think Nathan is still going to win, since he's in 3rd place. US will find a way to get those 3 spots.

 

[Apple1078]

Does the US have someone else to send?

I think Nathan is still going to win, since he's in 3rd place. US will find a way to get those 3 spots.

I think Yaro Paniot is due to get his citizenship later this year. He would be an option and could actually be a threat for Vincent if we look towards Olympic team selection in 2022. He had 4 quads (I think) in his FS and was 3rd in the FS (after Nathan and Vincent) at USNats and 4th overall.

 

[Jeanie19]

Does the US have someone else to send?

I think Nathan is still going to win, since he's in 3rd place. US will find a way to get those 3 spots.

The U.S. have many potential top 10 skaters. I think they should send 5 men to Philadelphia intl this summer and the top scorer goes to Nebelhorn to get the 3rd spot.

 

[el henry]

Does the US have someone else to send?

I think Nathan is still going to win, since he's in 3rd place. US will find a way to get those 3 spots.

The US has an embarassment of riches for men, and could theoretically send any of their other top men: Tomoki Hiwatashi, Yarik Paniot, Andrew Torgashev, Ilia Malinin if he is a senior internationally. Camden Pulkinen, Alex Krasnozhon. All have the goods to medal at Nebelhorn (particularly considering that it will be a "wild card" event without the "top" skaters there).

Many folks are high on Paniot after US Nats, but I am not as convinced. Sadly, Vincent showed that putting all one's eggs in the quad basket may not be the best idea.

But I love @Jeanie19's idea. Presuming it is safe to attend events by late July

 

[Apple1078]

There's also Maxim Naumov. So many. Already looking forward to USNats next year.

 

[ice coverage]

Quick question... if one of the 24 qualifiers had to withdraw before the free skate, would Vincent be moved up to take their place or does that spot remain empty? I believe it’s the latter but someone asked me that question today and I wasn’t sure so I thought this would be the best place to ask.

I think you are correct that the FS spot would remain empty, per page 89 of ISU Special Rules:

If one or more Competitors having obtained scores that would have qualified them for the next Segment decide to withdraw their participation before the beginning of that Segment, then the open spot(s) will not be substituted by any other Competitor(s) and the number of maximum qualified Competitors for that Segment will be reduced by the number of withdrawn Competitors.​

---

The US has an embarassment of riches for men, and could theoretically send any of their other top men: Tomoki Hiwatashi, Yarik Paniot, Andrew Torgashev, Ilia Malinin if he is a senior internationally. Camden Pulkinen, Alex Krasnozhon. All have the goods to medal at Nebelhorn (particularly considering that it will be a "wild card" event without the "top" skaters there). ...

Well ... I am as big a fan of U.S. men as you are, and my optimism re 2021 Nebelhorn is more cautious than yours.

Leaving Nathan and Jason aside:

Many of the U.S. men can be unpredictable. When the time comes, I hope that USFS will give careful thought as to which one would be the best bet for Nebelhorn. I don't think the 2021 field there should be underestimated. It's looking very possible that it will include one man from Canada (other than Messing), one from Korea (other than Cha), one man from France (other than Aymoz). Maybe one man from Russia (other than Kolyada and Semenenko). Litvintsev and Fentz were far from their best in Stockholm. Kerry and Yee could be back. And I'm sure that I am overlooking other possible entries.​

 

[s_parks]

Yes I have. Chan has sublime skating skills, but boy was he held up in PCS with fall-ridden performances. Chen is the same, but with less sublime skating skills.

Which makes it worse.

I've been on a nostalgia kick and was watching a bunch of old PChiddy clips, and dang, his SS floored me again like I've never seen him skate before. If I ever saw him live I'd probably be one of those many judges who saw his PCS with rose-tinted glasses, getting bamboozled by his edges, splats be damned.
Alright, I'm not helping the discussion on scoring with integrity...

 

[Sweet Dream]

Yuma Kagiyama, such a skating genius with super jumping technique, and all those landings were as solid as a rock, simply amazing! My prediction for the mens went quite well, although this was only the SP!

 

[readernick]

Which makes it worse.

I've been on a nostalgia kick and was watching a bunch of old PChiddy clips, and dang, his SS floored me again like I've never seen him skate before. If I ever saw him live I'd probably be one of those many judges who saw his PCS with rose-tinted glasses, getting bamboozled by his edges, splats be damned.
Alright, I'm not helping the discussion on scoring with integrity...

Oh me, too. I am such a sucker for good SS. 10s from me... All the way

 

[moonvine]

The U.S. have many potential top 10 skaters. I think they should send 5 men to Philadelphia intl this summer and the top scorer goes to Nebelhorn to get the 3rd spot.

Fabulous idea since I will be there. I vote for this idea!!

 

[moonvine]

I think the US should send Vincent and let him deal with knowing he has to deliver. For him to miss the FS is a huge deal and he needs to redeem himself. I know that training has been sketchy but, it's been that way for all the skaters

I think this is a terrible idea, sorry. I disagree that USFS should send Vincent as some sort of test when precious Olympic spots are on the line. They should send whoever is skating the best at that time. If that is Vincent fine. If not send whoever it may be.

 

[Fourleaf Clover]

What are my thoughts on Men's Short Program:

Ehh.. Same old, same old. Overscoring here, underscoring there.. A splatfest here, and brilliant skating there.

 

[eppen]

Did watch the whole thing but was distracted by trying to catch at least a bit of Javier Fernández in his new job as a commentator. That broadcast was annoyingly much delayed compared to the official stream, so quite often I ended up watching the real time ISU stream without sound and listening to Javi comment on the previous skater... Although my Spanish is far from good, I think he did a good job, had things to offer on addition to just the technical side of things etc. (But am not really surprised by this having listened to his interviews for years now.)

But the actual competition? A bit like the ladies the other day, surprises maybe due to the unusual season and lack of competition routine. Did Vincent Zhou fail so spectacularly because this is his first big/proper competition in two seasons? I hope he is not too discouraged by this, but takes whatever the lesson was and uses that in future endeavours. I also did not expect to see Aleksandr Selevko as the last qualifier nor a couple of other names at the very bottom of the results list.

I would also count among big surprises the fact that I actually enjoyed Yuzuru Hanyu and Jason Brown skating. Hanyu's SP looked now as if it actually was made to the music and he was actually selling it - if the stiff competition from Chen has forced him to go in this direction, I am all for it. Though it has to be said that miming the lyrics feels a bit embarrassing as a major choreo tool for someone who is hailed as a master of artistry and interpretation.

Jason's SP is rather brilliant in content and style and it is by far my fave from him - cool, calm, confident, everything just so. It is sometimes hard to understand the thinking behind the scoring, but I think currently there is a clear link to the tech content. Jason can do all that cool stuff between the jumps because he is not using that energy and time to prep for quads. That he does not get those 10s could be because that score is left for someone who actually does both (although no such skater seems to be present currently). The principles for PCS have changed in time - the comparisons to Chan and others before 2018-9 changes are irrelevant because PCS was clearly not tied to the delivered tech content at the time (and the changes to the current system does show that IJS can be developed also positively).

Kagiyama was very impressive - I like the program a lot. The choreo actually reflects changes in tempo and style of music, both rhytmically and otherwise Yuma is also capable of showing the changes, keeping up with the rhythm and I love love love love that in any skater. He is still a bit juniorish, but that will hopefully pass with time. I wonder if he is the future?

Chen's fall could maybe be expected statistically - he has had a a very long run of not messing up royally. Now it remains to be seen what he can do from this situation. He is used to being chased, not having to chase. The program is just not very good. He is not very convincing as the wondering, boozing and womanizing desperado of the lyrics. But at least he kept the costume nodding to the Mexican origin of the mariachi song and did not go for one of the Wang T-shirts.

Shoma Uno and Kevin Aymoz both have programs that take their inspiration from "native cultures". In Shoma's case this is audible in the music as a reference to Lakota language, chants and religious concepts, but the choreo could have been made literally to any music, the movement does not reflect the original ideas apart from maybe one arm/upper body move in the latter part. In Kevin's case there are no references to known cultures (AFAI could see/hear), but he uses all kinds of movement different from the usual figure skating vocabulary to create a culture of his own. Shoma's take smacks of maybe well-intentioned but still ignorant and quite disrespectul cultural appropriation of Native American culture, Kevin actually manages to do something exciting and cool.

Han Yan is one of the few skaters ever that could just do crossovers and maybe a couple of other steps and turns for the duration of the program and I would be perfectly happy to watch it (the others being Chan and Denis Ten, maybe also Kaori Sakamoto). Such a pity he really has not been able to up his tech content to quads.

I wish they could somehow combine the good parts of Rizzo and Grassl to make one good Italian male skater.

Nikolaj Majorov can sell a program for sure, but he should maybe learn to keep his mouth shut - it took away quite a lot from his credibility.

And last but not least, Aleksandr Selevko - I love that hiphop program to death, the first time when the style is actually used through the entire program and not just as a meaningless prop for 10 seconds. And he is soooo good with it. The jumps made me wanna cry out of despair though, because he is not that bad at all. I am greatful to Zhou for failing to qualify bcs this allowed Selevko to get to the FS.

Edit: The judging panel. One of the least connected with any of the big names in years. The Russian judge was the only one with a contender in the game. The others were GBR, AUT, UKR, FIN, GEO, SWE, SUI, and CZE. No national bias, no block voting, no corrupt deals for results in the other disciplines?

E

 

[LoopCombo]

Nathan Chen is reaching Patrick Chan levels of being held up. His PCS inflation is second to only the Tutberidze girls.

Agree, except that Chan had the super pretty skating skills, whereas Chen’s are really not as special.

Edit: I’m late reading this thread — you already said the same thing!

 

[LoopCombo]

1. Jason.

A masterclass in skating. I don't often do "wuzrobbed", but what is PCS for, if not for that skate?

2. Donovan qualified for the FS. That put me in the mood. (Sorry I couldn't resist).

3. Keegan clean! And pointing to his wedding ring

So sad for Vincent. Never want to see a disaster skate from anyone

After looking at protocols, I have often wondered what PCS is for.