Canadian First Nations hosts want to meet with Russian skaters

[dorispulaski]

What they intended is completely immaterial. In fact, no one has claimed that DomShabs or Linichuk deliberately intended to offend the aborigines, including the aborigines and the First Nations leaders.

What's material is:
1. Are the aborigines offended? (Yes they are)
2. Do they have a right to be offended? (Of course they do. You don't get to dictate what offends them, nor do I.)
3. Is this dance in violation of ISU guidelines for this year's OD? (I think so, but it's the judges, ISU committee, and/or tech controllers who will determine this, not any of us random posters on the internet)
4. Are DomShabs going to apologize to the aborigines, and are they going to meet with the First Nations' hosts of the Vancouver Olympics? That's their choice. I will be interested to see what they decide to do.
5. Are they going to make changes to their costumes or programs? Again, their choice.

 

[oxade21]

NO, they are not. It nowhere in the letter states that they are offended, those words never used. In fact the so called invitation letter explicitly states that they do not see any malice here and they just simply ask to visit them to expose more to the culture as certain elements of the dance are not as authentic as they would like it to be. Of course they have right to say that. But there is no offence on any part except on internet board.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Well,I'm not trying to inflame anyone..I'm just saying we should let a little logic prevail.

Look, we all know that the term 'fan' derives from 'fanatic' ..and there are always those who live up to that origin to an extreme degree. You haven't quoted your sources, and I've no idea what goes on at SFU ( I'm not paying to find out). But in order to defame someone you have to be spreading false stories that can be shown to have harmed the person. However you are entitled to your opinion...you can say that what they're doing strikes you as racist. Has this person approached the legal authorities anywhere and asked that Linichuk and D/S be investigated for hate crimes ? I seriously doubt it..they may have expressed their sentiments in an extreme way, but that happens every day.

I very much doubt that very many people would believe that D/S and their camp are really seirously racist. Arrogant..careless..manipulative..that's another matter , but not such a serious one..certainly not a legal matter.

Then , considering what it costs to sue someone , anyone would be well advised to consider whether the person using the word racist was simply expressing their opinion of the program, or seriously attempting to damage the character of the skaters ,ruin them, etc...not so easy to do.Why would they choose to possibly waste their money that way ? Whoever called the program to the attention of the Aboriginal Council was correct in their assumption that the council would find it offensive..If it was inoffensive, the Aboriginal Coucil would have shrugged it off , or possibly even endorsed it , and the 'whistleblower' would have been left with egg on his/her face.

If you bring action against someone for defamation , then you have to prove that person made false claims intending to harm your reputation ,lose you your job ,or something like that. ( Not just point out that you made arrogant ,careless and/or manipulative choices in your ice dance routine.) There is not likely to be any law suit.

If the judges in Talinn found no breaking of the rules..well, isn't the possibility of suspect judging a large part of the problem here? Their rules are there in black and white, but too often they choose to ignore them , or enforce them inconsistently. We've seen this over and over..

And you can believe that if some couple had played fast and loose with any Northwest native dances or tradition, there certainly would have been a hue and cry around here..and the public would largely applaud them.

 

[oxade21]

I'm not trying to inflame anyone..I'm just saying we should let a little logic prevail.

Look, we all know that the term 'fan' derives from 'fanatic' ..and there are always those who live up to that origin to an extreme degree. You haven't quoted your sources, and I've no idea what goes on at SFU ( I'm not paying to find out). But in order to defame someone you have to be spreading false stories that can be shown to have harmed the person. However you are entitled to your opinion...you can say that what they're doing strikes you as racist. Has this person approached the legal authorities anywhere and asked that Linichuk and D/S be investigated for hate crimes ? I seriously doubt it..they may have expressed their sentiments in an extreme way, but that happens every day.

LOL, if one is so obsessed that screencap skater's blog posts and internet board stories WAY before the program was even officially presented and then inform whatever tribes across the World how racist this team is, one CLEARLY establishes the purpose of such actions. Whether the tribes of whatever takes it at face value is a different story. In any case, I would suggest to all of you to be very careful in choosing your words. This ain't joke.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Gee, I think you have to get over the screencapping thing..people do that all the time for all kinds of reasons...And you're doing a great disservice to native peoples if you think they can't tell for themselves what is offensive to their culture or not. Do you think that they are so uinintelligent or uninformed or so easily led that they would accept some rash claim from half a world away without checking it out for themselves ?

So far, I haven't seen one quote where any native people called D/S racist . They went out of their way to state the opposite and said they were sure the offense was unintentional on the part of the skaters...( so even if you're right about your agent provocateur and their motives , it didn't work )... But you don't quote or link to your sources, so how are we to know that your claims are not in any way skewed ? How are we to we know that you're not trying to smear the posters on SFU ? I don't say you are..I'm saying that we have no way of knowing that. You ask us to believe your scenario at face value..to believe that your fan allegiances don't colour what you say , at all..and that the Aboriginal Council can be told what to think.

Who are you warning to be careful what they say..No-one has said anything beyond expressing their opinion , here. So there couldn't possibly be any fear of legal action. No-one has so much as sworn. What else is there to worry about ?

I don't think anyone here is wishing anything bad for D/S as people. Many, I think , would like to see them be judged fairly , and hold the not irrational opinion that they have been unfairly favoured in the past.

 

[oxade21]

Gee, I think you have to get over the screencapping thing..people do that all the time for all kinds of reasons...And you're doing a great disservice to native peoples if you think they can't tell for themselves what is offensive to their culture or not. Do you think that they are so uinintelligent or uninformed or so easily led that they would accept some rash claim from half a world away without checking it out for themselves ?

So far, I haven't seen one quote where any native people called D/S racist . They went out of their way to state the opposite and said they were sure the offense was unintentional on the part of the skaters... But you don't quote or link to your sources, so how are we to know that your claims are not in any way skewed ? How are we to we know that you're not trying to smear the posters on SFU ? I don't say you are..I'm saying that we have no way of knowing that. You ask us to believe your scenario at face value..to believe that your fan allegiances don't colour what you say , at all..and that the Aboriginal Council can be told what to think.

Who are you warning to be careful what they say..No-one has said anything beyond expressing their opinion , here. So there couldn't possibly be any fear of legal action. No-one has so much as sworn. What else is there to worry about ?

I don't think anyone here is wishing anything bad for D/S as people. Many, I think , would like to see them be judged fairly , and hold the not irrational opinion that they have been unfairly favoured in the past.

You just keep diggin it.

 

[colleen o'neill]

So much for rational discussion.

 

[Big Deal]

Oxade said in an earlier post, how great is this OD, the best in the season.
That is HIS /HER opinion. No problem with that, feel free to think so.

I think the problem is with this OD is not(just) it is offending Aboriginals making joke on them, but it is simply a tasteless, hectic, unsound performance, which facts they tried to hide with an ugly non-authentic music and "costume".
There are different opinions, don't kill each-other.
Let's talk about nicer programs (like Faiella-Scali, Virtue-Moir, Davis-White, Belbin-Agosto , Kokhlova-Novitski, and -maybe- Delobel-Schoenfelder)
There are plenty of nice programs to talk about!

The scandal is that, there are too many "desperate housewives" in the ISU to expect to award a Gold to this team, and they think nothing matters, and there are many things which DOES matter.
If they already decided to give the OGM to a Russian team (like they did so last year at the WorldChampionships), PLEASE give it to Kokhlova-Novitski (smaller scandal will coming out).

 

[Vlad]

First,I'm not Domnina/Shabalin fan(I like Davis/White but this story looks like baby games.I don't think their dance is offensive.Actually I don't like this music,they had much better dances in their career but anyway it's not a thing to talking.
http://worldskating.blogspot.com

 

[oxade21]

Oxade said in an earlier post, how great is this OD, the best in the season.
That is HIS /HER opinion. No problem with that, feel free to think so.

I think the problem is with this OD is not(just) it is offending Aboriginals making joke on them, but it is simply a tasteless, hectic, unsound performance, which facts they tried to hide with an ugly non-authentic music and "costume".
There are different opinions, don't kill each-other.
Let's talk about nicer programs (like Faiella-Scali, Virtue-Moir, Davis-White, Belbin-Agosto , Kokhlova-Novitski, and -maybe- Delobel-Schoenfelder)
There are plenty of nice programs to talk about!

The scandal is that, there are too many "desperate housewives" in the ISU to expect to award a Gold to this team, and they think nothing matters, and there are many things which DOES matter.
If they already decided to give the OGM to a Russian team (like they did so last year at the WorldChampionships), PLEASE give it to Kokhlova-Novitski (smaller scandal will coming out).

Well, it's not like the only desperate housewives in ISU are Russian. This whole "scandal" is the proof of that.
In any case, the above-mentioned housewives have more faith in other disciplines now. According to Russian boards, Dom/Shabs and Linichuk were officially informed by Russian Fed President that there will be no political support for this team in Vancouver. And the reason is not Aborigens but Maxim's poor health.
When it is bad, it's just bad. Even I can admit that. Programs are fantastic but If they do not catch up technically to the rest of the filed, they are done. Still hoping they can kick some ***, Olympic ice is very trippy as history shows. You never know.

 

[Bennett]

It is interesting to hear the conspiracy theory. It sounds as though the best defense is to make yourself a victim and attack back the enemy. But at least Mr. Joseph from the First Nations people is offering extremely fair, gentle, and healthy measures for the couple to act gracefully. I hope that they accept this opportunity to earn international respect, rather than creating an imaginary enemy.

 

[Mathman]

According to Russian boards, Dom/Shabs and Linichuk were officially informed by Russian Fed President that there will be no political support for this team in Vancouver.

What exactly does this "political support" consist of?

Is it expected by posters on the Russian boards that the judges at the Olympics will score Domnina and Shabalin lower because of lack of political support from Mr. Piseev?

 

[skatingbc]

In Sociology, we discussed many different aboriginal tribes and their cultural norms, values and traditions. In many of these tribes, dance was a large part of their society. In these tribes, each family had separate dances, songs and stories that they essentially owned. If other members of the tribe wanted to perform a dance for instance, they had to ask permission to do so. I think one reason that so many people don't understand the issue is because they simply don't understand aboriginal culture. It is hugely different than our Western/European culture.

The thing that gets me the most about this whole thing is how they have repeatedly stated that the only research they did was on the internet. Really? I find it truly hard to believe that the Russian Fed wouldn't shell out the cash for them to get a specialist in to help them.Maybe if they did though, there wouldn't be any money left over to bribe the judges with.

 

[oxade21]

What exactly does this "political support" consist of?

Is it expected by posters on the Russian boards that the judges at the Olympics will score Domnina and Shabalin lower because of lack of political support from Mr. Piseev?

It consists of a lot of things and that includes some lobbying with judges. And before you start spitting on Russians, every federation does that behind the curtain work.

 

[oxade21]

I don't doubt for a second that they do - I don't think the entire skating community is completely free of scruples because they changed to a "new, improved" scoring system. To think things suddenly became 100% on the up and up would be completely naive. As long as people like Piseev, Cinquanta and Gailhaguet are in the mix I hardly expect a ton of true ethics in the sport. :sheesh:

Those people always will be there. That's why I am convinced that figure skating is not sport.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Of course figure skating is sport .There have been many sports relying on judges that have either weathered controversy by cleaning up their act, or seen the popularity of their sport decline dramatically over time.

In figure skating, a start has been made , but there's still room and need for adjustment. We'll never get there by either pretending there was no problem to begin with ,or that everything is now fixed. No-one likes politics at the National level any better than at the International level. It's perhaps more noticeable at the international level because the whole world is watching. And there's no denying that some of the same names are implicated in controversy over and over again.

But these particular people will not always be there and there is much that can be done to insure their successors do not operate in the same way, or won't have the same ability to do so , even if they're so inclined.

 

[oxade21]

Any "sport' that relies on opinion of group of people is NOT sport.

 

[dorispulaski]

They ski jumping and snow boarding and mogul skiing are all not sports. Football has refs, as does hockey, and they decide or let go infractions. Umpires have judgment calls about balls & strikes, safe and fair. So by your definition, none of the above are sports?

 

[colleen o'neill]

So you would include gymnastics , boxing , diving, snowboard and ski aerials, ski jumping , equestrian ,etc.etc.etc. as non-sports ? Are only team sports and those events that are timed or measured, sport , in your view.?

 

[dorispulaski]

BTW, I see that O'Brien and Merriman from Australia are at 4CC's, and will be skating their aborigine OD that the aborigine elders helped them with. I hope there will be youtube available soon!