Daniel Grassl back in Italy

[CrazyKittenLady]

This is so weird. I get how he could miss one test because he forgot to update his location, although this shouldn't really happen to an experienced professional athlete. But wouldn't he or someone on his team get notified somehow after the first missed test? How did he even manage to miss two more?

 

[Amei]

This is so weird. I get how he could miss one test because he forgot to update his location, although this shouldn't really happen to an experienced professional athlete. But wouldn't he or someone on his team get notified somehow after the first missed test? How did he even manage to miss two more?

I'm not sure what the notification process is. While I would think it would be uncommon for someone to miss multiple tests in a small sport like figure skating we have another recent example of Maria Sotskova missing multiple tests

 

[JimR]

But how? There are thousands of test conducted by RUSADA this year without problems, so it clearly not RUSADA fault.

I have already been dinged by 2 points for my comments and don't want to be banned so will tread carefully.

I will say that I didn't try to say anything provocative so I apologise unreservedly. It was not my intention. These are sensitive issues so understand if I was dinged. I do sometimes say too much.

I will say though, given Grassl's coach is Eteri Tutberitze, I would have thought there would have been heighted awareness at WADA, but it seems like I'm wrong. It's not like it's a random test. I can't believe they wouldn't be alerted to an irregularity at the Eteri camp.

 

[icewhite]

Athletes don't just miss 3 such tests because they forget or are negligent. Usually athletes are extremely careful with supplements and their whereabouts because they know the consequences. I do not know about figure skaters in that regard, but usually they get informed about the regulations and rules very well, from an early age on. For us it might be an afterthought, but for an athlete on that level it's extremely unlikely. And if they can't encounter you you will be informed.
The line above me says no speculation, but as I have said in other threads I watch a lot of sports and there are some athletes, although not quite on the same level, I know personally, and... well, we need to wait for his statement and explanation, but it's just not something that just happens.

 

[JimR]

But how? There are thousands of test conducted by RUSADA this year without problems, so it clearly not RUSADA fault.

I'm not sure how it works but I suppose there are other skaters like Gubanova who represent other nations that train in Russia but don't have problems. So yes you are correct.

 

[Caliban]

Not long ago, at 28th of July, Alexandra Agiurgiuculese (top Italian gymnast) was suspended for missing doping test (she suspended for 1 year and it seems she will miss Olympic becouse of that). So if Grassl will be suspended it will be second notable athlete in Italia suspended for such mistake .

 

[JimR]

Yeah, I think he's in big trouble.

 

[4everchan]

This is not fun to read today. However, as mentioned, athletes, especially of that caliber, are well aware of their responsibilities. It happens quite frequently that athletes fail to inform about their whereabouts. Unfortunately for most cases, it almost automatically ends up in a suspension. However, if I feel for the athletes who made such mistakes, without the whereabout rules, there is no way to apply anti-doping code to all athletes. So it's a necessity.

 

[Amei]

This is not fun to read today. However, as mentioned, athletes, especially of that caliber, are well aware of their responsibilities. It happens quite frequently that athletes fail to inform about their whereabouts. Unfortunately for most cases, it almost automatically ends up in a suspension. However, if I feel for the athletes who made such mistakes, without the whereabout rules, there is no way to apply anti-doping code to all athletes. So it's a necessity.

Well I'm going to point out here, do we know this is the case? I regularly hear US athletes talk about it being drilled into their heads about keeping their location up to date for doping controls or calling in a hot line about anything they take to make sure is allowed, but has that been drilled into other athletes, like the Italians? Per what Caliban said this is the second prominent Italian athlete in a couple months that's been popped for this. Maybe Italy needs to do some refresher talks with their athletes

 

[4everchan]

Well I'm going to point out here, do we know this is the case? I regularly hear US athletes talk about it being drilled into their heads about keeping their location up to date for doping controls or calling in a hormone about anything they take to make sure is allowed, but has that been drilled into other athletes, like the Italians? Per what Caliban said this is the second prominent Italian athlete in a couple months that's been popped for this. Maybe Italy needs to do some refresher talks with their athletes

And yet, famous American athletes also failed to provide their wherabouts : google can be your friend here. It's wide-spread. It happens in all nations. I think it's best to wait for Daniel's explanation. Anything anyone may say at this point is speculative.

 

[Caliban]

but has that been drilled into other athletes, like the Italians? Per what Caliban said this is the second prominent Italian athlete in a couple months that's been popped for this. Maybe Italy needs to do some refresher talks with their athletes

That was Alexandra explanation, so it seems that they know the rules, but simply forgot them sometimes

Today I received the news of my 12-month disqualification by the National Anti-Doping Court as a result of an inspection that I inadvertently missed. I have just returned from Japan after a long and tedious trip — I still haven't adjusted to the new time zone and haven't notified those I should have that I was in Portugal for the tournament, and not at home in Milan.

 

[icewhite]

And yet, famous American athletes also failed to provide their wherabouts : google can be your friend here. It's wide-spread. It happens in all nations. I think it's best to wait for Daniel's explanation. Anything anyone may say at this point is speculative.

You are very forgiving there... sure it happens but I usually don't find the explanations very convincing. It also happens more in certain sports or countries (that's a general remark, not referring to Grassl's case) and it's a strong hint that something's wrong, often with the federation of that sport in that country.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Well I'm going to point out here, do we know this is the case? I regularly hear US athletes talk about it being drilled into their heads about keeping their location up to date for doping controls or calling in a hot line about anything they take to make sure is allowed, but has that been drilled into other athletes, like the Italians? Per what Caliban said this is the second prominent Italian athlete in a couple months that's been popped for this. Maybe Italy needs to do some refresher talks with their athletes

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

The Italian authorities just don't seem to care about helping their skaters to avoid falling foul of doping rules on technicalities.

And I know that whenever things like this happen, some people will say "well, it's the athlete's responsibility to know everything, and to let everybody know everything". To which I always think the same thing in reply. So, I will say it out loud this time:

"And how many athletes do you think actually do all their won paperwork?! I would bet that the vast majority leave it to other people to do (management, parents, coaches), because they are too busy actually training!"

Unfortunately, the doping people never seem to consider that this happens. To them, it is always the athlete's fault.

Somebody clearly dropped the ball. But, it is not necessarily Daniel himself.

---

It always winds me up that when testers arrive unannounced and the athlete is not there, it is treated as a violation. I know that what I am about to say is not what happened in this case, but do they not realise that athletes go on holidays, go to visit friends and relatives, go on daytrips / weekends away, or even just go shopping?! Athletes are not at home absolutely all of the time! But, the doping people seem to expect them to be.

---

I see the other post I was planning to quote has now disappeared due to something else said in it, so I will just write the point within it that I want to pick up on:

"WADA will probably demand a 4 year suspension, so end of his career".​

A 4 year ban does not necessarily mean Daniel's career is over. Especially since he is only 21. If he is given a 4 year ban, he'll be 24 or 25 when it is over (depending on whether it is backdated to when he fell foul of the rules). And whilst that is old in Ladies Singles skating, it is not old in Men's Singles skating.

Look at motorbike rider Andrea Iannone. He was given a 4 year ban when he was 30, and everybody was saying his career was over. His ban ends in a few months time, and he has already been signed for next year, to ride the bike that is currently dominating the World Superbike Championship (although he will be riding for an independent team, his contract is directly with the manufacturer).

Four years on the sidelines hasn't done Iannone's career any harm. In fact, he's in a better position now than he was in before he got the ban! (He was on an uncompetitive bike back then).

So, although it may look it now, it is not necessarily all over for Daniel.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[icewhite]

Okay, I'm very confused now.
I don't speak Italian, but if my translator is correct, Grassl says he doesn't know anything about it?

https://www.agi.it/sport/news/2023-09-06/grassl-pattinatore-salta-tre-controlli-anti-doping-22918576/

Or is he only saying he doesn't know anything about an acute disqualification (which nobody said has happened yet). But he would have to be informed?

???

 

[icewhite]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

The Italian authorities just don't seem to care about helping their skaters to avoid falling foul of doping rules on technicalities.

And I know that whenever things like this happen, some people will say "well, it's the athlete's responsiibility to let everybody know everything". To which I always think the same thing in reply. So, I will say it out loud this time:

"And how many athletes do you think actually do all their won paperwork?! I would bet that the vast majority leave it to other people to do (management, parents, coaches), because they are too busy actually training!"

Unfortunately, the doping people never seem to consider that this happens. To them, it is always the athlete's fault.

Somebody clearly dropped the ball. But, it is not necessarily Daniel himself.

---

It always winds me up that when testers arrive unannounced and the athlete is not there, it is treated as a violation. I know that what I am about to say is not what happened in this case, but do they not realise that athletes go on holidays, go to visit friends and relatives, go on daytrips / weekends away, or even just go shopping. They are not at home absolutely all of the time! But, the doping people seem to expect them to be.

---

I see the other post I was planning to quote has now disappeared due to something else said in it, so I will just write the point within it that I want to pick up on:

"WADA will probably demand a 4 year suspension, so end of his career".​

A 4 year ban does not necessarily mean Daniel's career is over. Especially since he is only 21. If he is given a 4 year ban, he'll be 24 or 25 when it is over (depending on whether it is backdated to when he fell foul of the rules). And whilst that is old in Ladies Singles skating, it is not old in Men's Singles skating.

Look at motorbike rider Andrea Iannone. He was given a 4 year ban when he was 30, and everybody was saying his career was over. His ban ends in a few months time, and he has already been signed for next year, to ride the bike that is currently dominating the World Superbike Championship (although he will be riding for an independent team, his contract is directly with the manufacturer).

Four years on the sidelines hasn't done Iannone's career any harm. In fact, he's in a better position now than he was in before he got the ban!

So, although it may look it now, it is not necessarily all over for Daniel.

CaroLiza_fan

Ah, no. This is not about Grassl now, just very general: That's not how it works. You don't have to do a lot of paperwork, it's an app.
You don't have to be there all the time, you have to name one hour a day when you will be in a certain place.
If you aren't there they will usually immediately call you/try to contact you: where on earth are you, you aren't there.
If they still cannot reach you or you cannot come up with a very good explanation you will get a strike. They don't just send you an email or a mail you can easily overlook, they will have tried to reach your contacts, they will make a fuss.
If this happens to you 2 times, as an elite athlete... you will make sure it doesn't happen a 3rd time within one year.

 

[el henry]

“Your information is correct, it really is. At the moment, there is no decision whether to apply sanctions to Daniel. He was asked for an explanation,” said a spokesman for the Italian National Anti-Doping Organization (NADO Italia).

Link?

 

[el henry]

And yet, famous American athletes also failed to provide their wherabouts : google can be your friend here. It's wide-spread. It happens in all nations. I think it's best to wait for Daniel's explanation. Anything anyone may say at this point is speculative.

And are suspended forthwith, which is how you know about them. Every interview with American skaters is "keep USADA notified at all times". That athletes mess it up doesn't mean that's not the rule.

So far I have not seen any sources other than Russian media. I will wait to see if Italian or other media reports on this.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Ah, no. This is not about Grassl now, just very general: That's not how it works. You don't have to do a lot of paperwork, it's an app.

I was using "paperwork" in the more general sense, not in the strict sense of actual pieces of paper. I may be old fashioned, but I do realise that a lot of things are done electronically nowadays!

But, my point stands. That this sort of thing gets done by members of their team so that the athlete can concentrate on training.

You don't have to be there all the time, you have to name one hour a day when you will be in a certain place.
If you aren't there they will usually immediately call you/try to contact you: where on earth are you, you aren't there.
If they still cannot reach you or you cannot come up with a very good explanation you will get a strike. They don't just send you an email or a mail you can easily overlook, they will have tried to reach your contacts, they will make a fuss.
If this happens to you 2 times, as an elite athlete... you will make sure it doesn't happen a 3rd time within one year.

That wasn't the impression I got the time we had that fiasco with Carolina's boyfriend (can't even remember his name! That's how much of an impact he made on me! )

But, thank you for the clarification. It is reassuring to hear that they do use a bit of common sense.



CaroLiza_fan

 

[Amei]

So far I have not seen any sources other than Russian media. I will wait to see if Italian or other media reports on this.

On page 1 there is a quote from the Italian anti-doping agency confirming he missed 3 tests

Post in thread 'Daniel Grassl back in Italy' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/daniel-grassl-back-in-italy.96178/post-3154998

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Well I'm going to point out here, do we know this is the case? I regularly hear US athletes talk about it being drilled into their heads about keeping their location up to date for doping controls or calling in a hot line about anything they take to make sure is allowed, but has that been drilled into other athletes, like the Italians? Per what Caliban said this is the second prominent Italian athlete in a couple months that's been popped for this. Maybe Italy needs to do some refresher talks with their athletes

Even if the Anti-doping agency could stand to be more proactive in regularly reminding their athletes of the rules, I almost find it infantilising to shift the responsibility for this so fully away from the individual athletes.

At the end of the day, both Alexandra and Daniel are grown adults, who have been competitive athletes (and thus subject to Anti-doping rules and education programs) for many years, and if they feel unsure about any rules or are in a new situation, it is their responsibility to refresh their memory themselves, for which NADO Italia offers a wide range of online offers.

"And how many athletes do you think actually do all their won paperwork?! I would bet that the vast majority leave it to other people to do (management, parents, coaches), because they are too busy actually training!"

The thing is, at the end of the day you are responsible for making sure that everything is in order, even if you told someone else to do it. This doesn't just go for Anti-doping violations, but for many other things in life. If you tell your friend to hand in your homework, don't ask them about it again and they don't hand it in, it's your grade on the line not theirs. Some teachers might be nice enough to let you hand it in late, but they don't have to, and some won't. Like my mother always says "Trust is good, control is better." and that certainly goes for things that are as crucial as not violating Anti-doping rules.

It always winds me up that when testers arrive unannounced and the athlete is not there, it is treated as a violation. I know that what I am about to say is not what happened in this case, but do they not realise that athletes go on holidays, go to visit friends and relatives, go on daytrips / weekends away, or even just go shopping. They are not at home absolutely all of the time! But, the doping people seem to expect them to be.

This is simply not true. Going on holidays or weekend trips just means that you have to inform the doping agency of where you will be staying for the time being, and otherwise, you have to provide multiple addresses anyway - Home address, address for overnight accommodations, locations you are often like training, work and school (and at which times you will be there), competition schedules and locations and a 60 min time slot each day where you will be available and accessible for testing (and that's also the time slot in which you are liable for any missed tests, not if they come at any other time).

Is it still very restrictive? Of course, but nowhere near as bad as people often make it out to be. Athletes can't refuse to give a sample if they are approached even outside of the provided time window, but if the Anti-Doping officers cannot find them when they try to test them outside of the window, it's not considered a missed test.