How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

[Mathman]

Here's the thing. To me, every competition is its own reward. If you win the Grand Prix Final, your prize is -- you won the Grand Prix Final.

Next month -- another opening, another show.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If Alissa Czisny is bye-passed for the Worlds because she finished 3rd at US Nats, you will hear this Forum scream that the Nationals does not select the strongest skater to compete in world-wide competitions. No?

 

[janetfan]

If Alissa Czisny is bye-passed for the Worlds because she finished 3rd at US Nats, you will hear this Forum scream that the Nationals does not select the strongest skater to compete in world-wide competitions. No?

Somehow I doubt that.
I think fans of Alissa will feel bad if she does not skate well at Natls - but will accept it if Rachael bounces back and if Mirai or Ashley finish ahead of her. Or others......

Alissa has many detractors who will most likely be glad to see others at the top of the podium. Having favorites as a fan does not necessarily mean we want to see skaters gifted.

If Ashley wins Natls and Rachael finishes second then i think they earned the right to go to Worlds. I will be sad for Mirai and Alissa - but see neither of them as so superior to the others that they deserve favors.

USA may not have a Kwan at the moment - but I think Alissa showed yesterday our girls can be competitive.

Worlds is much tougher than the GPF with it's six competitors. I think Natls will be harder for Alissa to win than the GPF was yesterday - and Worlds of course is much tougher than Natls.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^
Trust me not every poster believes the results of the US Nats will be the best team to show off the American Ladies. Your problem with the Gran Prix is weird. The GP is composed of 72 slots to be filled by world-wide skating Federations. The US Nats is a country competition. GP and USNats are incomparable.

Your doubting the anxiety of the Czisny fans is not well thought out. You seem to write for the sake of writing. No one knows how Czisny fans will feel if she is not selected for the Worlds. I know I would feel the US system has failed.

I'm not interested in any more "IFs" unless it is the official Management Committee showing some b*lls.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Here's the thing. To me, every competition is its own reward. If you win the Grand Prix Final, your prize is -- you won the Grand Prix Final.

Brilliant as if no one knew that. Then there is the greatest show on earth, the US Nats, which goes beyond great. hmmm.

 

[janetfan]

^^
Trust me not every poster believes the results of the US Nats will be the best team to show off the American Ladies. Your problem with the Gran Prix is weird. The GP is composed of 72 slots to be filled by world-wide skating Federations. The US Nats is a country competition. GP and USNats are incomparable.

Your doubting the anxiety of the Czisny fans is not well thought out. You seem to write for the sake of writing. No one knows how Czisny fans will feel if she is not selected for the Worlds. I know I would feel the US system has failed.

I'm not interested in any more "IFs" unless it is the official Management Committee showing some b*lls.

You like to one up me but complain when I give it back.
I think we disagree - Your comments are NOT scripture. just opinions like mine.

I like the current system. I also know enough Alissa fans share my sentiments and what you wrote in an attempt to be sarcastic sounds false.

If you want the truth as I see it - here it is: No one knows who will skate the best at Worlds. Ladies skating and all skating for that matter can be very unpredictable. The committee does not have a crystal ball.

US Skating in it's wisdom has decided to select the Intl teams based on a Natl competition.

The reason: they don't know who will do the best. That is why they let them skate for it.

That is not just fair but simple enough for most to understand.

It's fine if you don't like it. But where is your solution or ideas on the best way to change it :think: :think:

 

[Layfan]

If Alissa Czisny is bye-passed for the Worlds because she finished 3rd at US Nats, you will hear this Forum scream that the Nationals does not select the strongest skater to compete in world-wide competitions. No?

Maybe some will complain but in the end who cares who screams in this Forum? Rachael and Mirai could beat Alissa at worlds. And maybe Alissa will be sent anyway instead of Rachael. And then maybe Rachael will win FC and Alissa will finish 10th at worlds. THEN you''ll hear screaming on this forum...

However... fingers crossed that Alissa will skate well enough at national to win or finish second - then do well at worlds. We know she is capable


But leaving aside what people on this forum want to happen - the committee IS allowed to consider the results of the GPF isn't it? Just asking but it IS possible for them to choose Alissa if she is third? I don't think that will happen - first of all they might consider how Alissa did the last two times she went to worlds - but just asking: they could, right?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Maybe. But some are implying it was just "luck" that Alissa won the GPF. And maybe she will falter at nationals. Do you honestly think she should be sent to worlds if she falters at nationals on the strength of the GPF? If she falters at nationals don't you think there is just as much a chance she would falter at worlds?

Since many are "IFFing" the Teams selection, what if she places 2nd in Nats. She will go by the Fairness Rule. Will there be still implications of "luck"?

I understand you are all about sending the "best team." But I think no current lady's past record is a clear indication that they are part of this "best team." I'm still leaning towards the belief that the current system is probably best - whoever finishes 1-2 gets to go but there are rules in place that allow for VERY rare exceptions.

I never said "best". It's always been "Strongest". There is a difference. Those rules in place could kill Czisny's chances of being selected. I do not think the Rule of Fairness is in place. It was a no brainer for Kwan to always be at the Worlds. There is a Management Committee which is official but continues to play the Kwan Rule. You and others like it. So be it. I don't. I want a strong team - not a lucky at Nats team.

Maybe the rule should be changed that if a skater wins the GPF final he/she automatically get to go to worlds. I don't know. But I think in this particularly case, a (hopefully) healthier Rachael and Mirai should deserve the chance to prove they are part of the best team.

No - the Managment Committe should remain! It should select the strongest team to show off the USFS Federation. Maybe the members of that Committee should be changed if they can not recognize the 'strongest team'. Not sure of their criteria. But the Kwan Rule has had its day, imo.

 

[gkelly]

But leaving aside what people on this forum want to happen - the committee IS allowed to consider the results of the GPF isn't it? Just asking but it IS possible for them to choose Alissa if she is third? I don't think that will happen - first of all they might consider how Alissa did the last two times she went to worlds - but just asking: they could, right?

The national champion is guaranteed a spot on the world team, whoever it is, assuming they're eligible.

There are two spots available, so the second spot doesn't have to go to the silver medalist.

I expect if any of the skaters who competed on the Grand Prix or had Junior Grand Prix medals ends up second at Nationals, that skater will go to Worlds, even if the third-place finisher won the GP Final. The rules would allow sending the bronze instead of silver medalist, but I don't think GP results will override Nationals results. Nationals placement is still listed as the most important criterion.

If someone who has little or no international experience at all happens to end up second (none of those skaters' names have been mentioned in this thread), then I suppose that skater might get passed over for the bronze medalist, especially if that person should happen to be the GPF champion. The rules would allow that.

I don't think Czisny has enough of a record that she could afford to skip Nationals and get named to the team instead of an experienced silver medalist who completed the competition. I suppose if she won the short program by a huge margin and then broke a blade during the freeskate or some fluke like that, they might consider it.

 

[janetfan]

The national champion is guaranteed a spot on the world team, whoever it is, assuming they're eligible.

There are two spots available, so the second spot doesn't have to go to the silver medalist.

I expect if any of the skaters who competed on the Grand Prix or had Junior Grand Prix medals ends up second at Nationals, that skater will go to Worlds, even if the third-place finisher won the GP Final. The rules would allow sending the bronze instead of silver medalist, but I don't think GP results will override Nationals results. Nationals placement is still listed as the most important criterion.

If someone who has little or no international experience at all happens to end up second (none of those skaters' names have been mentioned in this thread), then I suppose that skater might get passed over for the bronze medalist, especially if that person should happen to be the GPF champion. The rules would allow that.

I don't think Czisny has enough of a record that she could afford to skip Nationals and get named to the team instead of an experienced silver medalist who completed the competition. I suppose if she won the short program by a huge margin and then broke a blade during the freeskate or some fluke like that, they might consider it.

Thanks gkelly for that good explanation.
I am not against a change in the selection rules - but still feel Natls should remain as the most important factor.

The GP is a wonderful event - but as pogue and others have pointed out there is a "flukiness" factor to it.
That is the same as meaning "luck" can be involved. Some have claimed winning Natls or finishing second is all about "luck."

While that can be true - it can't be denied that the skaters all have the same fair chance at this "luck" when skating at Natls.

That simply is not true in the GP. Had Alissa skated at COC she might have not won against Miki and Akiko that night.
Mirai might have placed higher at the less competitive SC and made the final.

It is all good and fun for FANS but feels far, far away from being definitive. If Miki did not bomb her SP then she would be the GPF. All skating can be seen to have this "luck" factor at times.

What brings this "luck" factor to a level playing field is eliminating the flukiness and undeniable unlevel palying field we see too often at the GP.

At Natls luck usually equals skating well. At the GP it depends on many other factors starting with the "luck of the draw" a pure example of "flukiness"

I don't think the GP can be in anyway considered a fair measuring stick. For that we need to see all of the skaters at Natls.

Best team or strongest team?

Is it such a leap of faith to see the skaters that rise to the challenge of Natls as being the strongest :think:

Or does having a cupcake assignment at SC make you the strongest :think:

This seems pretty obvious to me - that head to head competition trumps a typically fluky luck of the draw event.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I like the current system.

Bully! That's the best sentence you made without "IFs".

US Skating in it's wisdom has decided to select the Intl teams based on a Natl competition.

Write to MM. He's thinks it should be used as a Try Out like it is for the Summer Olympic Team. Those same players do not tryout for their Worlds. We differ because FS is a tiny competitive sport. At first you saw the Kwan method as being fair. Now you changed your tune to it being the "best" way but not to include "strength". 30 US skaters have shown their best when taking their Tests. The best skaters among them have shown their strength through numerous competions including all of the GPs - segments and final.

Using the Nats method which is not official nor is it divined wisdom will show the podium of the Nats. Over and Out. A Committee will analyze the scope of the contestants not by medals but by strength and will come up with a consensus of which skaters will possibly handle the worlds.

Do the members have the expertise to analyze and judge all this? They should, and I hope they do not come up with the rubber stamp.

Your system does make for a do or die approach but it will not necessarily make the best Team. That's your opinion, and I'm going with the established Management Committee.

 

[R.D.]

I never said "best". It's always been "Strongest". There is a difference. Those rules in place could kill Czisny's chances of being selected. I do not think the Rule of Fairness is in place. It was a no brainer for Kwan to always be at the Worlds. There is a Management Committee which is official but continues to play the Kwan Rule. You and others like it. So be it. I don't. I want a strong team - not a lucky at Nats team.

There you go.

 

[janetfan]

There you go.

No, here we go

You want to see a strong team? We will see for sure how strong Alissa is at Natls next month.

She might not have made the GPF but for her "lucky" assignment to SC. That was not strength - that was luck of the draw.

Mirai had to skate against Miki and Akiko at COC. Alissa had to beat much less accomplished Canadian Ladies..

We will see without any doubt who the strongest two are at Natls -
It will be exciting and have a ton of pressure.

That is called competition. That is what determines strength and toughness.

Easy assignemnts, the flukiness of the GP is based as much on luck as strength.

Natls is much different than the GP , there is no fluky assigments or lucky draw - just mental toughness and good skating.

 

[Layfan]

That simply is not true in the GP. Had Alissa skated at COC she might have not won against Miki and Akiko that night.
Mirai might have placed higher at the less competitive SC and made the final.

Good point.

And gkelly - thanks for the explanation. I agree Alissa doesn't have the record to be able to afford to miss nationals or do her best there.

But the GPF is a huge feather in a her hat I just hope it gives her more confidence and not more nerves. Fair or not it will probably help her in PCS, but she already doesn't need much help in that department. Especially at nationals.

I hope she makes worlds. If she doesn't - I'm already glad she stuck around for another season, and gave us two new gorgeous Alissa programs to look back on.

Joe - as far as what people on this forum think - if you read back a couple of posts here and other threads, you'll see there are plenty of people who are already insisting she should not go to worlds if she's third because of her history of falling apart there. Fair enough but in any case - the reaction of all of us on this forum is rarely very meaningful.

But for the sake of argument - let's say we do take the GP series into account. Is the next strongest skater Mirai or Rachael? Rachael had a horrible GPF. But Mirai didn't even make it and Rachael won silver at both her event. See, this is my problem - and I'm not just trying to be difficult or defend the importance of nationals at any cost. It's just that everytime I think it through, I come to the conclusion that nothing concrete can be concluded from the GP series, most of the time.

 

[janetfan]

Good point.

And gkelly - thanks for the explanation. I agree Alissa doesn't have the record to be able to afford to miss nationals or do her best there.

But the GPF is a huge feather in a her hat I just hope it gives her more confidence and not more nerves. Fair or not it will probably help her in PCS, but she already doesn't need much help in that department. Especially at nationals.

I hope she makes worlds. If she doesn't - I'm already glad she stuck around for another season, and gave us two new gorgeous Alissa programs to look back on.

Joe - as far as what people on this forum think - if you read back a couple of posts here and other threads, you'll see there are plenty of people who are already insisting she should not go to worlds if she's third because of her history of falling apart there. Fair enough but in any case - the reaction of all of us on this forum is rarely very meaningful.

But for the sake of argument - let's say we do take the GP series into account. Is the next strongest skater Mirai or Rachael? Rachael had a horrible GPF. But Mirai didn't even make it and Rachael won silver at both her event. See, this is my problem - and I'm not just trying to be difficult or defend the importance of nationals at any cost. It's just that everytime I think it through, I come to the conclusion that nothing concrete can be concluded from the GP series, most of the time.

Well said......very good logic and FAIRNESS in your words.

A few of us were over the moon about Aliss'a win yesterday.

I said maybe Mirai would have made the GPF if she didn't have Akiko and Miki at COC. I was expecting an aswer back - but Alissa beat Akiko and Miki yesterday.

My reply would have been that Mirai beat Alissa at TEB

The flukiness of the GP makes it very difficult for fair minded fans to ever think it should count for more than Natls.

 

[silverlake22]

Good point.

And gkelly - thanks for the explanation. I agree Alissa doesn't have the record to be able to afford to miss nationals or do her best there.

But the GPF is a huge feather in a her hat I just hope it gives her more confidence and not more nerves. Fair or not it will probably help her in PCS, but she already doesn't need much help in that department. Especially at nationals.

I hope she makes worlds. If she doesn't - I'm already glad she stuck around for another season, and gave us two new gorgeous Alissa programs to look back on.

Joe - as far as what people on this forum think - if you read back a couple of posts here and other threads, you'll see there are plenty of people who are already insisting she should not go to worlds if she's third because of her history of falling apart there. Fair enough but in any case - the reaction of all of us on this forum is rarely very meaningful.

But for the sake of argument - let's say we do take the GP series into account. Is the next strongest skater Mirai or Rachael? Rachael had a horrible GPF. But Mirai didn't even make it and Rachael won silver at both her event. See, this is my problem - and I'm not just trying to be difficult or defend the importance of nationals at any cost. It's just that everytime I think it through, I come to the conclusion that nothing concrete can be concluded from the GP series, most of the time.

Keep in mind that although Rachael's 82 point FS at the GPF was a huge dissappointment, Mirai only scored 87 for her FS at CoC. They were both coming off injuries, and then at her next event just a few weeks later Mirai put up an impressive 167 for the competition. There's no saying Rachael won't do the same at nationals now that she has sufficient time to get back into the swing of training. So yes, Rachael laid at egg at the GPF, but so did Mirai at CoC, and so did Ashley at NHK, and so did Alissa at sectionals and TEB (the FS there at least), and so did Agnes in the FS at both her GP events, and so did Christina at the JGPF - the point is, ALL the ladies in contention for the World team have had at least one off competition/program so far this season. While it's unfortunate that Rachael's off event came at her last competition before nationals, it can't be taken too seriously. If she skates like she did in the FS at Skate America at nationals, she could very well be on the World Team. If Agnes and Christina can hit their 3-3s the judges might go goo goo gaga over them and THEY could be on the World Team. If Alissa has a repeat of her TEB FS, there is a strong possibility she WON'T be on the World Team. The thing is we don't know, and if we are going to take Rachael's bad GPF to heart we also need to acknowledge the other girls screw ups so far this season.

 

[janetfan]

Keep in mind that although Rachael's 82 point FS at the GPF was a huge dissappointment, Mirai only scored 87 for her FS at CoC. They were both coming off injuries, and then at her next event just a few weeks later Mirai put up an impressive 167 for the competition. There's no saying Rachael won't do the same at nationals now that she has sufficient time to get back into the swing of training. So yes, Rachael laid at egg at the GPF, but so did Mirai at CoC, and so did Ashley at NHK, and so did Alissa at sectionals and TEB (the FS there at least), and so did Agnes in the FS at both her GP events, and so did Christina at the JGPF - the point is, ALL the ladies in contention for the World team have had at least one off competition/program so far this season. While it's unfortunate that Rachael's off event came at her last competition before nationals, it can't be taken too seriously. If she skates like she did in the FS at Skate America at nationals, she could very well be on the World Team. If Agnes and Christina can hit their 3-3s the judges might go goo goo gaga over them and THEY could be on the World Team. If Alissa has a repeat of her TEB FS, there is a strong possibility she WON'T be on the World Team. The thing is we don't know, and if we are going to take Rachael's bad GPF to heart we also need to acknowledge the other girls screw ups so far this season.

Those are reasonable thoughts - but Mirai won the SP at COC , right? She did not bomb both of her programs.

Let's be fair and consider Rachael was skating with an injury yesterday. She was far from her best. Fair fans will also admit Mirai was unprepared for the LP at COC. She bombed but still finished fouth and only an added combo kept her off the podium.

Rachael bombed much worse yesterday - again , I can be fair and think Rachael was in no condition to compete at her best.

I hope Rachael bounces back at Natls. I know she is not only much better than what she showed at the GPF - but typically a very good competitior.

Don't factors like this more or less prove that Natls is a better indicator than the GP?
Christina may medal at Natls. She should not be eliminated for bombing at the JGPF.

I say let them skate for it......let's see who the strongest skaters are on a LEVEL playing field.
The flukiness of the GP is simply undeniable......
Natls feels more real to me - and that is why US Skating values it so highly :yes:

 

[silverlake22]

Those are reasonable thoughts - but Mirai won the SP at COC , right? She did not bomb both of her programs.

Let's be fair and consider Rachael was skating with an injury yesterday. She was far from her best. Fair fans will also admit Mirai was unprepared for the LP at COC. She bombed but still finished fouth and only an added combo kept her off the podium.

Rachael bombed much worse yesterday - again , I can be fair and think Rachael was in no condition to compete at her best.

I hope Rachael bounces back at Natls. I know she is not only much better than what she showed at the GPF - but typically a very good competitior.

Don't factors like this more or less prove that Natls is a better indicator than the GP?
Christina may medal at Natls. She should not be eliminated for bombing at the JGPF.

I say let them skate for it......let's see who the strongest skaters are on a LEVEL playing field.
The flukiness of the GP is simply undeniable......
Natls feels more real to me - and that is why US Skating values it so highly :yes:

Mirai won the SP at CoC because she was not issued a downgrade for her obviously under-rotated 3f. But anyway, she didn't bomb the whole competition but the FS was a huge letdown considering her TES was like 32.

Pretty much all the ladies are on equal footing now, they have all had their ups and downs this season and have to bring it at nationals to prove they are the best skaters and strongest competitors.

 

[Layfan]

Mirai won the SP at CoC because she was not issued a downgrade for her obviously under-rotated 3f. But anyway, she didn't bomb the whole competition but the FS was a huge letdown considering her TES was like 32.

Pretty much all the ladies are on equal footing now, they have all had their ups and downs this season and have to bring it at nationals to prove they are the best skaters and strongest competitors.

:thumbsup:

Mirai and Rachael deserve the chance the show what they can do with the extra training and healing time before Nats.

 

[Nadine]

All this drama over what?

US Nationals, as always, will decide whom will go to Worlds, as it should be. Not the GP series nor the GPF, et al.

And on that score I see N-O-N-E of the ladies having an advantage over the others. Why? Because none of them has an Olympic or World Medal to her name, which would help out greatly, but even then it doesn't always work. For example, yes, Sarah Hughes won the Olympic Gold Medal in 2002, but she still only came in 2nd to Michelle Kwan at 2003 US Nationals. So if an Olympic or World Medal doesn't help you, then by no means will a GPF Medal. Speaking only of winning, of course, Sarah made the World Team as usual in her career.

But those were different times & a different era, with far greater skaters than we have nowadays. None of the women skating today can match the records of Michelle, Sarah, Sasha (ALL medalled at the Olympics, Worlds, GP series, GPF, etc.). It was de rigueur for them. The same cannot be said of Rachael, Alissa, Mirai, Ashley, et al.

So my point is that they ALL start off on an even keel, no one is better than the other (or should be in the judges eyes imho; their have been questionable calls in the past). The one thing 3 of them have in common is that they are ALL US National Champions (aka Mirai, Alissa, Rachael), so there should be no favoritism there. And the young ones new to the scene shouldn't think they don't have a chance either, as US Nationals history proves that you can win on your first try (ala Mirai Nagasu). The GP series, et al doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, as it should be.

That said, I was rather shocked by Joesitz's post #464, stating that if Alissa Czisny does not make the World Team he feels the US system has failed (posted verbatim btw). Whoa, pretty strong words when you haven't even seen how she or anybody else has skated at US Nationals yet. On this point, I totally agree with janetfan, whom at least is giving everybody a fair shot, not basing it on the GP series or the GPF alone.

It's do or die time, no favors for any of them, they either skate clean & blow everybody away, or they fall & go home for another chance next year. No counting on reputation to save them, nor past glory, it's now or never. Everything is on the line, everybody has a fair shake, it's up to the skaters to make a little magic happen. ^)

arty:GOOOOOOOO US NATIONALS!!!!!!arty: