Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[christinaskater]

Kwan is the queen of the 6.0 system and Kim is the queen of the COP!

 

[Mathman]

I also think Michelle wouldn't have had the longevity under COP that she did under 6.0,

Why do you think this?

Michelle did not have a very flexible back. When the CoP first came out, with it's requirements about changes of positions on spins, her first strategy was to do lower levels and try to make up the differentce in GOE.

That didn't work. So she tried to up the ante by spinning in weird positions. She ended up straining her back and had to drop out for a time to rest it.

 

[Layfan]

Michelle did not have a very flexible back. When the CoP first came out, with it's requirements about changes of positions on spins, her first strategy was to do lower levels and try to make up the differentce in GOE.

That didn't work. So she tried to up the ante by spinning in weird positions. She ended up straining her back and had to drop out for a time to rest it.

Yeah, spins were not her forte but she made it work in her time. I would have really hated to see her ruin her gorgeous skating by forcing herself into ugly positions. It is one of the things I dislike the about COP. Especially because it doesn't seem to matter whether a skater can do a spin or spiral position properly. They get the points just by sort of doing it and holding it long enough. At least Michelle would have benefited from the change in the spiral rules this season. Michelle had one of the best arabesque and charlotte spirals in the world and it was sad to see her have to shorten her trademark spiral at the end of her career to fit the silly COP requirements on spirals.

It's funny the way back flexibility works because I guess Yuna and Mao have a more bendy back than Michelle - but Michelle's back position in her camel spin so much nicer than theirs, IMO. Her back is straight and completes a gorgeous line down to her toes... Yuna and even Mao are sideways during their camel spin. Mirai also has a nice back position her camel but her arms are not as nicely placed as Michelle or Sasha's were... I guess it's a good thing I'm not a COP judge.

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's why the scoring for spins needs to be revamped. Gaining levels should be worth less points and +GOE should be worth more. It's HARDER to do a fast, centered sit spin with a completely straight back and free leg than it is to an ungainly cannonball position held for 8 revolutions with lackluster speed. And yet, the latter scores more points under the current system and makes the program look worse too.

 

[Layfan]

^ :yes:

 

[gkelly]

Michelle did not have a very flexible back. When the CoP first came out, with it's requirements about changes of positions on spins, her first strategy was to do lower levels and try to make up the differentce in GOE.

That didn't work. So she tried to up the ante by spinning in weird positions. She ended up straining her back and had to drop out for a time to rest it.

This is why questions like this are impossible to answer -- there are too many variables involved.

1) Are we talking about the IJS rules as they exist in 2011 or as they existed in 2005? E.g., the 8-revolution in position feature didn't exist in 2005, and that's a nice contortion-free feature for less flexible skaters to use to gain levels.

On the other hand, spirals are no longer elements in short programs and are less important in long programs. So a skater who was good at spirals, like Kwan in her prime, would get less benefit from that skill in 2011 rules.

2) When during the skater's career would the IJS rules hypothetically have been in place?

As we see, 2005 rules were not good for 24/25-year-old Kwan's body, when she was already past her prime or at the tail end of it.

How would things have been different if the new scoring system had been introduced in 1990-91, along with the elimination of school figures, when Kwan was a 10-year-old novice? If she had known while her body was still growing that flexibility would be rewarded, would she have started working on it at an age when gradual flexibility training was more likely to produce significant results over a period of years? Would she have done it gradually and carefully and developed just enough flexibility skills and other skills worthy of IJS spin features to earn higher levels, or would she have tried too hard, as many young kids do, and injured herself before even getting to senior level, same as other skaters have injured themselves trying too many difficult jumps or jump combinations too quickly?

Or what if the new rules had been introduced on a test basis starting in 1998-99 and phased in gradually over the period when Kwan was in her late teens/early 20s, to finally replace the old system completely in 2002-03. Could Kwan during her prime have shown the same learning curve as her slightly older and slightly younger competitors during that period (e.g., Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Suguri, Gusmeroli, etc.) and added new skills at the same rate that they did? Would the skills shown by all these competitors including Kwan have affected the various tweaks made to the system each year?

I'm sure that if the new system and Kwan's career had been developing at the same time, they would have adapted better to each other than we can predict from looking at the effects of a brand new system on a champion already nearing the end of her career.

That's why the scoring for spins needs to be revamped. Gaining levels should be worth less points and +GOE should be worth more. It's HARDER to do a fast, centered sit spin with a completely straight back and free leg than it is to an ungainly cannonball position held for 8 revolutions with lackluster speed. And yet, the latter scores more points under the current system and makes the program look worse too.

I agree completely that each +GOE should be worth more than each additional level.

But I think that the 8 revolutions feature is a great feature.

First of all, 8 revolutions in position have been required for short program laybacks and flying spins since 1994-95. So every skater who could do a legal short program spin was already capable of earning that feature (unless they needed to change variations during the spin even in the old system to be able to achieve 8 revolutions). For flying sitspins, a decent fly and the minimum rotations required for the short program already guarantee level 2 with no difficult positions or edge changes. Kwan has done many flying sitspins worthy of level 2 and +GOE under 6.0 expectations. If the hands-clasped-behind-back layback position counts as a difficult variation, she's also done some level 2 laybacks.

If the skater can do it in the short program, she's also capable of doing it in the long program. Eight revolutions doesn't take much more time than six, the minimum officially expected in long programs since the mid-90s. And now that the number of long program spins was reduced to three, it's certainly more efficient to hold the non-combo spins an extra two revolutions than to add a whole new position, much less than to add a whole extra spin.

Second, if the skater can do a fast centered spin with a strong basic position, she can more easily hold it for 8 revolutions than if the spin is slow, uncentered, or ungainly. Skaters with fast, centered spins will earn the 8 revolutions feature easily without struggle and will make it look good. Skaters who spin slowly and can't center more often fail to earn that feature, even when they try, but they will annoy you with their less attractive spins every time they try and fail.

However, speed and centering don't always go together. Sometimes you have careful, nicely positioned and nicely centered spins that are fairly slow and therefore fall short of the 8 revolutions. Other times you have faster spins that are not well centered and in a worst case lose control and don't make it to 8 revs or in a best case get the 8 revs done quickly but not beautifully.

 

[Blades of Passion]

8 revolutions in a single position needs to be KILLED in almost all cases. Especially for combination spins. People are barely even changing positions anymore in their "combination" spins. It's just some variation of Camel spin, down into a "difficult" Sit spin held for 8 revolutions, change foot into a "difficult" Upright held for 8 revolutions.

I also dislike this feature because it often gives skaters incentive to hold out their positions longer than the music dictates. If a spin position is held for a particularly impressive amount of time (ie - without losing too much speed or centering or positioning), it should be accounted for in the GOE. It should not be a level feature.

The one case where I think this feature should remain is for spins in a single position without a change of foot. Aside from Laybacks, we never see single position spins anymore unless it's a flying spin or change-of-foot spin. Doing a scratch spin on its own or a back camel on its own can be a worthwhile piece of choreography within a program. If it was easier to gain levels in those types of spins, then perhaps skaters would attempt them again. It's currently useless to put those spins in a program because you're simply losing points, since a change-of-foot or flying spin is worth more and isn't that hard to get the maximum level on (plus the problem of the base vales of spins being more important than +GOE).

In a related case, for spins in one position with a change-of-foot, I think 8 revolutions total on each foot should count as a feature. That way the skater is able to do variations within the spin rather than just holding the same position the whole time (which is almost never the best option choreographically).

For combination spins, here are other features that should count (the 2nd and 3rd are only for change-of-foot combination spins):

*3 difficult variations (only 2 count right now).

*Changing foot twice, with at least 2 positions before and after each change of foot (which means a total of at least 6 positions in the spin).

*Doing a change-of-direction should count twice if the there is a transition into a different position (other than upright) each time. I believe Michelle Kwan's change-of-foot combination spin from her 1998 LP deserves to be called as Level 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI45Qm3YoDw&t=2m20s ---> Change direction into Camel, then Change direction into Sit, then the difficult variation in the Upright. She takes too many steps between the positions for either of them to currently count (they would be scored as separate spins), but that rule should also be changed. Gorgeous combination spin.

 

[Mathman]

If the hands-clasped-behind-back layback position counts as a difficult variation, she's also done some level 2 laybacks.

For Michelle, I think the "heart" position was easier. What was hard for her was to "lay back" while maintaining the free leg in attitude.

The one case where I think this feature should remain is for spins in a single position without a change of foot. Aside from Laybacks, we never see single position spins anymore unless it's a flying spin or change-of-foot spin. Doing a scratch spin on its own or a back camel on its own can be a worthwhile piece of choreography within a program.

That is what I miss most about 6.0-style programs. In the olden days you could do a sit spin that was a sit spin. You could end your program with a plain scratch spin that brought the audience to its feet.

To me, if your sit spin doesn't look like this, why are you out there in the first place?

That's what was so satisfying about Michelle's programs in the latter part of her career (2003 Worlds Aranjuez and 2004 Nationals Tosca). It was like a clinic. This is how you do a triple flip, this is how you do a sit spin, this is how you do a split jump, this is how you do a spiral. Any questions? I didn't think so.

 

[pangtongfan]

All time LADIES RANKING with the BEST SKATE...Under any judging system.

1. Yuna Kim
2. Mao Asada
3. Kristi Yamaguchi
4. Tara Lipinski
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Irina Slutskaya
7. Midori Ito

Remember...7th ranked Midori of her best can beat Yuna sometimes...ICE IS SLIPPERY !

Interesting list. You are entitled your opinion but I dont really agree with this one.

Kwan's best would beat Tara's best for sure IMO. Well we never really saw Tara's best perhaps since she retired at 15, but the Olympic free skate was clearly her best ever and it while it beat a clean and excellent skate by Kwan that was not even close to Kwan's best all time skate.

Ito last? You have to be kidding me on that. And I suspect Ito's best would beat Yamaguchi's amateur best atleast, let alone be that much behind. At Trophee Lalique Yamaguchi skated a bit better than the Olympics with a fall on the triple salchow her only error and lost decisively to Ito (7 judges to 2) who popped a couple jumps but landed a huge triple axel. And I would be shocked if Ito at her best ever ended up below Tara at her best. Both are more technical skaters than artistic, and Ito's monstrous jumps would blow Tara's smallish jumps away, and Tara isnt really artistically better than Ito either I dont feel anyway. And if Ito at her best was ever placed below Slutskaya at her best that would be disgusting IMO, although Irina was so overrated and such a judges pet it certainly is possible.

I also dont think Asada would be that close to Kim in the ranking list with both at their all time best. Asada as great as she is never totally fulfilled her potential as a skater, atleast not yet. Had she not had those 2 mistakes Vancouver would have been her best ever performance and she still would have been crushed in the overall total by 10 points or more (she lost by 25 as it was).

 

[bibi24]

It is unfair to compare skaters from different era... they would have trained differently given the circumstances.

 

[Poodlepal]

In terms of who is a better skater--probably YuNa. She does harder triple triples, and seems to skate faster. Many skaters of Michelle's era were doing t/t's (and not just the two toe loops), so if she was able to do them, she would have. Did she ever land a triple/triple after her broken toe of 1998?

However, Michelle was a better competitor in general. I remember at least 2 or 3 worlds where YuNa was expected to win and blew it. (True, she came through at the Olympics, where Michelle never did. But in general, Michelle seems mentally tougher.) Had they skated against each other in the same era (assuming similar skills because of that), I bet Michelle would somehow scrape out a win more often than not.

I agree with Ggranny. Michelle did need faster music and while I don't know what led to her fight with FC, I don't think it helped her going to the '02 Oly's with her non-skating father as her coach. It looked flaky, and it doesn't pay to look flaky in a subjective sport where you supposedly get "reputation" points.

 

[miki88]

Had she not had those 2 mistakes Vancouver would have been her best ever performance and she still would have been crushed in the overall total by 10 points or more (she lost by 25 as it was).

IMO. That was not Mao's best performance ever. It wasn't her most difficult layout, which was back in 2008. Neither was it performed by a Mao in her best condition as the general consensus was that her form was much better pre-TAT.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think the only Worlds Yu Na "blew" was 2010. 2007 and 2008 she lost because of injury. Very unlucky.

 

[pangtongfan]

IMO. That was not Mao's best performance ever. It wasn't her most difficult layout, which was back in 2008. Neither was it performed by a Mao in her best condition as the general consensus was that her form was much better pre-TAT.

In any case Mao has never done a pair of performances that would have beaten Kim in Vancouver or even come that close. She has not yet fulfilled her full potential as a skater at the senior level really despite her successes.

 

[cooper]

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim?

Yes, and I'm a Yuna fan.

 

[miki88]

In any case Mao has never done a pair of performances that would have beaten Kim in Vancouver or even come that close. She has not yet fulfilled her full potential as a skater at the senior level really despite her successes.

But that's not what I was trying to point out.

Anyways, I dislike these threads just pit skaters from different eras and systems. I will just say from personal preferences that Kim may beat Michelle technically (but who really says that if MK wouldn't learn those 3-3's if she was required to by the system?) but on the second mark or PCS (if it were really judged that way) then MK wins. The soulfulness and emotional performances of Michelle Kwan are something rarely seen nowadays. But then what do I know? I do remember the judges marking her close to Irina because they were more impressed by the latter's jumps.

 

[Mathman]

Did (Michelle) ever land a triple/triple after her broken toe of 1998?

Yes, indeed! 1999 U.S. Nationals, 1999 Skate America, 2000 Worlds, 2001 Grand Prix Final, 2001 Worlds qualifying round, 2001 Worlds LP, and 2002 Worlds qualifying round.

 

[PROKOFIEV]

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim?

No Way!! There was something special about Michelle. She had such a strong charisma and presence on the ice and she always put everything into her program. It is really hard to explain unless you have seen her skate in the cometition in person.
She had a "IT" factor which no one else had and I do not see it in Yuna. Yuna to me is the best 3-3 jumper in the history and that is all abou it. And that is not enough to beat Michelle!!

 

[pangtongfan]

Ability to do great 3-3s like Yu Na would not be enough to beat Michelle for a skater of Yu Na's caliber?

Irina Slutskaya regularly beat Michelle Kwan when both were in their primes (Irina's prime was 2000-2006 minus the year she was ill, and Michelle's from 1996-2003). From 2000-2002 I believe Irina won 8 of the 10 meetings, outside some silly cheesefests I am probably forgetting so maybe after those it would be 10 of 14 or something. And in World and Olympics they split 2-2 those years but Michelle had to skate lights out and Irina make mistakes for those 2 victories. And this wasnt even based on real ability to consistenly do 3-3s but mostly hype about occasional 3-3s she hardly ever did successfully creating that aura.

Yu Na Kim is a much better jumper than Irina, a way better 3-3 jumper, and is far more artistic. So if Irina essentialy dominated Michelle during the period both were in their primes just based on mostly a false aura about her overrated 3-3 ability, just imagine Yu Na Kim who actually does stunning and beautiful 3-3 combinations and everything else on a regular basis.

And one thing nobody is even mentioning, atleast if you are considering a COP competition is the huge GOE Yu Na regularly gets on her jumps which is far more than any women today. People here seem to love Miki Ando and gush about the supposed GOE she gets and deserves on her jumps, yet Yu Na Kim destroyed Ando on jump GOE over the years. Kwan would not even come close to matching the GOE Yu Na Kim gets on her jumps, they are definitely not the same quality. So even if Kwan by some miracle mastered all the same 3-3 combinations as Kim (not a chance IMO) she would still be many points behind in jumps if Kim landed all of her successfully.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If Kwan had trained under CoP from the start, she probably could have done a 3Flip-3Toe. Her LP layout would be something like:

3Loop
3Flip-3Toe
3Lutz-2Toe-2Loop
-------
3Flip
2Axel-2Axel
3Sal
3Lutz

Yu-Na has only done a clean program with a 3Loop once as a Senior. She would get higher GOE for her 3-3 combination, her 2Axel-3Toe in comparison to Michelle's second 3Flip, and perhaps the second solo jump, but that's about it. Michelle would score higher for the Spiral Sequence, Step Sequence, and PCS.