Ladies figure skating is now women’s figure skating

[el henry]

Does Ted Barton sound old-fashioned, when he says "Three young ladies brought light to us all"?

I think "young lady" is a common term in English, and I would expect Ted, or anyone else, to keep using it. Given Ted's love for skating and skaters, I particularly expect him to keep using it.

I suspect that if Ted were commentating about a women's skateboarder, or a women's skier, he would say what an amazing young lady. They won't be changing the name of women's skiing to ladies' skiing as a result.

ETA: And I'm plenty old and plenty cranky. This change for me is the farthest from Newspeak that can be imagined. In fact, I see it as a refutation of Newspeak. YMMV

 

[flanker]

I think "young lady" is a common term in English, and I would expect Ted, or anyone else, to keep using it. Given Ted's love for skating and skaters, I particularly expect him to keep using it.

I suspect that if Ted were commentating about a women's skateboarder, or a women's skier, he would say what an amazing young lady. They won't be changing the name of women's skiing to ladies' skiing as a result.

ETA: And I'm plenty old and plenty cranky. This change for me is the farthest from Newspeak that can be imagined. In fact, I see it as a refutation of Newspeak. YMMV

You didn't live through it. We did. That's why seeing the increasing number of similarities in controlling mind trough language looks so frightening to us and do not understand why so many people on the west is celebrating that the Titanic is sinking while they are still on board.

 

[el henry]

You didn't live through it. We did. That's why we seeing the increasing number of similarities in controliong mind trough language looks so frightening to us and do not understand why so many people on the west is celebrating that the Titanic is sinking while they are still on board.

"Controlling" language would be continuing to use the word "Ladies" (ETA: for women when "Men" is used for men) in defiance of all logic and reason, just because old timers like me are accustomed to it.

And as far as I'm concerned, the only folks who can describe me as living in "the West" live in Asia. But I believe this is verging into politics, and future discussions should be held via PM.

 

[Funt]

LOL. I don't particularly see a problem with the term, 'Ladies,' but I do agree that the misogynistic, antiquated view of females was a big part of this more 'delicate' terminology historically. Female skaters/ athletes are anything but delicate, as we know. They are fearless, strong, and determined. So, I don't have a fundamental problem with the change in terminology.

However, the contradiction is that the sport of figure skating is overly hung up on the physical feats of wisp-thin, prepubescent females, who most certainly by no stretch of the imagination are actually fully developed and self-aware 'women.' Until the sport of figure skating actually begins to respect and to fully honor women athletes and females generally, I am taking a tongue-in-cheek, side-eye view of the politically correct, PR smell of this recent language shift. LOL. Of course, many of the female athletes in gymnastics these days are quite young too. And that sport has probably always called their female athletes 'women'.

IMO, figure skating needs to more actively and forthrightly deal with the real, pressing issues of the culture's history of abuses against females, and against males too in many documented instances. Plus, dream-hungry, and granted very talented (but still physically and emotionally maturing) Lolita-like teenyboppers are the face of the sport of figure skating the last time I looked (albeit there are also a few bad-ass, courageous women, many of whom are not fully rewarded or appreciated for their chutzpah and maturity).

you know, we had two revolutions in the twentieth century. maybe every country needs strength tests sometimes. but my god, how funny it is from the outside. lol, endeed.

Heart of a Dog 04 (eng.sub)

Heart of a Dog (Russian: СобаÑÑе ÑеÑдÑе, translit. Sobachye serdtse) is a black-and-white 1988 Soviet television film directed by Vladimir Bortko. It is base...

youtu.be

 

[LadyB]

I'm super glad they changed it. Ladies and gentleman is so outdated, it should be only used for fun, or in weird scenarios like horse racing, where women spectators wear lampshades or antlers on their heads.
It's sport, it's men and women (or boys and girls for the more casual type like me).
Now you may say 'that's funny coming from LadyB'. I've got that nickname because I'm anything but
Besides, who in their right mind wants to be addressed as a Lady, especially as a teenager! How booooooooring!
For once, good on ya, ISU!

 

[Idiote]

I would have preferred Ladies and Gentlefolks, but it's still a good change, and I hope it's only the beginning of a more global reshaping of the outdated aspects of the sport.

 

[Funt]

I would have preferred Ladies and Gentlefolks, but it's still a good change, and I hope it's only the beginning of a more global reshaping of the outdated aspects of the sport.

Yes. hopefully not too radical. https://www.smh.com.au/sport/transg...cted-for-tokyo-olympics-20210621-p582qz.htmll
although this could solve the problem of the lack of international competition in women's skating. but, of course, this is not my business, each country determines its own priorities.

 

[ManyCairns]

As others have said, the crux of the matter is that different types of terms were used -- it was ladies and men, not ladies and gentlemen, highlighting differential treatment. Moving toward egalitarian terms is a good, balanced, and fair change, the opposite of a change toward despotism/ more control.

 

[SpiffySpiders]

Since many don't seem to understand why some people wanted ladies changed to women, let me explain from the point of view of someone who was bothered by the previous international terminology.

I have to start by acknowledging how a lot of the objection is cultural. Those who live in places, or travel in social circles, where the expectations for women don't necessarily include overtly feminine roles are more apt to applaud this change. For many of us, ladies is an old-fashioned term with certain connotations attached. It puts female skaters into a graceful, polite, proper box, hinting that a female figure skater, as opposed to perhaps her skateboarding cousin, is a certain kind of young woman, one who is 'well bred' and ladylike. Adding in that the men weren't saddled with gentlemen gave an awkward feeling of harkening back to the days when men were men and women were, well, nice little ladies. And yes, it did turn off a particular demographic of fans, and potential participants, because, as noted, ladies is a loaded word that creates a mental picture of who and what is expected and accepted in the sport.

Now they need to get rid of the double standards like short program quads for the boys but not for the girls. It would also be nice to see more respect for the men who want to showcase what are seen as more traditionally female skating skills like extreme flexibly in spins. Fair is fair.

 

[LadyB]

Now they need to get rid of the double standards like short program quads for the boys but not for the girls. It would also be nice to see more respect for the men who want to showcase what are seen as more traditionally female skating skills like extreme flexibly in spins. Fair is fair.

Yep!!!

 

[Funt]

Since many don't seem to understand why some people wanted ladies changed to women, let me explain from the point of view of someone who was bothered by the previous international terminology.

I have to start by acknowledging how a lot of the objection is cultural. Those who live in places, or travel in social circles, where the expectations for women don't necessarily include overtly feminine roles are more apt to applaud this change. For many of us, ladies is an old-fashioned term with certain connotations attached. It puts female skaters into a graceful, polite, proper box, hinting that a female figure skater, as opposed to perhaps her skateboarding cousin, is a certain kind of young woman, one who is 'well bred' and ladylike. Adding in that the men weren't saddled with gentlemen gave an awkward feeling of harkening back to the days when men were men and women were, well, nice little ladies. And yes, it did turn off a particular demographic of fans, and potential participants, because, as noted, ladies is a loaded word that creates a mental picture of who and what is expected and accepted in the sport.

Now they need to get rid of the double standards like short program quads for the boys but not for the girls. It would also be nice to see more respect for the men who want to showcase what are seen as more traditionally female skating skills like extreme flexibly in spins. Fair is fair.

my last comment before bed. apparently, we put different ideas into the word "conservatism". for me it is equal responsibilities for both genders, the right to an equal education, and the right to independently plan my life. all this went to women in Russia without a struggle, simply because of the perpetual shortage of workers in the twentieth and nineteenth centuries.so I wish you success in the fight for your rights, but some traditions need to be protected, sometimes zeal and activism is inappropriate) although these are your traditions, it's up to you to decide. our ladies and gentlemen ran out in 1917, and everyone became comrades. after 1991 we have not decided what to call each other)) good night to all righteous liberals)

 

[Ziotic]

Does Ted Barton sound old-fashioned, when he says "Three young ladies brought light to us all"?

Absolutely…

 

[CoyoteChris]

Kind of a tempest in a pot of tea but interesting.

I wonder what the original thinking was in choosing "Ladies and Men"???

I am so old that I remember that it would have been disrespectful to not call a woman you were being introduced to a lady in a formal situation....not saying the class system was good or bad...but it was there. A hold over from the days of Mr. Darcy and Lizzy. You would not address the cleaning woman as a lady, even if she was more of a lady than the employer. If, however, that cleaning woman went to a quality restaurant, the waiter might say, "Would the lady prefer a booth or table?" How odd is that? There were classes in manners, too, in the middle of the last century in the US. Now in the US, there are few manners. And few signs of respect.

In Japan, there is a certain way to present a business card. People are bowed to.

I have no big issues with the change....but I wonder if someone said, "why not Male and female"???
But to me and my generation, Webster's is probably how we see the meaning of a lady.
3a: a woman of superior social position
b: a woman of refinement and gentle manners
c: WOMAN, FEMALE —often used in a courteous references...Show the lady to a seat or usually in the plural in address ladies and gentlemen

Its more generational than anything....I would kind of like to see the term Ladies return in figure skating. I also would like to see people who fill their gas tanks and then leave their car to go to the bathroom and buy a Coke so that the others behind them can not use the gas pump, but I am not gonna see that again.....

Dont get me wrong. I am a feminist in a country that doesnt even have an equal rights ammendment to its constitution. Shame on us. A woman can be a doctor or a fighter pilot and that wasnt always true in my lifetime and there are still glass ceilings. But I still like the idea of there being ladies and gentleman...people with gentle manners....

 

[el henry]

Kind of a tempest in a pot of tea but interesting.

I wonder what the original thinking was in choosing "Ladies and Men"???

I am so old that I remember that it would have been disrespectful to not call a woman you were being introduced to a lady in a formal situation....not saying the class system was good or bad...but it was there. A hold over from the days of Mr. Darcy and Lizzy. You would not address the cleaning woman as a lady, even if she was more of a lady than the employer. If, however, that cleaning woman went to a quality restaurant, the waiter might say, "Would the lady prefer a booth or table?" How odd is that? There were classes in manners, too, in the middle of the last century in the US. Now in the US, there are few manners. And few signs of respect.

In Japan, there is a certain way to present a business card. People are bowed to.

I have no big issues with the change....but I wonder if someone said, "why not Male and female"???
But to me and my generation, Webster's is probably how we see the meaning of a lady.
3a: a woman of superior social position
b: a woman of refinement and gentle manners
c: WOMAN, FEMALE —often used in a courteous references...Show the lady to a seat or usually in the plural in address ladies and gentlemen

Its more generational than anything....I would kind of like to see the term Ladies return in figure skating. I also would like to see people who fill their gas tanks and then leave their car to go to the bathroom and buy a Coke so that the others behind them can not use the gas pump, but I am not gonna see that again.....

Dont get me wrong. I am a feminist in a country that doesnt even have an equal rights ammendment to its constitution. Shame on us. A woman can be a doctor or a fighter pilot and that wasnt always true in my lifetime and there are still glass ceilings. But I still like the idea of there being ladies and gentleman...people with gentle manners....

Ladies and gentlemen is fine.

Women and men is fine.

Ladies and men and/or women and gentlemen is just odd, from a linguistic point of view. Also, especially from the "figure skating is a *sport*" point of view, if on the ice it's women's hockey and women's curling then women's figure skating makes more sense.

And even the word lady is not always a sign of respect. If someone calls "Hey lady" when I'm walking down the street, it's not because I'm so wonderfully refined. Good manners will never be out of style, no matter what adjectives we use for skating.

 

[florin]

But I will miss it a little. There is no such division in the Russian language, just "woman skater/man skater". For me, the English word "Lady" had a connotation associated with elegance and exclusivity. And personally this is how I perceive lady skaters.

 

[[email protected]]

I do think that there are many more important issues than this. In Russia there have been men and women in figure skating since the very beginning. But I have get used to "ladies" in English and I hope that using this term won't be banned on this board.

 

[el henry]

But I will miss it a little. There is no such division in the Russian language, just "woman skater/man skater". For me, the English word "Lady" had a connotation associated with elegance and exclusivity. And personally this is how I perceive lady skaters.

I understand in a way how you feel, but from the other side I think.

I wish we had "gentlemen's skating", which would be associated with the elegance, showmanship and artistry that for me represents the very best of the sport of men's figure skating. If I thought calling it gentlemen's skating would assist that, I'd be writing letters to the ISU all day and every day.

But I don't think it will, and for linguistic balance, men and women it is.

 

[Mathman]

To me, the term "young lady" is quite different. It just means that you don't wan to insult the person by calling her a child. (Althpough if you really are a child and your parent calls you "young lady," that means you are in trouble.) The masculine of "young lady" is "ypung man."

I remember when I left home at the tender age of 18 to attend a fancy-schmancy college "back east." All my life I had been a "no-account punk" -- but all of a sudden we were adddressed by professors and college administrators as "gentlemen."

 

[Mathman]

You didn't live through it. We did. That's why seeing the increasing number of similarities in controlling mind trough language looks so frightening to us...

The opposite is also a danger, though. When I was a boy we thought nothing about calling Mexicans "wetbacks" and American Indians "redskins," etc. The persistence of such terms was used and promoted for decades by powerful financial anfd political interests to suppress and demean various groups. To me, there is nothing wrong or threatening about re-evaluating the effect of language from time to time.

 

[flanker]

The opposite is also a danger, though. When I was a boy we thought nothing about calling Mexicans "wetbacks" and American Indians "redskins," etc. The persistence of such terms was used and promoted for decades by powerful financial anfd political interests to suppress and demean various groups. To me, there is nothing wrong or threatening about re-evaluating the effect of language from time to time.

Similarly to what I've written in the RLT I mean RWT now, I rather have to keep my thougts on that for myself, because truly describing the problem would inevitably include political content and commentary. It's ballancing on the edge and I've received a warning and I don't want to repeat it.