Canadian First Nations hosts want to meet with Russian skaters

[sk8rdad]

Any "sport' that relies on opinion of group of people is NOT sport.

This is the sort of argument I would expect from a grade school student. Virtually every sport has judges, even time based sports (who do you think makes the false start calls in track) while their involvment may be less obvious many a race has been affected by their judgement calls.

The reason for having a group of judges in the more subjective sports is to minimize the effects of favoritism and for the most part this works fairly well. The biggest difference in figure skating is all us armchair judges out there actually have online forums where we can endlessly debate this GOE score or that UR call or thousands of other bits of minutia.

 

[oxade21]

So you would include gymnastics , boxing , diving, snowboard and ski aerials, ski jumping , equestrian ,etc.etc.etc. as non-sports ? Are only team sports and those events that are timed or measured, sport , in your view.?

No, those are sports as judges there are merely recorder keepers of what's happening rather than providers of opinion. They do not judge music selection and presentations and so on. That's American Idol.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Ah....but many of those judges certainly express opinion of form etc. They're not merely record keepers.

So you think there should be no CD, OD..just FS and anything goes ? That would make it very difficult to judge indeed. The rules re: music are there for very good reasons and , by and large , they don't hinder the competitors. Rather , they help to show that the competitors understand the music, can keep a set rhythm , can adopt given styles of dance and aren't just one trick ponies...they have almost unlimited freedom in choice of music for the FD, which represents the largest portion of the marks. I think that's enough.

More than half the mark already suits your criteria, so do you think that ice dance is 50 or 60% a sport , or doesn't the free part count ?
****
Doris , or anyone...I'm a little confused as to O'Brien and Merriman. Their aboriginal themed OD from 2008 World's ( I think ) is on Youtube, now.Their music certainly sounds correct. Have they recycled/ reworked that dance for this season? I'll be interested to see...

 

[dorispulaski]

They are reported to be doing a reworked version of the dance this year as well...and they are 2 years older and better, so I'm looking forward to seeing them again.

Back 2 years ago it looked to me like O'Brien is a kangaroo and Merriman is hunting her (a known aboriginal dance scenario).

 

[Mathman]

Those people always will be there. That's why I am convinced that figure skating is not sport.

OK, this is something I did not expect from such an enthusiatic follower of the sport, and it has me puzzled.

If you feel that figure skating is not a sport, why do you care so passionately who wins and who loses? If medals are decided primarily by the politicking of federation chiefs, what are we cheering and booing about? If Domnina and Shabalin win the gold medal over Davis and White, are we expected to swell with national pride over the fact that Piseev proved an abler politician than his counterparts in other countries?

 

[skatingbc]

No, those are sports as judges there are merely recorder keepers of what's happening rather than providers of opinion. They do not judge music selection and presentations and so on. That's American Idol.

I am a volleyball referee and I am absolutely NOT a record keeper, and am absolutely a provider of an opinion. I determine which team gets every single point. If I wanted to, I could be incredibly biased towards one team and call their touches very tightly or I could be more lax. Just try and tell me volleyball isn't a sport. Please.

 

[oxade21]

OK, this is something I did not expect from such an enthusiatic follower of the sport, and it has me puzzled.

If you feel that figure skating is not a sport, why do you care so passionately who wins and who loses? If medals are decided primarily by the politicking of federation chiefs, what are we cheering and booing about? If Domnina and Shabalin win the gold medal over Davis and White, are we expected to swell with national pride over the fact that Piseev proved an abler politician than his counterarts in other countries?

Well, if Domnina/Shabalin win over anyone, they will win because they are better than anyone else according to the set of people who make that decision. Now how that decision is made is different question. I was hoping that with the introduction of COP the high level of opinion and subjectivity in this sport would have been reduced. Unfortunately that does not look possible. And I do not agree with the argument that it's only because of few bad apples. My problem is not Piseev etc., my problem is that no matter who judges, that person can not judge an artistic element without subjectivity. Hence it can easily be corrupted and no measures can prevent that.
I think figure skating is a mixed discipline of primarily artistic performance with certain sport elements. And it should be treated in that way. I am sure the discipline will only benefit if it's excluded from Olympic program. It will be rocky times but eventually it will find itself and its audience.

I am a volleyball referee and I am absolutely NOT a record keeper, and am absolutely a provider of an opinion. I determine which team gets every single point. If I wanted to, I could be incredibly biased towards one team and call their touches very tightly or I could be more lax. Just try and tell me volleyball isn't a sport. Please.

Well, I am also basketball referee and I can tell you that referees bias or mistake does not influence the outcome as much as it does in this discipline. In volleyball you do not determine winner by the color of their outfits or the makeup style of the winner. As you said you measure performance nothing else. Here we introduced technical panels that supposed to do that but judges are still there and they will always be.

 

[skatingbc]

Well, I am also basketball referee and I can tell you that referees bias or mistake does not influence the outcome as much as it does in this discipline. In volleyball you do not determine winner by the color of their outfits or the makeup style of the winner. As you said you measure performance nothing else. Here we introduced technical panels that supposed to do that but judges are still there and they will always be.

I could if I wanted to. I could be super tight on one team and pretty much let the other team do whatever. I would never do that, but it could be done.

ANY sport a time or another has scandals with officiating or judging. Has anyone ever watched a hockey, football, or soccer game and think "What an atrocious call!"? To me, that's the same thing as screaming "wuzrobbed".

 

[oxade21]

I could if I wanted to. I could be super tight on one team and pretty much let the other team do whatever. I would never do that, but it could be done.

ANY sport a time or another has scandals with officiating or judging. Has anyone ever watched a hockey, football, or soccer game and think "What an atrocious call!"? To me, that's the same thing as screaming "wuzrobbed".

I agree corruption can be everywhere. But not really, the call is one thing, besides these days you can always revise it after reply. It's not like judges are making the winner decision based on what team they personally preferred over the other one, like here.

 

[skatingbc]

I agree corruption can be everywhere. But not really, the call is one thing, besides these days you can always revise it after reply. It's not like judges are making the winner decision based on what team they personally preferred over the other one, like here.

I actually disagree. I don't think corruption everywhere. I think there are many people who see corruption everywhere. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd rather be naive than think that people are out to get me every step of the way.

 

[oxade21]

I actually disagree. I don't think corruption everywhere. I think there are many people who see corruption everywhere. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd rather be naive than think that people are out to get me every step of the way.

No, that's just called paranoia. What I am talking about is the possibility of something to be misused given an opportunity. And not realizing that such possibility always exist IS naive.

 

[skatingbc]

No, that's just called paranoia. What I am talking about is the possibility of something to be misused given an opportunity. And not realizing that such possibility always exist IS naive.

I recognize that corruption exists. I just think it's pointless to argue about corruption in a sport. Many people see corruption in everything (call it paranoid, fine), and I think that is destructive behaviour.

I'm pretty sure there is the possibility for anything to be misused by someone given the opportunity. What's the point in worrying?

 

[oxade21]

I recognize that corruption exists. I just think it's pointless to argue about corruption in a sport. Many people see corruption in everything (call it paranoid, fine), and I think that is destructive behaviour.

I'm pretty sure there is the possibility for anything to be misused by someone given the opportunity. What's the point in worrying?

Well, just go through pages and pages of this board for the answer. Also you can revisit 2002 to understand the consequences.

 

[skatingbc]

Well, just go through pages and pages of this board for the answer. Also you can revisit 2002 to understand the consequences.

We are all aware what happened in 2002. Honestly though, what is the impact on your life if a team wins that you think didn't deserve to win, and they won because of "politicking"? Seriously. I make jokes about politicks, sure. Obviously we all have our favourites and we want them to win. No one will ever be 100% satisfied and there will ALWAYS be someone crying "wuzrobbed" no matter how objective the sport is.

 

[oxade21]

We are all aware what happened in 2002. Honestly though, what is the impact on your life if a team wins that you think didn't deserve to win, and they won because of "politicking"? Seriously. I make jokes about politicks, sure. Obviously we all have our favourites and we want them to win. No one will ever be 100% satisfied and there will ALWAYS be someone crying "wuzrobbed" no matter how objective the sport is.

Let's see till this discipline gets kicked out by IOC.

 

[skatingbc]

Let's see till this discipline gets kicked out by IOC.

That would be a sad day, I'm not denying that.

 

[Medusa]

That would be a sad day, I'm not denying that.

Why would it be a sad day? It's a stupid discipline anyway. Once in a while the judges "choose" someone worthy of medals and high marks - like Davis / White this season, but most of the time it's just brainless politicking.

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually, as a sport, I think COP has done the best job with dance of the 4 disciplines. At this point dance judging is no worse than pairs judging. At least one can now understand the scoring and the components of the tech score and make reliable places that come out in line with what the judges are thinking.

PCS scores are harder to judge, particularly because speed and depth of edge are so integral to those components and both are harder to see from TV and harder yet from internet streaming. And judging timing requires that the feed be properly synched between audio and video, which is usually not the case with internet feeds. However, they are mostly understandable now, although you have to read the rulebook to get close to the judging.

The problem with DomShabs OD is not with IJS or corruption. The problem with the OD is bad rule construction and description of the requirements for this year's OD.

 

[sk8rdad]

Why would it be a sad day? It's a stupid discipline anyway. Once in a while the judges "choose" someone worthy of medals and high marks - like Davis / White this season, but most of the time it's just brainless politicking.

If you actually believe what you stated above why are you wasting time posting here. You obviously are not a fan of the sport and have way too much time on your hands. Get a life! :scowl:

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Why would it be a sad day? It's a stupid discipline anyway. Once in a while the judges "choose" someone worthy of medals and high marks - like Davis / White this season, but most of the time it's just brainless politicking.

Because, at it's best, it's the best discipline in figure skating.