ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[Arigato]

Do they want to see even more people going for quads who can't do them?

"I know, I'll go for 6 quads. I got 2 out of the 6 clean and I only had 2 falls." But he gets a 193.00 score so he's great, right? Wrong. In the same year there was a splatfest at the GPF. One of the commentators said no one deserves to be on that podium. At one of the press conferences, a journalist basically asked the men, "What the heck is wrong with you people?" So, one of them speaks up and concocts an arrogant excuse, that what they're attempting is reeeeeeeeally, reeeeeeeeeally, difficult and all their sloppiness on the ice goes with it since 10 years ago, no one was doing what they are trying to do now. All is good, just show us love!

 

[4everchan]

so maybe it should be like diving... if you don't land your jump on your feet (if they don't enter the water hands first) then it's 0

 

[saine]

Like I’ve said before, I don’t like a lot these changes and I agree with some others that it’s way too last minute to make major changes in June that go into effect the next month (season technically starts July 1st).

However, I’d also like to see the official agenda first, since we don’t technically know if this is actually happening or not.

Deanna Stellato-Dudek commented about the proposal before Worlds, I linked the Twitter comments about it in this post. So even if the actual agenda isn't out yet, skaters are planning for it. It sounds like a headache.

 

[Skating91]

Every major decision since 2022 has been designed to target one country in one particular discipline (I won't say it could be controversial). But some of these teenagers live rent free in ISU officials heads.

I think this actually benefits those skaters when you consider how good their spins almost always are, and choreographically much more polished than many of the skaters who emphasise deep edges or attacking the ice over developed and interesting programs. Of course the judges and GOE can simply invent scores as they do now in certain instances.

It is unfair to keep changing the rules every year like this when skaters have been training and honing their craft for many years under one set of expectations and rules, then in one off season spring these enormous changes on them.

Removing one jump and one combo makes leaves women capable of quads with more energy for their quads and the quads become a greater percentage of the total jump scoring, although the free points from the sequence takes up a greater percentage of the points scored from jump elements as well.

Are many top skaters even going to use the same jump like a toe loop three times when one combo is removed? I'm no expert on this.

Petrosian would do something like:

4F
4T+2T
4T
3Lz+2A+2A
3F
3Lz

How could this be improved?

 

[4everchan]

The rule about repeating only one quad had nothing to do with "that" country.. .It was to prevent skaters from doing twice the 4t and twice the 4s. There are quite a lot of skaters who had those two jumps back then...and I do not have stats but I wouldn't be surprised if most skaters affected by this rule were Japanese, and not from 'that country". That way, skaters had to either repeat another jump (most likely the 3a) or to include more quads, learn new quads. The rule indeed favoured better quadsters because those who could master the rarer quads went for it.

This is one of the most important changes that happened in the last few years and had nothing to do with "that" country. It was before the young women from there even landed quads.

Also, the + Axel sequence does benefit a skater like Liza T. She was one of the most well-known skaters using it and losing base value over it.

One could argue the backloading rule was against a specific skater... but wouldn't be able to argue it was against the whole country. Only one skater did that, and rightfully so, the ISU decided it shouldn't happen again. This rule wasn't against a country but FOR the fans of skating. I am sorry but that program with the entire first half without jumps was so damn boring (my opinion) that the ISU was right to make sure it wouldn't happen again


The change of rule about quads in pairs : very few pairs were doing quads back then and they were Canadian, Chinese and French and I think one American team had a quad twist... Not sure again what to think about this... The skaters from "that country" doing them at one point and without much success were already retired. Actually, Trankov even said that quads in pairs were "too dangerous" or something like that... that he wouldn't throw his wife for 4 revolutions... (I believe that is a quote I read somewhere).

It's very very annoying that every other thread turns into a "that country" is a victim of the ISU. Far from it.

 

[Mathman]

I didn't think Zagitova's backloaded program was boring, although I liked Medvedeva better. Actually, I think it is kind of cool when a skater can take an ISU rule and throw it back in their face.

About "that country," what is most interesting to me is that Russia and the rest of the world both seem to be doing just fine in separation. Sure it would be better if we were all one big happy family. But Russian internal competitions and shows are thriving and at the same time no one in the outside world really misses them. Both sides are content to go on about their biusiness despite sanctions and world ploitics.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Since multiple top-level coaches have now said that they will create new season's programs with their skaters taking these "proposed" changes into account, I think the likelihood is pretty high that at least some of them will be implemented.

If one of the jump combinations in singles is removed, I wonder if skaters will still be free to choose between going for a two- or three-jump combination or a sequence. Will we get a lot of programs with -Eu-3S combos and -2A sequences now? Will it be the end of -3T and -3Lo combos in the FS?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

By the way, the proposed changes to the Zayak rule could also be interpreted as a jump type only being allowed to be repeated three times in total. So a skater doing for example two 3As could only do one more 2A (or 1A).

This would make sense if implemented in tandem with the lower amount of jumping passes and combinations proposed.

Just a few small mental experiments for the possible layouts of a few skaters with quite different current layouts, if this was to be the case:

• Kaori
  • Current jump layout: 2A, 3Lz(e), 3S, 3F+2T, 3F+3T, 2A+3T+2T, 3Lo
  • Possible layout: 2A, 3S/3Lz, 3F, 3F+3Lo/3T, 2A+3T+2T, 3Lo
• Adeliia
  • Current jump layout: 4F, 4T+2T, 4T, 3Lo, 3Lz+2A+2A, 3F+3T, 3F
  • Possible layout: 4F, 4T+3T, 4T, 3Lz, 3F+2A+2A, 3F
• Sofia Muravieva
  • Current layout:
    • One 3A: 3A+2T, 3F, 3S, 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2A+2A, 3Lz
    • Two 3A: 3A+2T, 3A, 3S, 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2A+2A, 3Lz
  • Possible layout:
    • One 3A: 3A, 3F, 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2A+2A, 3Lz
    • Two 3A: 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lo, 3F, 3Lz+3T+2A, 3Lz
• Ilia
  • Current layout: 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo, 4S, 4Lz+1Eu+3F, 4T+3T, 3Lz+3A
  • Possible layout: 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo, 4S, 4Lz+3T+2A, 4T+3T
• Yuma
  • Current layout: 4S, 4F, 4T+1Eu+3S, 3A+2A, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F
  • Possible layout: 4S, 4F, 4T+3T, 3A+3T+2A, 3A, 3Lz
• Jason
  • Current layout: 3A+2A, 3A, 3Lo, 3Lz+3T, 3F+1Eu+3S, 2A, 3F
  • Possible layout: 3A+3T, 3A, 3Lo, 3Lz, 3F+1Eu+3S, 3F

So basically, it would amount to fewer 3S, fewer +2A+2A, fewer +2T and fewer +1Eu+3S.

 

[Skating91]

4F
4T+2T
4T
3Lz+2A+2A
3F
3Lz

Using what I posted above would give a base value around 57 for the jump elements. With a 3T instead of the 2T around 60. Have a 3Lz-3T instead of the sequence then 55.

I did a rough calculation for Kaori and Isabeau using their world championships elements and base value for jump elements are around 38-39 (I included the lutz 3x for Isabeau).

Adelia's current jump elements come to a score roughly 42% higher than Kaori and Isabeau, under the new system about 44% higher. She will extend her jumping advantage. Then her spins are superior as well to Kaori or Isabeau, in fact it's somewhat of a weakness for Kaori.

I can't imagine them allowing them to repeat a quad more than two times, but Adelia has an even bigger advantage in that case.

Advantage Adelia. I'm only using Adelia as an example because she has had consistently the highest base value by a huge margin over anyone else in the world over the past year.

I don't think the ISU thought this through, much like thinking that lifting the age limit would make children stop attempting quads in juniors (in fact there have never been more children around the world attempting them ).

My proposal to protect children is to simply ban quads or triple axels at the senior and junior level for women. That is the only way you will ever stop a young girl from training or attempting ultra-c ever again. This is the only way you will protect the health of the skaters. But I'm not sure it was ever about protecting children or skaters.

To think they are going to bring back the back flip undermines any talk about protecting the children and skaters from injury. Now we'll have a bunch of 12 years olds around the world training backflips on ice. I hope the ISU has their insurance up to date for when a child breaks their neck attempting a jump encouraged by the ISU in order to improve the show.

 

[gkelly]

so maybe it should be like diving... if you don't land your jump on your feet (if they don't enter the water hands first) then it's 0

Well, it's very rare that skaters don't land first on their feet before falling. Sometimes they even establish a gliding edge for several feet before they fall.

So how would you define not landing on your feet?

 

[Mathman]

4F
4T+2T
4T
3Lz+2A+2A
3F
3Lz

She would be on track to repeat as Russian National Champion with that lay-out.

 

[4everchan]

Well, it's very rare that skaters don't land first on their feet before falling. Sometimes they even establish a gliding edge for several feet before they fall.

So how would you define not landing on your feet?

I have seen many skaters on their butts at worlds... that's what I mean : A fall. A step out or turn out or even a hand down would receive GOE deduction. Body contact on the ice other than the free leg or the hand down would be considered a failed jump and get zero points. Divers rarely get into the pool feet first too but when they don't reach the vertical, they are heavily penalized. Consistency is necessary to win. And that's why they tend to propose dives they can succeed regularly. There are too many yolo quads being done nowadays

 

[gkelly]

I have seen many skaters on their butts at worlds... that's what I mean : A fall. A step out or turn out or even a hand down would receive GOE deduction. Body contact on the ice other than the free leg or the hand down would be considered a failed jump and get zero points. Divers rarely get into the pool feet first too but when they don't reach the vertical, they are heavily penalized. Consistency is necessary to win. And that's why they tend to propose dives they can succeed regularly. There are too many yolo quads being done nowadays

And still underrotation penalties to the base value where applicable for jumps where nothing but blades and maybe hand(s) touches the ice, in addition to the GOE penalty?

But no base value and therefore no GOE if there is a fall, regardless of rotation?

So 1A<< waxel with a fall earns the exact same value (i.e., nothing) as a fully rotated 4A with a fall?

 

[4everchan]

And still underrotation penalties to the base value where applicable for jumps where nothing but blades and maybe hand(s) touches the ice, in addition to the GOE penalty?

yes

But no base value and therefore no GOE if there is a fall, regardless of rotation?

exactly. no BV

So 1A<< waxel with a fall earns the exact same value (i.e., nothing) as a fully rotated 4A with a fall?

yes. a fall is a fall. It's not just with diving but in many of the xgames sports like half pipe or big air or slopestyle... if you fall on a trick, your run doesn't count. end of it. Yes, their rules are different (they get up to three runs in some events) but a failed trick is a failed trick.

A nice 2a would be worth more than a fall on a quad or a triple. That's what I dislike with the current system. The BV value of some jumps is so high, even when the skaters falls on them...

I am too hardcore, I know... but while others fantasize about raising quads base values or complain when there is a talk about removing a jumping pass etc, I cannot remain silent : what if aiming for more beautifully skated programs, jumps success included was put in front ?

My proposal also comes with something else : if jump falls are heavily penalized, skaters WOULD have to focus on raising their earned points on steps and spins and PCS instead of always trying to raise the BV of the jump content. In the end, we would get better programs with less falls. And yes, Ilia would still jump all his quads because he is not afraid of not landing them he is consistent...

 

[Skating91]

It's the jumps that aren't fully rotated they need to look at. Brown in his free skate got a lot of free passes and Loena in the short with 2 of 3 jump elements should have got a q. I'm not sure how they miss these things, but it inflates the jump and technical elements which is what people are trying to stop. As I keep bringing up, it comes back to having a competent tech controller. For the big events maybe the ISU can invest in an extra cameras in the corners where serial offenders try to cheat their lutzes, etc. It's simple stuff.

If they don't want to reward poor jump technique, then they need to start with the basics which is the competency of the officials and adequacy of the technology. The idea of AI to analyse jumps is lol you just need an extra camera or two. Heck, even stick to the one camera but have someone with some technical competency able to rewind it and look at the jumps again in ultra slow motion.

 

[Jeanie19]

yes

exactly. no BV

yes. a fall is a fall. It's not just with diving but in many of the xgames sports like half pipe or big air or slopestyle... if you fall on a trick, your run doesn't count. end of it. Yes, their rules are different (they get up to three runs in some events) but a failed trick is a failed trick.

A nice 2a would be worth more than a fall on a quad or a triple. That's what I dislike with the current system. The BV value of some jumps is so high, even when the skaters falls on them...

I am too hardcore, I know... but while others fantasize about raising quads base values or complain when there is a talk about removing a jumping pass etc, I cannot remain silent : what if aiming for more beautifully skated programs, jumps success included was put in front ?

My proposal also comes with something else : if jump falls are heavily penalized, skaters WOULD have to focus on raising their earned points on steps and spins and PCS instead of always trying to raise the BV of the jump content. In the end, we would get better programs with less falls. And yes, Ilia would still jump all his quads because he is not afraid of not landing them he is consistent...

I think in general clean skates and elements matter. Plus we see very few salchows and loops because everyone wants flips and lutz. I'd rather see skaters skate their best jumps well, than higher valued jumps poorly. I also would like the axel to not be a requirement. If we go to 6 jumps, the axel does not need to be one. Clean beautiful programs should be the goal.

 

[icewhite]

yes

exactly. no BV

yes. a fall is a fall. It's not just with diving but in many of the xgames sports like half pipe or big air or slopestyle... if you fall on a trick, your run doesn't count. end of it. Yes, their rules are different (they get up to three runs in some events) but a failed trick is a failed trick.

A nice 2a would be worth more than a fall on a quad or a triple. That's what I dislike with the current system. The BV value of some jumps is so high, even when the skaters falls on them...

I am too hardcore, I know... but while others fantasize about raising quads base values or complain when there is a talk about removing a jumping pass etc, I cannot remain silent : what if aiming for more beautifully skated programs, jumps success included was put in front ?

My proposal also comes with something else : if jump falls are heavily penalized, skaters WOULD have to focus on raising their earned points on steps and spins and PCS instead of always trying to raise the BV of the jump content. In the end, we would get better programs with less falls. And yes, Ilia would still jump all his quads because he is not afraid of not landing them he is consistent...

I don't think it's hardcore and I agree.

 

[Mathman]

Every major decision since 2022 has been designed to target one country in one particular discipline

Nonsense. The reason that Russian skaters are under sanction is because of doping issues and the Ukraine war. Nothing to do with quads.

Is this fair? Well, it's just human nature to blame the group for the transgressions of the individual and the individual (however personally innocent) for the transgressions of the group.

 

[Mathman]

Exactly. no BV

yes. a fall is a fall.

A fall is a fall. Complete rotations are cmplete rotations. Superior height and distance are superior height and distance. Innovative steps on entry are innovative steps on entry. Good air position and musical timing... let me think now, is that good air positions and musical timing?

We can immagine a dofferent scoring philosophy, but in the meantime, for better or worse, the idea of the IJS is to reward everything good that the skater does, while penalizing everything that they do badly.

Actually, I coud go either way on this question. I think the ISU is of two (or motre) minds as well -- hence the continal tickering woth thre minutia of the rules.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, the proposed changes to the Zayak rule could also be interpreted as a jump type only being allowed to be repeated three times in total.

That has to be right. The proposal to the ISU surely is not to allow a skatyer to do 3 quad toes and 3 quad Salchows and call it a day.