Brexit or Bremain? What's your take?

[Alexz]

if he doesn't respect decision of people then he will just prove that democracy is illusion and a joke

I have no illusions regarding democracy.
I hope Brits will work it out in the way that will please most people. I personally very like the idea of national referendum thing on all important country's decision. It surely not upto politician decide, but it's the poeple who have to express their choice.

 

[HanDomi]

I will just wait and see what happens, because I simply don't know if something bad or not will happen after brexit. ONe will say something very bad will happen and the other one something very good. So , just wait and see.

 

[Alexz]

I will just wait and see what happens, because I simply don't know if something bad or not will happen after brexit. ONe will say something very bad will happen and the other one something very good. So , just wait and see.

I'm more inclined to the side of people who voted to Leave.

My friends from UK told me they are not too happy with economics and politics which comes with being part of EU. As I understood them with every year it's hard to be part of EU. Immigration, salaries are not going up, taxes are slightly increasing here and there, unemployment is on a rise. As they told me: globalization with EU was only good for their reachest of the reach, 2%-ers. Middle class is not getting larger or wealthier, simple folks are getting even poorer. Small business and middle size companies are is surviving mode, but it's only corporations and local British oligarchs are getting only richer, so it's hard to compete if you are running a small business like your own car shop or grocery store. So my heart is on simpler folks of UK.

It will be few stormy years ahead, but I hope you will solve your issues and renegotiate trade agreements and quota deals with EU and waive visa with other Europeans (as soon they re coming on purpose of tourism, hehe).

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Now what will happen legally ?

Doesn't Cameron still have the right to not call for the article 50 and open negotiations to have new opt outs and calm his people, or the referendum by itself is legally an application of the article ?

But that's the thing. Cameron was always in favour of leaving the EU. It was only after the discussions last year about the UK getting more concessions from the EU that he changed sides to wanting to remain.

Now, given that there were hardly any meaningful concessions given in those discussions, to me that says that Angela Merkel made some very scary threats about what would happen to the UK if it left the EU. And it scared him into submission.

So, even though Cameron was publically backing the remain campaign, and the referendum does not necessarily need to be the final decision, I think he will let the results be respected.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Alexz]

But that's the thing. Cameron was always in favour of leaving the EU. It was only after the discussions last year about the UK getting more concessions from the EU that he changed sides to wanting to remain.

Now, given that there were hardly any meaningful concessions given in those discussions, to me that says that Angela Merkel made some very scary threats about what would happen to the UK if it left the EU. And it scared him into submission.

So, even though Cameron was publically backing the remain campaign, and the referendum does not necessarily need to be the final decision, I think he will let the results be respected.

CaroLiza_fan

I always thought about Cameron was just bluffing. You know to bargain better terms from EU. Special relationship with EU, like with US..

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Del

 

[Alexz]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Quote:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Der Chef der rechtspopulistischen niederländischen Partei für die Freiheit, Geert Wilders, fordert nun ein Referendum in den Niederlanden. Schon am Donnerstag hatte Wilders im Fernsehsender Phoenix gesagt: "Man kann den Geist nicht mehr in die Flasche bekommen. Das Ende der EU hat schon begonnen, unabhängig davon, wie sich die Briten entscheiden."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1099418.html

Geert Wilders says that the genie is out of the bottle now, and he demands an EU referendum for the Netherlands.

France, Italy and Greece to have their own referendum now too? [/FONT]

 

[Alexz]

I guess I'm going to sleep now, it's 10pm, I need to turn in early. I will need a fresh head and a lot of energy tomorrow. It's gonna be hot for a few days on financial markets all around the globe now.

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Bremain 48,2%
Brexit 51,8%
93,2% reporting (30761107 votes)

I briefly calculated, it's still mathematically possible for Bremain option to win but only if its supporters get more than 74% of unprocessed votes. Unlikely.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I have no illusions regarding democracy.
I hope Brits will work it out in the way that will please most people. I personally very like the idea of national referendum thing on all important country's decision. It surely not upto politician decide, but it's the poeple who have to express their choice.

I agree. The politicians can't be trusted to make decisions as important as this. Because, they all have their own agendas.

And the campaigns by both sides just confirmed that no politicians are honest with us. Because everything one side said would happen if X was the result completely contradicted everything the other side said would happen if X was the result.

They're all liars. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows exactly what would happen!

But, we're going to find out soon...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Alexz]

So, I guess: see EU all later, lads.

 

[Alexz]

I agree. The politicians can't be trusted to make decisions as important as this. Because, they all have their own agendas.

And the campaigns by both sides just confirmed that no politicians are honest with us. Because everything one side said would happen if X was the result completely contradicted everything the other side said would happen if X was the result.

They're all liars. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows exactly what would happen!

But, we're going to find out soon...

CaroLiza_fan

What remarkable for me was is how most of rich celebrities were campaigning for Remain, but most of Labor Union and simple folks' representatives were all in for Leave.

 

[solani]

maybe for most western europe there is that sort of togetherness but for eastern europe, always being suspicious of back deals, the history of being partitioned and being colonies of bigger euro countries, they will feel exploited in the long run, sure they are getting alot of EU subsidies now but that will dry up soon once cheaper labor becomes more available from recent economic migrants.

As European demographic shifts in 10 years, the migrants bringing in their culture as it will fill the current atheist void with their cultural and religious heritage.

From what I read it's obvious that the Eastern European countries don't really value the boom that the EU brought them. I think that the people don't really see the connection, only what's negative.
I don't like your description of the Western European countries being atheist countries .. I assure you they are not. Most of the people I know only don't want to pay the church tax. Christian values matter.
Anyway, the EU isn't very good in public relations.
The migrants or better, the refugees aren't going to be any cheaper than workers from Eastern European countries, the opposite is to be expected. Because right now, f.e. workers from Poland are working for Polish companies in German companies in Germany and only get Polish wages. Many Germans don't feel comfortable with that f.e.. And me neither. That's als an example why the right wing populists are on the rise in Germany also. The poor working class (and yes, they're in Germany also) are frightened. Same work = different wages.

Anyway, I'm not happy about Brexit, but the Brits made their decision. But reforms in the EU will be easier now without them.
The British Pound is very low now, maybe I should plan a little trip? Or maybe I should better wait a little longer ... :dev3:

 

[sneakers]

that was fast, Britain is out
this looks to be like history lesson again, the birth of Anglicanism as opposition to a bigger power of the Pope from Rome (now the EU).

The EU will collapse sooner or later, its Bureaucrats, demographic and cultural divide will be its undoing. Elitism just doesn't work.

 

[MaiKatze]

I'm shocked and sad. I never in a million years thought this would happen. On the other hand, there probably won't be much change anyway. Just different contracts and less special treatment for the UK. For us on mainland Europe this won't be as formative.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

There are undoubtedly many good things about the EU. But there are also many bad things.

Being an island nation, we are different to the rest of Europe. The English Channel may not be too wide in the greater scheme of things, but it is a massive divider when it comes to our outlook on things.

Re-wind to the late 19th / early 20th century. Yes, Britain was the main colonial power in the World, but there was also a tradition of isolationism. The British didn't want to get involved with Europe; they were more interested in their own affairs.

Although the wars got us involved in Europe, and post-war British governments embraced Europe, that isolationist attitude still exists amongst the general public.

When the European Economic Community started, it was all about trade agreements. But, it has developed into something completely different. The European Union is now all about political agreements.

Also, when it started off, it was a French baby. But now France doesn't have as much of a say. It is now essentially run by Germany.

Personally, I agree with sneakers' belief that the EU won't survive much longer anyway. The events of the past few years have shown just how different the countries are. Germany is the economic powerhouse of the continent, and doesn't take any nonsense. Compare that to most of the Mediterranean countries, where are much poorer, and much more laid back about things.

This vastly different attitude to money became blindingly obvious during the recession of a few years ago. And, I was fully expecting that to spell the end of the EU. But, it managed to come through it.

But, now, we have the immigration crisis. Germany is all in favour of taking in refugees. The rest of the member states are not. But because Germany is running the show, they are dictating to the other members.

Over the past few years, Eastern Europe seemed to be the only place where there was enthusiasm for being in the EU. Basically, they thought that being a member would improve their fortunes. But now, even they are losing enthusiasm, because they are the countries that are being over-run by immigrants trying to get to Germany.

If only the EEC had stuck to being a Free Trade Area, then the current crisis would not have happened. Everything would still be rosy. But it didn’t. The powers that be decided to develop the EEC into something bigger, and it ended up too big for it’s boots.

All we can hope for is that once the EU does collapse, that a new Free Trade Area comes in. And that it sticks to just being a Free Trade Area!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathman]

The British Pound is very low now, maybe I should plan a little trip? Or maybe I should better wait a little longer ... :dev3:

I would plan a vacation trip, too, except that as soon as the U.S. stock markets open today I am going to lose my shirt.

 

[solani]

The EU should and could be so much more than just a Free Trade Area. I believe in the idea. I hope that Brexit will help to change the EU for the better.
But what is Scotland going to do now? Northern Ireland? This could be the beginning of the destruction of an much older union. I read somewhere that obvioulsy some Scots voted for Brexit so that they can vote again to leave the UK ... I have now idea wether this could possibly be true.
And I also think that this decision will be harder for the UK than for the rest of the EU. London still is the financial center of the EU. And somehow I doubt that this is going to stay this way after Brexit is finished, and this is going to take years.

 

[sneakers]

Personally, I agree with sneakers' belief that the EU won't survive much longer anyway. The events of the past few years have shown just how different the countries are. Germany is the economic powerhouse of the continent, and doesn't take any nonsense. Compare that to most of the Mediterranean countries, where are much poorer, and much more laid back about things.

as an old European proverb goes:

Italy makes the shoes
France makes the bread
Germany runs the trains
Britain runs the Government

with now Germany being the sole EU power, Germany historically cannot manage a continental Europe union alone. Britain always had an island mentality since Henry VIII

 

[MalAssada]

I have just seen the news. While I disagreee with the decision, I truly wish them all the best, and that if it proves right to them, that other countries can follow their example. It's time to confess that my interest on the EU is shallow and based on two things: No need for visas, and the euro (which does make it much easier to travel from country to country).

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The EU should and could be so much more than just a Free Trade Area. I believe in the idea. I hope that Brexit will help to change the EU for the better.

I would be more in favour of a Free Trade Area. But, hey, we can have different opinions on some things, and the same on others.

But what is Scotland going to do now? Northern Ireland? This could be the beginning of the destruction of an much older union. I read somewhere that obvioulsy some Scots voted for Brexit so that they can vote again to leave the UK ... I have now idea wether this could possibly be true.

In my first post in this thread, I said that the SNP would call for another independence referendum for Scotland, and that Sinn Fein would call for a border poll in Northern Ireland.

No sooner were the results confirmed, then both happened.

But, I do agree with you that there is a chance that this could lead to the break-up of the UK. And whilst I would love to see the Scots get their independence, I am worried about what would happen us.

I personally would love to see an independent Northern Ireland. But, it would simply not be viable enough to survive as an entity in it's own right.

Sinn Fein want a United Ireland. But, there isn't much desire on either side of the border for that. The South have enough problems of their own without taking on our many big problems as well.

Scotland is the place that we have the most in common with. But, I am not sure if an independent Scotland would be able to take us under their wing (or even want to, considering our problems).

So, we will probably end up just sticking with England and Wales.

And I also think that this decision will be harder for the UK than for the rest of the EU. London still is the financial center of the EU. And somehow I doubt that this is going to stay this way after Brexit is finished, and this is going to take years.

Oh, definitely it will be harder for the UK than it is for the EU.

Some companies will pull out of the UK, while others will lessen their presence. And Frankfurt will take over as the financial centre of the EU.

But, London was a major financial centre before joining the EU, and will still be after leaving. The make up will just change.

We will see what all happens over the next few years.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Jaana]

I never thought EU was a good idea, but felt that Finland had to join. Now I´m keeping thumbs up that the EU will collapse in very near future...