2023 Skate Canada Women's Free Skate

[Joekaz]

I apologise if you're talking about another poster, but I think it was my comment that started this rabbit hole, so I feel justified to defend myself.

In my case, I only come to the international threads when criticising missed calls and judge bias, simply because I don't watch Russian Domestic Competitions. I haven't watched Channel 1 Russia livestreams since the start of the war, and therefore I don't criticise skaters that I don't watch. I have no idea what's going on in Russian FS right now, so it would be highly inappropriate of me to start writing posts in Russian domestic events section of goldenskate. I can't remember even ever posting in Russian domestic thread (it could have been possible a while back if I was talking about Russian men before the olympics, particularly on Olympic spot allocation on run up to the olympics).



The fact is some people are so defensive about criticising non-russian athletes, that it does overlook unfair judging internationally. For me, at the olympics, if Wakaba was judged to all other standards she would have won the olympic short program, without a shadow of a doubt. And for me, that means ahead of the Russian girls and ahead of Kaori. Wakaba got an < and q!, both of which were insanely harsh calls given Kaori had a clear lutz edge violation, Sherbakova had a bad edge, Trusova got ridiculous PCS inflation, and Valievas jumps got excessive GOE. I have pointed out four skaters, with different issues, who didn't get penalised for those issues. Three of those were Russian, One of them was Kaori. But Wakaba, another Japanese skater, was heavily penalised for minor issues.



In this event, most of the calls were correctly given. Kaori, as wonderful as she is, benefitted from incorrect calls at this competition, and this is unfair to other athletes at this event. On a conversation about this event, people get mad because I pointed out a biased/unfair call. I'm not insulting Kaori as a person, or other attributes. I'm saying that she was held to different standards, and given high GOE for an obvious flutz.

I agree 100 percent with you. Too many people are OK with corruption when it benefits their skater. Unfortunately, lack of integrity is a human trait not limited to skating. The Wakaba/Kaori comparison also points to another huge problem in skating. The huge influence of Feds and their influence on scoring of their favored and non favored skaters. As a fan of Wakaba and also Rika, I would go on the Japanese forum and criticize the scoring of the Russians and Kaori. I would get an avalanche of agreement on the Russian favoritism, but silence on Kaori, except for Wakaba and Rika fans who had experienced the JSF favoritism for her from the start. Lol

 

[Jammers]

Sadly because of the raised age limit i don't see any younger skaters coming along to challenge Kaori in Milan. A talent like Mao Shimada won't be able to compete in Milan because she will be a few months to young which is ridiculous the age limit should not have been raised to 17 and someone like Shimada will actually be 17 by the time of the 2026 Winter Olympics. I was all for banning 15 year old skaters from the Olympics and Worlds but 17 year old skaters should not be sitting at home in my opinion.

 

[Skating91]

I just think that if we make an effort to scrutinize every single jump closely and with pictures we should not just do it with an agenda in mind.

The pictures are there so people don't accuse me of exaggerating or misrepresenting what I watched, to strengthen my argument. To take the emotion out of the subject. Anyone can accuse the judges or technical panel of doing a bad job, but I provide proof to back it up.

Believe me, I could have gone through all four programs from the past two weeks and posted all the obvious errors but it would be too long, a waste of time so just stuck to the main competitors.

Why are people defending the judges? They don't even have to make the call in real time. Any other sport the missed calls would be investigated, corrected, recidivists would lose their jobs.

Also, if judges want to reward a skater for what they bring to the program they can give her good PCS which is what they do. The 73 Kaori was rewarded with for PCS would be a top ten PCS of all time by any other skater in the world. She holds the second highest PCS of all time. All deserved. However, there is no need to ignore the egregious wrong edge on the lutz, or ignore the clear underrotations in the short (while going through Kim's programs with a fine tooth comb). Either overlook these things for both Kaori and Kim, or be strict with both. If Kaori is good enough (which she is), she will win without favours from the judging panel.

 

[Skating91]

Sadly because of the raised age limit i don't see any younger skaters coming along to challenge Kaori in Milan. A talent like Mao Shimada won't be able to compete in Milan because she will be a few months to young which is ridiculous the age limit should not have been raised to 17 and someone like Shimada will actually be 17 by the time of the 2026 Winter Olympics. I was all for banning 15 year old skaters from the Olympics and Worlds but 17 year old skaters should not be sitting at home in my opinion.

#GOATamoto as I have been saying. She might be going for the 5th world championship in a row and the Olympic gold in 2026. She has to first win this season I suppose. Plus, Shimada usually falls on her 4T and this jump often becomes much more difficult over time, and maybe she struggles with her 3A once she is bigger at age 17, so there is no guarantee that Shimada will be a dominant senior. Haein Lee though is on an upward trajectory.

 

[chuckm]

The point about Shimada in reference to 4t and 3a is valid. Rika Kihira was landing 3a for years until physical maturity kicked in, and quite literally did her in competitively.

 

[icewhite]

Sadly because of the raised age limit i don't see any younger skaters coming along to challenge Kaori in Milan. A talent like Mao Shimada won't be able to compete in Milan because she will be a few months to young which is ridiculous the age limit should not have been raised to 17 and someone like Shimada will actually be 17 by the time of the 2026 Winter Olympics. I was all for banning 15 year old skaters from the Olympics and Worlds but 17 year old skaters should not be sitting at home in my opinion.

Milan is a long way to go, who knows who's a contender by then. I definitely see quite a few skaters able to challenge Kaori already in the next WC and certainly at the Olympics. One of Kaori's qualities she has shown the past seasons was that she was able to hold it together when it counted and be at her best at the important comps. But she's hardly unbeatable, even if her Lutz doesn't get called...

 

[Skater Boy]

I really think Kaori is a solid skater. She doesn't need the ultra C elements with the Russians gone. Loena is good but I am not sold onher as the very best.

 

[icewhite]

Haein Lee, Hana Yoshida, Mai Mihara, Loena, Yelim Kim, even Amber Glenn in case she ever gets it all together are some possible challengers to Kaori. One should also take into regard that the European skaters especially are often not ready early, since they usually don't have home schooling and prioritize other activies and relationships in their lifes... I wouldn't rule out Petrokina who has had serious health issues still improving significantly in the next years.

 

[SmileHappy34]

You do

I apologise if you're talking about another poster, but I think it was my comment that started this rabbit hole, so I feel justified to defend myself.

In my case, I only come to the international threads when criticising missed calls and judge bias, simply because I don't watch Russian Domestic Competitions. I haven't watched Channel 1 Russia livestreams since the start of the war, and therefore I don't criticise skaters that I don't watch. I have no idea what's going on in Russian FS right now, so it would be highly inappropriate of me to start writing posts in Russian domestic events section of goldenskate. I can't remember even ever posting in Russian domestic thread (it could have been possible a while back if I was talking about Russian men before the olympics, particularly on Olympic spot allocation on run up to the olympics).



The fact is some people are so defensive about criticising non-russian athletes, that it does overlook unfair judging internationally. For me, at the olympics, if Wakaba was judged to all other standards she would have won the olympic short program, without a shadow of a doubt. And for me, that means ahead of the Russian girls and ahead of Kaori. Wakaba got an < and q!, both of which were insanely harsh calls given Kaori had a clear lutz edge violation, Sherbakova had a bad edge, Trusova got ridiculous PCS inflation, and Valievas jumps got excessive GOE. I have pointed out four skaters, with different issues, who didn't get penalised for those issues. Three of those were Russian, One of them was Kaori. But Wakaba, another Japanese skater, was heavily penalised for minor issues.



In this event, most of the calls were correctly given. Kaori, as wonderful as she is, benefitted from incorrect calls at this competition, and this is unfair to other athletes at this event. On a conversation about this event, people get mad because I pointed out a biased/unfair call. I'm not insulting Kaori as a person, or other attributes. I'm saying that she was held to different standards, and given high GOE for an obvious flutz.

U don't need to apologize to me for what u think is unfair judging.
It been done a lot that we all comment on it . (Good or bad)
It seems u are talk about skaters not competing and comparing against ones that do.
It seem to me u all enjoyed the skating but picked apart that enjoyment by whom u thought should been scored by what u saw.
I enjoy read u posts that u upsets me by complaint about skaters not in competition.
U made it sound like those skaters never received urs or anything.
They did
My favorite skaters are usually call for them. Why even my untrained eye can see or speculate that it might be
I know u wasn't putting down Kaori or other skaters.

When u constantly mention skater by name and no calls ivegov to wonder ur motive? Then stated how ur skater always gets calls.
Even I didn't mean for it Togo sideways.

I enjoyed ur posts and could feel ur joy about what skaters did at SCI. Then it seem like turned wrong when got talk about skaters not there
Not ur fault for mention the one u thought got off.

 

[SmileHappy34]

Look at this thread, and tell me where I propped my favourite. Please, give one example. I do sit on panels at competitions, and have done training for sitting on panels. I know the layouts of elements, and when the issues are visible. I made one comment, about one issue in this one competition. No I didn't make a list of every issue every skater has ever made in the history of the sport. Nor have I excused every other issue that may have occured.

"Why bring them down over something petty because you thought someone should did better in scores or placement."
I'm not bringing them down. I did not go onto Kaori's instagram and make a comment against her, nor did I hate on her for having a bad lutz edge. A bad lutz edge is not a personality fault. Nor is it reason to lose a medal necessarily. I am against judge bias.

I made my post talking about skate Canada 2023 women's free skate. I mentioned a biased call. I'm not going to talk about a different event, or other skaters that benefited from missed calls.

Do you agree figure skating is a sport, and that figure skaters are athletes? If to you, it's just a performing art, then thats fine. But for me, a sport should have fair, unbiased arbitration. If somebody runs 100m faster than another, but they get it wrong and don't look at the photo finish correctly fans should be able to point that out. I hold Figure skating, probably in vain, to the same standards as other sports. Because to me, it is a sport.

It is the tech panel job to call edges. They didn't do their job correctly unfortunately. I have sat on panels before, and I promise you that her lutz edge would be noticeably incorrect from their position and from the tech panel cameras. But judges, at the same time, should not give +3 for incorrect lutz. Kaori's 3Lz isn't a +3 3Lz, and I'm simply pointing out that inflation.

Yes it is a sport. Yes they are athletes.
U mention to me biased call. Fine.

U don't like when I would point out bias call on ur skater or team

Yes they should be pointed out.
I mentioned it as a whole.
Not one blogger but all. On this forum.

The person who apologize who didn't need to relay that person is a judge that tech panel gets wrong. I didn't know she a judge. As a judge that person should have a venue to relate how certain tech panel gets it wrong most of time. (just not on public forum)
It becomes a runaway train wreck.

I did llike ur response but got ruined By the calls not made.

I am all for call a bad jump or edge.
I am not for singling out a skater , team.
It is easy to point out others skaters that are not our favorite or placed ahead and harder to recognize the bad edged, jumps in our favorite.
Their has always been biased mistake judging that fans complained it doesn't change outcome only what fans think of athletes and how they win. How they receive the emotional support from fandom.

 

[Joekaz]

Look at this thread, and tell me where I propped my favourite. Please, give one example. I do sit on panels at competitions, and have done training for sitting on panels. I know the layouts of elements, and when the issues are visible. I made one comment, about one issue in this one competition. No I didn't make a list of every issue every skater has ever made in the history of the sport. Nor have I excused every other issue that may have occured.

"Why bring them down over something petty because you thought someone should did better in scores or placement."
I'm not bringing them down. I did not go onto Kaori's instagram and make a comment against her, nor did I hate on her for having a bad lutz edge. A bad lutz edge is not a personality fault. Nor is it reason to lose a medal necessarily. I am against judge bias.

I made my post talking about skate Canada 2023 women's free skate. I mentioned a biased call. I'm not going to talk about a different event, or other skaters that benefited from missed calls.

Do you agree figure skating is a sport, and that figure skaters are athletes? If to you, it's just a performing art, then thats fine. But for me, a sport should have fair, unbiased arbitration. If somebody runs 100m faster than another, but they get it wrong and don't look at the photo finish correctly fans should be able to point that out. I hold Figure skating, probably in vain, to the same standards as other sports. Because to me, it is a sport.

It is the tech panel job to call edges. They didn't do their job correctly unfortunately. I have sat on panels before, and I promise you that her lutz edge would be noticeably incorrect from their position and from the tech panel cameras. But judges, at the same time, should not give +3 for incorrect lutz. Kaori's 3Lz isn't a +3 3Lz, and I'm simply pointing out that inflation.

I think the elephant in the room here when it comes to rotation calls is that the reality is women aren't good enough jumpers in general to do properly executed 3/3s. It's just that the ISU allows cheated jumps to add excitement. Look at Kaori again for example. Extreme pre-rotation and terribly cheated pick and still often under rotates. Yet she is considered a strong jumper. Honestly, a correctly executed 3/3 is equivalent to a 3A in difficulty for even the top women.

 

[Jeanie19]

I think the elephant in the room here when it comes to rotation calls is that the reality is women aren't good enough jumpers in general to do properly executed 3/3s. It's just that the ISU allows cheated jumps to add excitement. Look at Kaori again for example. Extreme pre-rotation and terribly cheated pick and still often under rotates. Yet she is considered a strong jumper. Honestly, a correctly executed 3/3 is equivalent to a 3A in difficulty for even the the top women.

So what women don't under rotate? And is there any woman with a true Lutz and Flip...I think Rika Khira is the only one I can think of.

 

[Joekaz]

So what women don't under rotate? And is there any woman with a true Lutz and Flip...I think Rika Khira is the only one I can think of.

Yea, other than Kihira most are only correct on one of them. I would say Higuchi has acceptable pre rotation and a decent enough pick, but she has rotation issues on the second jump half the time. If you properly execute the pick it acts like a pole vault, which will hinder your forward momentum.

 

[lunastartron]

I have yet to see the performances, however, seeing Starr finish below the other US, is truly shocking.

May I ask why this was shocking? I feel like Audrey, Starr, and Lindsay are all pretty commensurate in terms of reputation and results. Starr has the silver from last year’s Skate Canada but Audrey has a bronze from the locked down Skate America in 2020 as well as a 4th place finish among a pretty strong field at the 2022 Four Continents. They both grapple with sometimes wild inconsistency. Lindsay had a rough GP circuit last year but probably has the highest potential ceiling out of all three of them.

 

[mrrice]

May I ask why this was shocking? I feel like Audrey, Starr, and Lindsay are all pretty commensurate in terms of reputation and results. Starr has the silver from last year’s Skate Canada but Audrey has a bronze from the locked down Skate America in 2020 as well as a 4th place finish among a pretty strong field at the 2022 Four Continents. They both grapple with sometimes wild inconsistency. Lindsay had a rough GP circuit last year but probably has the highest potential ceiling out of all three of them.

I'll tell you why I'm shocked???? As the Pewter Medalist from Nationals, I was expecting big things from her. She defeated Lindsay at last years Nationals and I was hoping that would be her breakthrough into a medal threat.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Yea, other than Kihira most are only correct on one of them. I would say Higuchi has acceptable pre rotation and a decent enough pick, but she has rotation issues on the second jump half the time. If you properly execute the pick it acts like a pole vault, which will hinder your forward momentum.

Historically it was sometimes an issue for Kostner (who had both acceptable edge and prerotation for both jumps, but struggled with rotation consistency and sometimes getting out of the jump generally). Kostner wasn't known as a jumper, but her technique on jumps was great.

Tuktamysheva is a really weird case. Her lutz by all accounts is textbook, but on flip she dips the blade low to the ice and does 1/2 prerotation. For me it's strange to see the technique discrepancy which makes me wonder if it's easier to have a strong outside lutz edge without prerotation and easier to have an inside edge flip with prerotation.

That being said, polina Edmunds for example had both takeoff wise (can't remember her landing consistency).

Throwbacking further tatiana malina and Tonya harding were known for good lutz and flip technique.

In terms of 3-3s, I think it depends which 3-3. 3T+3T I would think would be easier, but very few skaters do that. I would say 3A, technique wise is another level of difficulty, but strength wise is much easier than the 2nd triple in a cascade for something like 3Lz+3T. There were certainly female skaters who did consistently well executed 3-3s in the past, but thinking nowadays there are very few.

 

[FlossieH]

I'll tell you why I'm shocked???? As the Pewter Medalist from Nationals, I was expecting big things from her. She defeated Lindsay at last years Nationals and I was hoping that would be her breakthrough into a medal threat.

Starr was, I believe, fully fit at US nationals? She is currently still recovering from the heart surgery she had in the Summer and clearly was not at full cardiovascular fitness - it was very obvious in the free that she lacked stamina and got breathless earlier than she normally would. I think you are being a bit harsh on her.

 

[Jeanie19]

I'll tell you why I'm shocked???? As the Pewter Medalist from Nationals, I was expecting big things from her. She defeated Lindsay at last years Nationals and I was hoping that would be her breakthrough into a medal threat.

She had heart surgery over the summer, so her results are actually remarkable.

 

[mrrice]

Oh My Gosh.......I had no idea. It's a miracle that she's out there at all.