ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[icewhite]

Could be anyone. The ISU is ran by idiots, after all. They do this all the time . A silly rule is created. That rule backfires. And a few years later another silly rule is implemented to counteract the previous one.

One of the issues is that the silliest rules are aimed at only one or two skaters, which is something I hate. Such rules are bound to not turn out the way as planned because these rules will be for everyone, not just one or two skaters.

I believe the “six-jump/three allowed repeats” proposal is meant to correct the rule that only one quad can be repeated. This rule was meant for Nathan Chen as he was one of the very few skaters even repeating quads in the free skate in the first place. At the time, people thought he would be at a disadvantage, but it should have been obvious (at least it was to me) that that wouldn’t be the case. How does such a thing hurt someone that can land all the jumps? It turned out that Chen was more dominant than ever and that rule played a part. A small one, but a part it played.

This new proposal will of course result in a bigger gap between the big jumpers and everyone else.

ISU needs to stop fiddling with the rules every ten minutes and, most of all, stop trying to handicap the jumps. If the goal is to even the playing field, that’s not the way to go about it.

(And why does the field need to be even in the first place?)

Is it really targeting a specific skater? Personally I don't like programs that are not programs, where there is only a drill of elements - in pairs this is so bad that I don't really like to watch pairs. There is no room (time) for individuality or atmosphere in most of their programs.
I think if these proposals went through Malinin would still dominate. They are not enough to "even the playing field". But they might give us better programs. We could in theory also make the programs longer, but I think people just don't want to watch things for ages and everything gets more expensive with longer programs (or you have fewer skaters).
Like I said, more repetition of the same jumps is silly, the rest seems to adress the problems of programs in which skaters just run from element to element.
Nobody likes the ISU, certainly not me, but this seems to go into the right direction. Of course it depends on what exactly happens in the end.

 

[Arigato]

There's a Russian journalist who travelled to Worlds and talked to the officials. She claims that six jumps in the FS are definitely happening. She also said that the backflip would be allowed and the BV of the spins and StSq would be increased.

"Well, a quad only takes half a second."
- Nathan Chen


I hope all 3 in bold happen. Physically, it takes little time to do a quad as Nathan mentioned but 30-40 seconds to do a SSQ. The time and energy required to do a high-octane SSQ dwarfs a quad and the reason you have seen lackluster SSQs from people over the years is the lack of reward and, frankly, the lack of athleticism. As for spins, I am irritated when I see slow spins. Okay, so it goes beyond irritation. Reward those who do SSQ's and spins well and perhaps we'll see innovation in that area as a result.

 

[TontoK]

"Well, a quad only takes half a second."
- Nathan Chen


I hope all 3 in bold happen. Physically, it takes little time to do a quad as Nathan mentioned but 30-40 seconds to do a SSQ. The time and energy required to do a high-octane SSQ dwarfs a quad and the reason you have seen lackluster SSQs from people over the years is the lack of reward and, frankly, the lack of athleticism. As for spins, I am irritated when I see slow spins. Okay, so it goes beyond irritation. Reward those who do SSQ's and spins well and perhaps we'll see innovation in that area as a result.

While jumps are very important, I agree that the other elements should be valued more than they are now.

Few skaters can make a spin a program highlight (Jason, Brown for example). Truly good spins... and I am not talking about those with the halfway illusion entries or lackluster butterfly exits... deserve more reward.

To repeat what I wrote earlier... basic position unleveled spins in the SP would go a long way towards clearing out the fluff so we can see real quality.

 

[Mathman]

I continue to have mixed feelings about the backflip. which still seems more appropriate to professional show skating than to a competition. The higher you get off the ice the less you are actually skating. Any gymnast can do a backflip on a tumbling mat that is of a quality that no figure skater can touch.

On the other hand, I like Russian split jumps, even though any ballet dancer can embarrass any figure skater in a split jump contest, so I guess I don't know my own mind on this issue.

I have also not abandoned my concern about the need for proper instruction and supervision of children learning various skating tricks.

 

[4everchan]

"Well, a quad only takes half a second."
- Nathan Chen


I hope all 3 in bold happen. Physically, it takes little time to do a quad as Nathan mentioned but 30-40 seconds to do a SSQ. The time and energy required to do a high-octane SSQ dwarfs a quad and the reason you have seen lackluster SSQs from people over the years is the lack of reward and, frankly, the lack of athleticism. As for spins, I am irritated when I see slow spins. Okay, so it goes beyond irritation. Reward those who do SSQ's and spins well and perhaps we'll see innovation in that area as a result.

the actual jump is indeed very short-lived... but the set up, acquiring speed across the ice, takes a whole lot of time... watching the men's LP live was at times very boring with skaters having to skate from one end of the ice to the other.... set up, jump... sometimes it was 20 seconds before the jump... So, as much as I love Nathan Chen, if the quote is even from him, that's not the whole truth. So taking away one jumping pass, allows indeed for an extra 20 seconds that can be used for personalized choreography, for those who can indeed do it

 

[TontoK]

I continue to have mixed feelings about the backflip. which still seems more appropriate to professional show skating than to a competition. The higher you get off the ice the less you are actually skating. Any gymnast can do a backflip on a tumbling mat that is of a quality that no figure skater can touch.

On the other hand, I like Russian split jumps, even though any ballet dancer can embarrass any figure skater in a split jump contest, so I guess I don't know my own mind on this issue.

I have also not abandoned my concern about the need for proper instruction and supervision of children learning various skating tricks.

Same. I wrote on another thread that I was open to being convinced that it should be allowed, especially in a LP. But I am not open to arguments that it is "new" or "innovative." It's not, and for me as a viewer, it's not even exciting.

On the other hand, it is a crowd-pleaser, and figure skating could use happy crowds.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Is it really targeting a specific skater?

Not this new proposal. This proposal is attempting to correct a previous rule that did target a specific skater.

I think if these proposals went through Malinin would still dominate. They are not enough to "even the playing field".

Agreed.

But they might give us better programs.

How? It’s my understanding that only a jumping pass will be removed and it’s not being replaced by anything. The only thing in that proposal that makes sense is increasing the base values of spins and step sequences. However, that doesn’t necessarily correct that there isn’t enough scoring difference between elements done well and elements done poorly. My educated guess is that Brown’s spins will still score only a little bit more than Pulkinen’s because the issue is not the BV, though that’s a step in the right direction. The issue is that poor quality can still get the highest level and positive GOES which I think is something that will not change. Level 4 steps are currently valued at 3.90 and level 3 at 3.3. Increasing level 4 to 5.0 while increasing level 3 to the same amount changes nothing. ISU consistently makes “changes” like this that ultimately change nothing or backfire. This is why changes are made so frequently.

 

[4everchan]

Same. I wrote on another thread that I was open to being convinced that it should be allowed, especially in a LP. But I am not open to arguments that it is "new" or "innovative." It's not, and for me as a viewer, it's not even exciting.

I don't like them that much either... but why not ? Not everyone can do a splendid Ina Bauer

On the other hand, it is a crowd-pleaser, and figure skating could use happy crowds.

Considering the immediate roars of the crowd for every single backflip performed at the Gala this weekend, the crowd loves a backflip... .They love it even more when it's done over Nam... Maybe Nam can be put in center ice at every competition.

 

[Mathman]

I wish they'd leave the free programs alone, and instead experiment with the short programs to permit more direct comparison between skaters on at least some elements.

For instance, a basic unleveled change-foot camel spin. No donut, no catchfoot, no bent leg, no change of edge, nothing like that. Basic position held x number of rotations on each foot. Or a classic layback with no change of position within the spin.

This was, in fact, the original idea of the short (aka technical) program). It was intended to replace compulsory figures, with every skater expected to do exactly the same thing and then the judges were to decide who did it best. The required jumps would be specified (this year it might be a double loop, the next year it would be a double flip). Truple Axels for ladies were never allowed because not many ladies could do one at all, so no comparison of quality was possible.

Over the years requirements were relaxed until the short program became merely a long program (but mercifully shorter : )).

As for basic spins, I think we have to blame the IJS. The philosophy of the IJS is that every little curlique of a variation deserves a few extra hundreths of a point. One year the ISU decided that the Biellmann position deseved a bonus. The next year everyone was doing a Biellmann, mostly badly. Skaters cannot waste time demonstrating a beautiful arabesque layback or a rousing scratch spin because they have to rush off to the next change of position.

Not complaining exactly, but just noting that with every change of rules, something is lost, something is gained.

 

[4everchan]

How? It’s my understanding that only a jumping pass will be removed and it’s not being replaced by anything.

It's replaced by more time for choreo. I wish they removed one element too in pairs as the programs are also generic in pairs.

 

[YuBluByMe]

It's replaced by more time for choreo.

Oh, no, no, no. Is the seventh jumping pass, in the black and white being replaced by a second step sequence or choreo sequence? If not, my point stands and this is just going to be another change that backfires.

 

[4everchan]

Oh, no, no, no. Is the seventh jumping pass, in the black and white being replaced by a second step sequence or choreo sequence? If not, my point stands and this is just going to be another change that backfires.

No... it's not replaced by anything formal... It's replaced by an opportunity for the skaters to add transitions in between elements, instead of two foot skating and crossovers... Of course, it's up to the skaters to make the most of it... if indeed it passes.

 

[4everchan]

Here is an example..

One big jump removed... some opening choreo which gets extended into the lead for the first combo. Quite a lot of skating.



With the big jump ... no opening choreo. Jump attempted... Then gets into the lead for the first combo almost right away. Very little choreo




You may argue it's not much, a walley a few connecting steps... but to me, it is meaningful when watching 30 skaters in a row. Also, what is most striking in Alaine's program without the 3a is the flow she got with the added time. It gave a completely different impression of the program in the end.

 

[gkelly]

This was, in fact, the original idea of the short (aka technical) program). It was intended to replace compulsory figures,

Not really.

The short program was first introduced for pair skaters in the 1960s, because pairs only had one phase of competition (free skate) while the singles and ice dancers had compulsories and then free skate/free dance.

So in that sense the pairs short program was originally intended as something comparable to the compulsory figures for singles.

Then something in between compulsory and free skating was introduced for dance (original set pattern) and for singles (short program similar to the pairs short program, with mostly very specific required elements as you describe.

It took another 18 years for the singles compulsory figures to be eliminated. And about 40 years for the compulsory dances.

As for basic spins, I think we have to blame the IJS. The philosophy of the IJS is that every little curlique of a variation deserves a few extra hundreths of a point. One year the ISU decided that the Biellmann position deseved a bonus. The next year everyone was doing a Biellmann, mostly badly. Skaters cannot waste time demonstrating a beautiful arabesque layback or a rousing scratch spin because they have to rush off to the next change of position.

Not complaining exactly, but just noting that with every change of rules, something is lost, something is gained.

I could see an argument for including leveled spins in only the short program or only the free skate.

Especially if the "short" program were to be replaced by a longer (3:30?) technical program and the free skate replaced by a freer artistic program. In something like that, it makes sense to have the leveled spins in the technical program and to let the "artistic" program spins be unleveled/choreographic using whatever features or other variations best showcase that individual skater's best skills.
But that proposal (that had been vaguely floated pre-pandemic) doesn't seem to be on the table at this time.

Or if the short program and long program remain more or less as is, then it could make sense for the SP to have spins that require holding standard positions and nothing else, to have an apples-to-apples comparison. But keep in mind that some skaters' bodies will never have the beautiful positions in that year's required spin type if they rotate from year to year. Such a rule would require skaters to work on mastering the basic positions to the best of their ability, but you would still see plenty of bad spins in those basic positions, without the added interest of features the skater can achieve.

But either way, I hope it's not so much a matter of increasing base values as also increasing the values of the GOEs so that judges can adequately reward the excellent spins significantly more than those that are merely above-adequate.

E.g., a spin that is very fast with some good and some not-so-good positions and moderate travel (not enough to merit a reduction, but not enough to earn the centering positive bullet point) could still earn +1 or +2. So could a slow spin that is perfectly centered with attractive position(s).

But to earn +4 it needs to be fast, centered, strong positions, and effortless (or be creative and/or enhance the music if the centering is just so-so), and to earn +5 it at least needs five of those qualities.

So ideally a +4 or +5 spin would earn a couple whole points, not just tenths of points, more than a +1 or +2 spin of the same level.

 

[YuBluByMe]

No... it's not replaced by anything formal...

….so nothing changes. All of ISU’s changes sound good in theory until the season starts. We’ve all been through this many times before.

I’m going to use Ilia’s free skate as an example, since that’s easy:

Ilia’s choreo sequence is actually the Ina Bauer he does right before the 3Lz+3A. Not the armography and Raspberry Twist at the end, although I refer to that as the choreo sequence. Pretend the 3Lz+3A is removed. Well, now that teeny little bit of extra time can be used to set up that third 4Lz!

Removing a jumping pass will only work as intended if you replace it with required steps and choreo and make the programs longer. I doubt that increasing the time limit will happen as 30 seconds were chopped just in the 2018-19 season. But then, perhaps it would. That will further illustrate my point.

 

[4everchan]

….so nothing changes. All of ISU’s changes sound good in theory until the season starts. We’ve all been through this many times before.

i agree it does look like this.. but it also depends what skaters do... The 80s music theme was a fabulous idea... if skaters had really chosen good dance music from the 80s instead of the same three rock bands.

I’m going to use Ilia’s free skate as an example, since that’s easy:

Ilia’s choreo sequence is actually the Ina Bauer he does right before the 3Lz+3A. Not the armography and Raspberry Twist at the end, although I refer to that as the choreo sequence. Pretend the 3Lz+3A is removed. Well, now that teeny little bit of extra time can be used to set up that third 4Lz!

Why give Ilia as an example when he is exceptional ? If he does set up for another quad jump (and I suspect he would put a flip instead fo have all different quads) then maybe the judges will indeed lower his PCS scores... and that would actually be very correct.. Higher points on jumps, lower points on the rest.

Removing a jumping pass will only work as intended if you replace it with required steps and choreo and make the programs longer. I doubt that increasing the time limit will happen as 30 seconds were chopped just in the 2018-19 season. But then, perhaps it would. That will further illustrate my point.

Look... i have been crying since they removed the 2nd step sequence... and even more when they added a bunch of silly requirements for level 4s. Steps sequences are by far my favourite element...

I understand your concerns. They are very valid. i mean... we have seen almost all the rules backfire so you are right to be worried...

The backloading rule that was supposed to balance programs has created this 4 + 3 layout... 4 quick jumping passes, then a bit of time for either spins and steps.. and then 3 quick jumping passes... That's what 90% of skaters do... more balanced but just as boring as a fully backloaded program.

however, the tano rule is working fine... Skaters no longer use it ad nauseam just to get a bullet point.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Quotes from a podcast with a journalist Maya Bagriantseva:

Those changes proposed by ISU will be adopted at the summer congress. There will be a shift in emphasis from jumping to choreography. They are going to remove one jump from the program for a reason. For what? I asked them straight "For what?" - "Because we are tired of skating from jump to jump. This is such a difficult athletic task that everything in between is lost. Therefore, we want to raise the cost of the other elements such as sequences and spins. So that the jumps have less weight. We won't reduce their cost, but they will eventually have less weight."

...

I have to say, there won't be a deduction for the backflip soon. The backflip will be allowed. It won't be a separated element, but there won't be a deduction, you would be able to use it as a part of your choreo sequence. It’s 100% Adam’s merit.

 

[YuBluByMe]

Why give Ilia as an example when he is exceptional ? If he does set up for another quad jump (and I suspect he would put a flip instead fo have all different quads) then maybe the judges will indeed lower his PCS scores... and that would actually be very correct.. Higher points on jumps, lower points on the rest.

I used Ilia as an example because he’s exceptional, at the top, and will be targeted the most. People generally aren’t talking about the lack of quality in Kagiyama’s or Uno’s programs. So removing a jumping pass won’t change that.

 

[4everchan]

I used Ilia as an example because he’s exceptional, at the top, and will be targeted the most. People generally aren’t talking about the lack of quality in Kagiyama’s or Uno’s programs. So removing a jumping pass won’t change that.

I don't think they want to target Ilia with this rule though. I see it differently. I see it as giving time to the programs to have more substance other than jumps and as it is said, give less weight to the jumps.

Just see it simply. let's say all jumping passes were 10 points and all other elements 5 points

7 jumps = 70 points
3 spins 1 choreo 1 step seq = 25 points

now it would be 60 points for jumps and 25 for the rest. It does give more weight to the rest... and of course, a chance for better showcasing PCS skating.

 

[YuBluByMe]

I don't think they want to target Ilia with this rule though.

I don’t think they’re targeting him, either. This rule helps him and all the other top men. To their credit, ISU has been talking about “balanced” programs for awhile. But I can’t cross my heart and say with a straight face that ISU didn’t at least have Ilia in the back of their mind when they thought this up. And you have to ask yourself: Whose programs are so imbalanced that it warrants a rule change? As fans, who are we complaining about in this regard?

I see it differently. I see it as giving time to the programs to have more substance other than jumps and as it is said, give less weight to the jumps.

Programs can have more substance without taking away from the jumps. That thinking is what I have a problem with.

Just see it simply. let's say all jumping passes were 10 points and all other elements 5 points

7 jumps = 70 points
3 spins 1 choreo 1 step seq = 25 points

now it would be 60 points for jumps and 25 for the rest. It does give more weight to the rest... and of course, a chance for better showcasing PCS skating.

60/25 is still imbalanced, though, so we’re going to be seeing more changes in 2028. Because giving Element A more weight by decreasing the weight of Element B is incorrect. That’s a handicap. Give Element A more weight by increasing the weight of Element A. That’s how this should work.