Free Dance

[Tammi]

I'm a parent and I know that my skater doesn't read any of the message boards. I've seen comments posted about my skater and some I may agree with, others I find a bit comical and some are completely out of left field. Skaters should know that the only opinions that matter are the coaches and officials. They aren't skating for a good review on a message board. There are definitely some people out there who are pretty vicious. I know who they are and simply avoid reading anything that they write. I personally wouldn't classify dorispulaski as being mean spirited (and yes, she has mentioned my skater in her posts). Most of what she writes is simply play by play, with some of her own opinions mixed in. You either agree or disagree, you can debate your view and then move on. What is that old saying, "opinions are like (you know what), all of us has one" .

The whole costume thing is a little bit funny. I don't have a problem with stating whether it was representative of the theme, but it can get kind of silly. Especially when the ones making the comments are watching it on a little computer screen. Unfortunately to really appreciate some of the more intricate details, you have to be seeing it live at the event.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Hubbells will have alot to think about in the weeks to come. But, they also should take away alot of good thoughts from their performances this past week, and if they are so inclined, work their butts off and move forward towards next season. I wonder how much of this is due to the siblings skating together. Do siblings ever really make it to the elite level in ice dance? Someone refresh my memory....

Well, the Kerrs did but they were never cute little darlings. They had to skate without the fanfare of being cute. In fact many posters had problems with siblings skating together but that was more on romance than skating ability.

It's really a hard journey for the Hubbells. I would love for them to come back and prove me wrong. But how does one beat Schpilband? Maybe Tarrasova could take them on? Would she? is a better question.

 

[Tammi]

I have found myself comparing the Hubbells to the Kerrs on a number of occassions. IMO, they share a lot of similarities. I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but there doesn't seem to be the same girl/boy distinction that you see in other partnerships. It's almost like they are equals on the ice and either team member could be the "frame". I know that doesn't sound right and I truly love both these teams and appreciate the qualities that they bring to the ice. I'm just not sure that the judges like seeing the girl in such a strong role. Maybe the girls need bigger partners, while the guys need to be skating with someone shorter. They could then fit themselves into the judges mold, but ultimately lose something of themselves and what makes them such unique teams.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think it's way too premature to look at your list as USFS Oly. wish list. Historically, not all medalists from Jr.worlds did well in senior circuits. I can't see Shib.or C/Z will place well if compete against D/S, Dom/Sha, K/N,etc. in a year. I do think the Hubbells have good chance to be on the USFS wish list for Oly 2014, do not write them off. I doubt if N/B will last after next season with all the youngsters coming up in the next year or two.

Your points are well taken, but I feel th 2010 Nats will be somewhat different than the 2009 Worlds. The USFS's selection for 2009 Worlds is complete but it is subject to change in 2010. I do not know if C/Z are headed to Seniors in 2010, and if so, and their results of the GPs are favorable, I'm with them for the selection.

I can't imagine anyone breaking up the probabilities of 2010 Olys. Those I listed plus Belbin and Agosto (maybe Davis/White) will battle it out for that big comp.
I did mention that it is a 4 year wait between Olys. It's a long, tough wait, and motivation has to be engrained the any sportsman. If the Hubbells have that, then all power to them. I'll be rooting.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I have found myself comparing the Hubbells to the Kerrs on a number of occassions. IMO, they share a lot of similarities. I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but there doesn't seem to be the same girl/boy distinction that you see in other partnerships. It's almost like they are equals on the ice and either team member could be the "frame". I know that doesn't sound right and I truly love both these teams and appreciate the qualities that they bring to the ice. I'm just not sure that the judges like seeing the girl in such a strong role. Maybe the girls need bigger partners, while the guys need to be skating with someone shorter. They could then fit themselves into the judges mold, but ultimately lose something of themselves and what makes them such unique teams.

How did (do) you feel about the Duschesnays (sp)? Even comparing them with the revered Gods of Dance (T/D) it's a tough choice, and I do not think the romantic angle works against them. Check 'em out on youtube if you've never seen them.

 

[Tammi]

How did (do) you feel about the Duschesnays (sp)?

I've watched the Duchesnay's on youtube clips and I know that their innovative style was not well received in it's time (similar in that regard to the Hubbells and Kerrs). There wasn't much height difference between them, but that was the look back then. I respect that they stuck to their style even though the judges had a hard time accepting it.

 

[100yen]

I think Maia and Alex Shibutani will do very well because there isn't always people arguing about them....?

 

[dorispulaski]

It is true that having to see skating on the small screen is a different view than either TV or live. And unfortunately, the small screen is all that most fans will get to see in the foreseeable future, except for Olympics.

One of the worst drawbacks of the IN/small screen view, especially in dance, is that the soundtrack is often poorly synched with the video, so it is impossible to judge timing in anything other than the CD, and there only if you have great timing yourself and can hum the song for yourself (I am not that skilled, but I know those who can).

OTOH, just as in the days when skating was first televised in color, and skaters first became aware that colors do not look the same on TV as they do live, skaters who care about what the fans see should be filmed in costume with good quality lighting and then upload the film to youtube. That's what your fans will see, for good or evil.

 

[mycelticblessing]

It is true that having to see skating on the small screen is a different view than either TV or live. And unfortunately, the small screen is all that most fans will get to see in the foreseeable future, except for Olympics.

One of the worst drawbacks of the IN/small screen view, especially in dance, is that the soundtrack is often poorly synched with the video, so it is impossible to judge timing in anything other than the CD, and there only if you have great timing yourself and can hum the song for yourself (I am not that skilled, but I know those who can).

Yes, and it's such a pity too. Where I'm from, figure skating is only televised during the Olympics. For everything in between, it's youtube and livestreams.

And it appears that there's a huge gap even between TV and live. For instance, Caroline Kostner as all the commentators say, skate really really fast, making her really impressive on the ice in real life. Unfortunately, the speed doesn't reach the audience sitting at home.hwell:

 

[dorispulaski]

That is absolutely true about Carolina. She is the fastest lady skater I have seen in recent years. Alas, I may never be able to see her skate live again to appreciate it.

 

[samba]

I have found myself comparing the Hubbells to the Kerrs on a number of occassions. IMO, they share a lot of similarities. I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but there doesn't seem to be the same girl/boy distinction that you see in other partnerships. It's almost like they are equals on the ice and either team member could be the "frame". I know that doesn't sound right and I truly love both these teams and appreciate the qualities that they bring to the ice. I'm just not sure that the judges like seeing the girl in such a strong role. Maybe the girls need bigger partners, while the guys need to be skating with someone shorter. They could then fit themselves into the judges mold, but ultimately lose something of themselves and what makes them such unique teams.

It's not absolutely true that boys need to be much bigger in Ice Dance. If we're talking about pairs, then"yes". What about the Bulgarians, Albena is not much smaller than Max, they seem to be the same size but did not have problem? Keiffer also is not smaller than Mady, he's at least 3- 4" taller than his sister, he's over 6'.

 

[samba]

Your points are well taken, but I feel th 2010 Nats will be somewhat different than the 2009 Worlds. The USFS's selection for 2009 Worlds is complete but it is subject to change in 2010. I do not know if C/Z are headed to Seniors in 2010, and if so, and their results of the GPs are favorable, I'm with them for the selection.

I can't imagine anyone breaking up the probabilities of 2010 Olys. Those I listed plus Belbin and Agosto (maybe Davis/White) will battle it out for that big comp.
I did mention that it is a 4 year wait between Olys. It's a long, tough wait, and motivation has to be engrained the any sportsman. If the Hubbells have that, then all power to them. I'll be rooting.

I think the Oly 2010 is almost done deal for US. If there's no injury; B/A, D/W and S/B. I doubt very much C/Z will top these three teams.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I've watched the Duchesnay's on youtube clips and I know that their innovative style was not well received in it's time (similar in that regard to the Hubbells and Kerrs). There wasn't much height difference between them, but that was the look back then. I respect that they stuck to their style even though the judges had a hard time accepting it.

Tammi - It's more than style, and it's more than cute. It's comparing by skating ability. The Duchesnays were super technicians as well as innovative. I know they weren't cute.

 

[Tammi]

It's not absolutely true that boys need to be much bigger in Ice Dance. If we're talking about pairs, then"yes". What about the Bulgarians, Albena is not much smaller than Max, they seem to be the same size but did not have problem? Keiffer also is not smaller than Mady, he's at least 3- 4" taller than his sister, he's over 6'.

I realize that dancers don't need as much of a height difference as pairs, but the "look" that appeals to the judges does seem to be changing. Teams have even been advised that they may need to change partners to get a different look. I remember not too long ago, there was talk about Samuelson & Bates not being close enough in height and it may have been why DelShoes were kept behind everyone else. Now that's no longer the case and teams like the Shibs are able to be successful. CoP is requiring more athletic requirements for dancers and that pretty much translates to having a bigger boy/smaller girl team. Because Maia is so much smaller, Alex Shibutani is able to perform a one armed rotational lift on one leg. The lift is easily a level 4 and he does it so well they get positive GOE's. I'm just pointing this example out because I think that the judges prefer this style as opposed to the girl being able to hold up the guy.

I think the Oly 2010 is almost done deal for US. If there's no injury; B/A, D/W and S/B. I doubt very much C/Z will top these three teams.

I think you hit the nail on the head though about the injury. "If" we do lose one of those teams, that 3rd spot is not buttoned up by anyone. I also think back to the last Nationals prior to the Olympics and we were shown then that ice is slippery and a team that many thought were secure for an Olympic spot didn't even go.

Tammi - It's more than style, and it's more than cute. It's comparing by skating ability. The Duchesnays were super technicians as well as innovative. I know they weren't cute.

From the clips I've seen, I would not describe the Duchesnays as cute either. Is that a term that was normally associated with them back when they competed?

 

[samba]

Tammi, there're other factors to be successful as well. I don't think Tessa is not much smaller than Scott. Even with the new CoP, they are also doing very well. In the older era, as I mentioned earlier, the Bulgarians were two time Worlds champions when Albena is not much smaller than Max. S/B are doing well since she's able to adjust to his height well and being skating together for a decade also helped. I think the more important factor is the boy has to be strong skater, no matter big or small frame. The weak tall boy is not going to do much for the team, IMO.

 

[Tammi]

Yup, definitely lots of different factors and even things that have nothing to do with physical (i.e. the politics of the coach standing with them on the boards). Having all the right combinations certainly gives a team the edge. I'm really glad to see many different looks out there and not a cookie cutter mold.

 

[dorispulaski]

COP has been kindest to dance in many ways. You'd think it would produce cookie cutter teams, but the teams, coaches and choreographers, on the whole, have been extremely creative in working within the rules.

And the tech requirement of COP really have caused many teams to expand their group of skills. Before COP you could find highly ranked teams where only one of the couple really had top notch skills. You could also find couples where they could not twizzle without having little hopped 3 turns.

 

[lcd]

I Because Maia is so much smaller, Alex Shibutani is able to perform a one armed rotational lift on one leg. The lift is easily a level 4 and he does it so well they get positive GOE's.

They get more than just "positive" GOEs for that lift. They get WOW GOEs. At Junior Worlds they received a total of 6 separate grades of +3. The only ones awarded in the entire dance competition. Random selection of which judges' marks were chosen for inclusion in the scores seemed to prevent them from getting full credit for this achievement in their final scores.

The only other +3s in the entire competition were for Caroline Zhang's trademark "Pearl Spin" There were none in Mens or Pairs. The Shibutani's need to come up with a name for that lift.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think it has to do with the fact that the dancers all have excellent technique and that all the judges have to look for are errors on this occasion only to separate the teams. Also it becomes down to which coach gave the skaters the more likeable programs Then the scores all becomes subjective. That's why the CoP really serves no purpose in Skate Dance, imo.

 

[samba]

Yup, definitely lots of different factors and even things that have nothing to do with physical (i.e. the politics of the coach standing with them on the boards). Having all the right combinations certainly gives a team the edge. I'm really glad to see many different looks out there and not a cookie cutter mold.

Are you saying that it made Igor's camp a full house? Just having Igor standing at the board with the team?