Most influential skater?

[Mathman]

I hope Lori Nichol makes it some day.

When Zamboni's fly.

http://photos.3scape.net/photo/2632/Flying_Zamboni_(Bamzoni).jpg

BTW, there are two adult hockey league teams named the Flying Zamboni's (that would be the Houston, Texas, F. Z.'s and the Bozeman, Montana, F. Z.'s -- not, however, to be confused with the Michigan Tech "Fuzzies"). This gives us a core right there for our Lori Nichol fan club (with Kwanfordwife as our leader, of course).

And with Spongebob Squarepants as our out-front P.R. guy.

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/qleonard/web/MUSIC/OTHERS/Autumn/2005VBCSpongeBobZamboni2Large.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But, should the title of "most influential skater" be limited to the skaters who merely popularized their (already existing) discipline or sport, as opposed to the ones who created the discipline (Madge Sayers) or sport (Jackson Haines)

Excellent question because most of the responses I've read seem to be favorites in the past 20 years and never saying HOW they influenced the sport. Twenty years from now there will be a new group of young posters who will have their own lists of influential skaters with no apparent reasons for their choices.

I think the question you brought up is quite valid as to what is to be influenced.

Is it the development of the sport through the years leading up to the CoP? (from Madge to Canada)

Is it the popular interest in the sport which induced so many fans both casual as well as sportsminded? (Oly hype, Movies, TV, ISU organizing)

I suppose all of this since the little Dutch Boy skated over the zeiderzee so many years ago. :yes:

Joe

 

[Kwanford Wife]

http://photos.3scape.net/photo/2632/Flying_Zamboni_(Bamzoni).jpg

BTW, there are two adult hockey league teams named the Flying Zamboni's (that would be the Houston, Texas, F. Z.'s and the Bozeman, Montana, F. Z.'s -- not, however, to be confused with the Michigan Tech "Fuzzies"). This gives us a core right there for our Lori Nichol fan club (with Kwanfordwife as our leader, of course).

And with Spongebob Squarepants as our out-front P.R. guy.

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/qleonard/web/MUSIC/OTHERS/Autumn/2005VBCSpongeBobZamboni2Large.jpg

Oh Lord, with Spongebob and myself leading the charge - poor Ms. Nichol not only won't make the list - she'll never work in this town again...

 

[Mathman]

But, should the title of "most influential skater" be limited to the skaters who merely popularized their (already existing) discipline or sport, as opposed to the ones who created the discipline (Madge Sayers) or sport (Jackson Haines)

ITA. I tried to check out the real origins of the sport, but that takes us into pre-history.

I did find this, though. The first book in which recreational ice skating was mentioned was written in the twelfth century. It says in part,

"...if the moors in Finsbury and Moorfield freeze over, children from London play. Some of the children have attached bones to their ankles, and carry well-worn sticks. They fly across the ice like birds, or well-fired arrows. Suddenly, two children will run at each other, sticks held high in the air. They then attack each other until one falls down. Often, the children injure their heads or break their arms or legs...

The origin of hockey!

In terms of influence we should also mention St. Lidwina (1380-1433), the Patron Saint of Figure Skating. She fell on the ice while skating as a girl of fifteen, broke her ribs, got gangrene in her wounds and never left her sickbed until she died forty years later. Throughout her suffering she had visions of God. People would come from miles around for her blessing. Six centuries later people still pray to her.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Excellent question because most of the responses I've read seem to be favorites in the past 20 years and never saying HOW they influenced the sport. Twenty years from now there will be a new group of young posters who will have their own lists of influential skaters with no apparent reasons for their choices.

I think the question you brought up is quite valid as to what is to be influenced.

Is it the development of the sport through the years leading up to the CoP? (from Madge to Canada)

Is it the popular interest in the sport which induced so many fans both casual as well as sportsminded? (Oly hype, Movies, TV, ISU organizing)

I suppose all of this since the little Dutch Boy skated over the zeiderzee so many years ago. :yes:

Joe

I agree with this - mainly because my list is entirely made up of skaters I personally like: the Greatests of all Time, The Firsts and the Transenders... but with the exception of the Hamel Camel with a 3axel and a Quad thrown in for good measures, I couldn't even begin to define why Kwan's 9 national titles outweigh say Surya Bonaly's nine titles... Or that Debi Thomas is more inspirational to me as black woman than Bonaly...

 

[attyfan]

... I think the question you brought up is quite valid as to what is to be influenced.

Is it the development of the sport through the years leading up to the CoP? (from Madge to Canada)

Is it the popular interest in the sport which induced so many fans both casual as well as sportsminded? (Oly hype, Movies, TV, ISU organizing)

I suppose all of this since the little Dutch Boy skated over the zeiderzee so many years ago. :yes:

Joe

I think one factor could be the influence on other skaters as well as influencing the sport. If influencing popular interest is something to be considered, though, then shouldn't Tonya Harding be a candidate for "most influential"?

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I think one factor could be the influence on other skaters as well as influencing the sport. If influencing popular interest is something to be considered, though, then shouldn't Tonya Harding be a candidate for "most influential"?

IMO - Tonya Harding is influential... first American woman to land a 3axel in competition, shattered the image of figure skaters as pretty little ice princesses (which I've always felt was disrespectful to these athletes who are strong, tough, and awesome in what they do on 1/4 inch blades on ice...) and showed that if you want it bad enough, lack of money shouldn't stand in your way - I understand that not all skaters are rich - but pre-Tonya, the impression was of pretty little rich girls with an expensive hobby... just because she threw it all away doesn't discount her impact...

 

[clairecloutier]

I think Midori Ito is one of the most influential skaters in recent history. She really changed women's skating by raising the bar technically. Before Midori, you could compete (and win) at the highest level without even having all the triple jumps (up through the Lutz) in your arsenal. (For example, Jill Trenary competed at the world level in those years without ever mastering the triple loop or triple Lutz.) But then Midori came along with her amazing jumping skills, including her ability to land 6 different triples in a program. Between that and the elimination of school figures, it really became necessary, starting in 1991, to have all the triples up to the Lutz, and in some cases triple-triples as well. So I feel like Midori was very influential in women's skating as a whole.

She was also very influential in Japanese skating. The difference in Japanese ladies' skating in the years before and after Midori's career is amazing. She, along with Yuka Sato, helped inspire and motivate a whole generation of skaters, leading to what is now surely the strongest ladies' team in the world (at least at the senior level).

Midori didn't have as many titles as Katarina Witt or Kristi Yamaguchi. However, in the end, she may have had more long-term influence on her sport than either of the OGM winners she competed against.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Midori didn't have as many titles as Katarina Witt or Kristi Yamaguchi.

Due more to a poor judging system than her own abilities and performances. She should have won the 1990 Worlds and 1988 Olympics for sure.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I think Dick Button is a strong candidate. He invented the modern technique of jumping as "spinning in the air."

There was a documentary on Button's coach Gus Lussi that at least used to be available on the skating vids forum in which Button attributed this technical approach to jumps to Lussi. The documentary included fascinating footage of Lussi, seated in a chair, diagnosed spin issues, noticing the slight hesitation or lack of form that made a spin flawed.

I disagree that pointing toes, lyricism, or even line is what makes ballet on ice. Those are technical approaches to any style. What Curry did was to recalibrate Western professional skating to classical ballet proportions and use a corps, taking away most of the pyrotechnics and flash -- big jumps, Carmen Miranda headdresses, chorus girl kick lines, etc. That influence is relatively low-grade, in that even the newer Russian shows managed by Averbukh and Plushenko consist mainly of the same stuff we see in COI, but set to Russian soupy ballads and show tunes instead of American ones; neither Averbukh nor Plushenko has capitalized on the great Soviet ice show traditions like Tarasova's Ice Theatre, which had predecessors.

But the influence (or confluence) has been seen over the years, in Lar Lubovich's Sleeping Beauty with Robin Cousins and Roz Sumners, in the Imperial Ice Stars, which tour with Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake, in the beautiful "Fallen Angels" routine created by Denis Petukhov for him, Melissa Gregory, and Johnny Weir, and in the "in-betweens" and musical choices of Lori Nichol and Sarah Kawahara.

 

[attyfan]

IMO - Tonya Harding is influential... first American woman to land a 3axel in competition, shattered the image of figure skaters as pretty little ice princesses (which I've always felt was disrespectful to these athletes who are strong, tough, and awesome in what they do on 1/4 inch blades on ice...) and showed that if you want it bad enough, lack of money shouldn't stand in your way - I understand that not all skaters are rich - but pre-Tonya, the impression was of pretty little rich girls with an expensive hobby... just because she threw it all away doesn't discount her impact...

IMO, it did shatter her impact. Instead of being a female version of Elvis Stojko and being herself, regardless of what the judges do, and using her own skills to reach a pretty impressive resume, , she effectively conceded that only the "pretty little ice princesses" could win -- at least honestly.

 

[Mathman]

One thing that is not so clear to me is how much credit to give someone who is the first to do something. Cecelia Coleridge was the first lady to do a double Salchow in 1937. But if she hadn't, then someone esle would have done it in 1942, or yet someone else in 1947.

BTW, the first lady to do any jump at all in the Olympics was a single Salchow by Teresa Weld at the 1920 summer Olympics. She received an official reprimand from the judges for performing an "unladylike element."

 

[Mathman]

I disagree that pointing toes, lyricism, or even line is what makes ballet on ice. Those are technical approaches to any style. What Curry did was to recalibrate Western professional skating to classical ballet proportions and use a corps, taking away most of the pyrotechnics and flash -- big jumps, Carmen Miranda headdresses, chorus girl kick lines, etc.

Thanks for putting that into words so well. I have to agree also, however, that this particular direction to professional skating was pretty much abandoned after Curry's death. I do not think "Corps de Ballet" when I go to watch the acrobats and hulahoop girl in COI.

Even in his amateur competitive programs (like his 1976 Olympic LP), Curry just looks like a ballet dancer. Something about the control he maintains over his whole musculature. Much different, to me, than, say, song-and-dance man Kurt Browning, whose talent is in his feet.

(Just my impressions -- not trying to pretend to be an expert on these dance forms.)

 

[Kwanford Wife]

IMO, it did shatter her impact. Instead of being a female version of Elvis Stojko and being herself, regardless of what the judges do, and using her own skills to reach a pretty impressive resume, , she effectively conceded that only the "pretty little ice princesses" could win -- at least honestly.

Excellent Point (I swear, you Kwan fans are a smart bunch )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think one factor could be the influence on other skaters as well as influencing the sport. If influencing popular interest is something to be considered, though, then shouldn't Tonya Harding be a candidate for "most influential"?

Two points:

1. Did she influence other skaters to copy her by abetting the 'fixing of a competition'? or are Americans just scandal happy?

2. The thread continues to bring up recent skaters as the only influence in figure skating. sad, imo.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I disagree that pointing toes, lyricism, or even line is what makes ballet on ice. Those are technical approaches to any style. What Curry did was to recalibrate Western professional skating to classical ballet proportions and use a corps, taking away most of the pyrotechnics and flash -- big jumps, Carmen Miranda headdresses, chorus girl kick lines, etc. That influence is relatively low-grade, in that even the newer Russian shows managed by Averbukh and Plushenko consist mainly of the same stuff we see in COI, but set to Russian soupy ballads and show tunes instead of American ones; neither Averbukh nor Plushenko has capitalized on the great Soviet ice show traditions like Tarasova's Ice Theatre, which had predecessors.

You and I know the difference between Ice Shows and Ballet and I, for one, would want to see good skating at an Ice Show and good dancing at a ballet. And moreso, I'm not into Acrobatic Skating which is heavily in vogue au courrant.

However, one poster pointed out that Curry brought ballet to figure skating which
in competition, he did add a cabriol during his free skate. One cabriol , however,
does not a ballet make, and I have not seen any skater do that since him. As for his company, he was influenced by all Dance idioms and not just ballet. He was a very special Figure skater/Choreographer/Director. Unfortunately, it's difficult to produce Ice Shows without gobs of money.

Actually Sonia's Hollywood on Ice presented quite a few Dance-like numbers with her company inluding a superficial ballet seqence. It's not knew. Am I the only one who remembers The Hollywood Ice Review?

Question: While Figure Skating borrows extensively from the Dance World, does the Dance World ever borrow from Figure Skating?

Joe

 

[attyfan]

Excellent Point (I swear, you Kwan fans are a smart bunch )

Great minds think alike!

 

[attyfan]

Two points:

1. Did she influence other skaters to copy her by abetting the 'fixing of a competition'? or are Americans just scandal happy?

2. The thread continues to bring up recent skaters as the only influence in figure skating. sad, imo.

Joe

No, I don't think Tonya did influence other skaters; she did, however, publicize the sport. My suggestion was simply that popularizing the sport is not necessarily a good basis for determining which skaters were (or were not) "most influential"

 

[Hsuhs]

http://photos.3scape.net/photo/2632/..._(Bamzoni).jpg
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/qleonard...boni2Large.jpg

The pics are cute&fun, but those are not flying zamboni's.

 

[antmanb]

I agree with this - mainly because my list is entirely made up of skaters I personally like: the Greatests of all Time, The Firsts and the Transenders... but with the exception of the Hamel Camel with a 3axel and a Quad thrown in for good measures, I couldn't even begin to define why Kwan's 9 national titles outweigh say Surya Bonaly's nine titles... Or that Debi Thomas is more inspirational to me as black woman than Bonaly...

I think Kwan's nine title mean more than Surya's because of the depth and competition in the US ladies field. I think Steven Cousins won something like 11 national championships (if not more)...and i think those are far less impressive than Kwan's because of the lack of competition on home ice for Steven. Steven in fact lost his title twice, and twice it was embarassing becuase the skater sthat beat him were not up to his level but he had typical meltdowns.

Kwan has had of Lipinski, Hughes, Cohen and Bobek to face throughout her nationals career - all of whom had and would have medal successes at Worlds and Olympics. It is not that often (outside of Russia and North America) to have two (or even three as has been the case in the US) countrymen/women landing on a wrold championship podium.

The level of competition is what makes the title worth more - if you are getting a preview of the world championships at a national championship then you know the title is worth a lot.

Ant