Nathan Chen out of worlds

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I would. It's so rarely well done the judges watch it like hawks that haven't eaten in a month.

Oh and I looked up on SkatingScores.

Zhou has landed the 4S or 4S+3T (no q/</<<) 22 times with positive GOE (as recently as his clean 4S+3Tx in the Beijing team event) - and 13 times at internationals. That hardly constitutes "rarely" well done. https://skatingscores.com/usa/men/vincent_zhou/

 

[Arigato]

Oh and I looked up on SkatingScores.

Zhou has landed the 4S or 4S+3T (no q/</<<) 22 times with positive GOE (as recently as his clean 4S+3Tx in the Beijing team event) - and 13 times at internationals. That hardly constitutes "rarely" well done. https://skatingscores.com/usa/men/vincent_zhou/

Clearly our standards differ as to what constitutes a jump well done. We already addressed that issue in prior posts. But your red herring is getting in the way of the original reason for my posting to you - boosting. Propping up scores simply because other skaters are missing makes a complete mockery of the sport. You think boosting PCS is acceptable? I do not. Then you may have considered Lance Armstrong boosting his red blood cells acceptable as well. If guys can't compete fairly - they need to get the hell off the ice.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Clearly our standards differ as to what constitutes a jump well done. We already addressed that issue in prior posts. But your red herring is getting in the way of the original reason for my posting to you - boosting. Propping up scores simply because other skaters are missing makes a complete mockery of the sport. You think boosting PCS is acceptable? I do not. Then you may have considered Lance Armstrong boosting his red blood cells acceptable as well. If guys can't compete fairly - they need to get the hell off the ice.

Lol what?! Comparing boosting PCS scores to someone boosting RBCs to cheat? That's quite the false equivalence.

Boosted PCS scores in a particular competition is "fine" as long as the same standards/generosity/strictness is applied across the field in that competition. Sure, it misrepresents what the skaters are doing; it's not big deal as long as the results are correct and the skaters aren't disillusioned as to the issues they need to fix. Any skater who gets Nationals scoring is very well aware that the judging is more generous/lenient than outside of Nationals.

For example, Chen was overscored at Nationals in the SP, his 4Z was definitely q at best (I thought it was < actually); he must have known the 4Z+3T would have actually been called q/< internationally and he cleaned it up for the Olympics where it was clearly rotated.

 

[Arigato]

Also Zhou doesn’t exist just to collect BV. What’s he supposed to do - switch to a 3S and give up tons of points just because he’s landing on the q instead of cleanly? Lol - no that’s not how you win. You might as well ask pair teams with sloppy triple twists that get negative GOE all the time to switch to a double twist.

And even with judges watching it like hawks, the worst it’s been this season is a q. Sure not ideal but Zhou’s quad salchow getting a q is a “win” - like if Asada’s lutz got a ! instead of an e. Sure you lose GOE but the base value is there and it still counts as a clean quad.

Plenty of skaters execute elements for the sake of getting points even if they can’t execute them well. There are very few skaters who can execute everything well. Zhou’s quads are borderline but the point is he does them sufficiently to get the BV which is more than several other skaters do. Not to mention if a q spoils a program or a skater for you, I mean that’s on you (the same way some people “can’t stand” to watch a skater with a flutz…. Like really? It’s literally a split second within a 4 minute program).

Who said I was specifically referring to Zhou? That's your conclusion. "Plenty of skaters execute elements for the sake of getting points even if they can't execute them well." I know this. And I have a problem with it. I was watching 2017 Worlds Men's FS last night and Kurt was commenting about Brian Orser doing quads. Yes, quads. And Kurt witnessed it. Brian never did them in competition. As you know, we had a different scoring system back then and if you had so much as a hair waving in the wrong direction, the judges hammered you. Hard. Ergo, BV skaters could not have handled the skating scene back then. Today they are coddled as pure slop can actually get rewarded. 2017 GPF was a fine example. The slop was so thick, even a journalist at the press conference commented to the three guys that maybe they should reconsider doing quads. That one of them was arrogant in claiming what "they" had done for the sport in the last 20 years made it even worse. Hey, you didn't see Tim Goebel splat or pop any of the three quads during his FS 20 years ago. They were effortless. He was called the quad god and I assure you he had speed and flow out of his landings, unlike some men today who can appear to have rigor mortis upon landing their quad.

 

[Arigato]

Lol what?! Comparing boosting PCS scores to someone boosting RBCs to cheat? That's quite the false equivalence.

It was sarcasm. But seriously, you were the one who brought up the word "boost" as in you would score someone's GOE with a Nationals boost. Why you would say such a thing still needs an explanation.

Boosted PCS scores in a particular competition is "fine" as long as the same standards/generosity/strictness is applied across the field in that competition.

That's like telling a cop no one should get written up for speeding since everyone on the road was doing it. lol.

Sure, it misrepresents what the skaters are doing; it's not big deal as long as the results are correct and the skaters aren't disillusioned as to the issues they need to fix.

Did you see 2022 U.S. Nationals? Those scores were so inflated with helium some of the heads still haven't landed.

Any skater who gets Nationals scoring is very well aware that the judging is more generous/lenient than outside of Nationals.

You sure about that? I think several got drunk on the Kool-Aid. And a coach or two.

For example, Chen was overscored at Nationals in the SP, his 4Z was definitely q at best (I thought it was < actually); he must have known the 4Z+3T would have actually been called q/< internationally and he cleaned it up for the Olympics where it was clearly rotated.

Oh, no, no, my friend. No, no. "MORE HISTORREEEEEEEEEE, NATHAN!!!!" was what one Tara Lipinski shouted on national TV with that 4Lz+3T. See, we're selling so much skating propaganda in my country, it's suddenly "history" to move an element to the second half of a short program since she thinks the American public is gullible enough to believe it. If people wonder why I prefer listening to Kurt Browning or Belinda Noonan do skating commentary, now you know.

 

[moonvine]

Good luck to Chen on whatever he chooses to do in the future. I knew that if Chen withdrew for any reason, we would see Pulkinen or even Ma at Worlds instead of Brown. Kagiyama is now the favorite for gold, but the rest of the podium is wide open. As for the American men, well, now it's time for Zhou to step the hell up and skate like his butt is on fire because he is now anchoring the national team and losing a spot can very well happen. As Pulkinen is extremely unreliable, Malinin is now skating under a different sort of pressure and he shouldn't be. Good luck to him too.

Jimmy has been more consistent. Camden happened to somehow string 2 clean performances at Nats. Oh well.

 

[Weathergal]

Jimmy has been more consistent. Camden happened to somehow string 2 clean performances at Nats. Oh well.

I'd rather see Jimmy Ma at Worlds than Camden and not just because I'm a Jimmy fan but also because I think even though Camden placed higher at Nationals, Jimmy would place better at Worlds.

I like Camden and think his skating is beautiful, but he's had so many opportunities and has rarely delivered.

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

I'd rather see Jimmy Ma at Worlds than Camden and not just because I'm a Jimmy fan but also because I think even though Camden placed higher at Nationals, Jimmy would place better at Worlds.

I like Camden and think his skating is beautiful, but he's had so many opportunities and has rarely delivered.

I agree completely! Jimmy should have been the one to go! Camden should never even have been an alternate!

 

[el henry]

I love me some Jimmy, but I also love Camden.

Jimmy has not been a model of consistency over the years either, and there is a reason that Camden has qualified for more GP spots than Jimmy.

Manifesting Nationals Camden for Worlds

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Who said I was specifically referring to Zhou? That's your conclusion. "Plenty of skaters execute elements for the sake of getting points even if they can't execute them well." I know this. And I have a problem with it. I was watching 2017 Worlds Men's FS last night and Kurt was commenting about Brian Orser doing quads. Yes, quads. And Kurt witnessed it. Brian never did them in competition. As you know, we had a different scoring system back then and if you had so much as a hair waving in the wrong direction, the judges hammered you. Hard. Ergo, BV skaters could not have handled the skating scene back then. Today they are coddled as pure slop can actually get rewarded. 2017 GPF was a fine example. The slop was so thick, even a journalist at the press conference commented to the three guys that maybe they should reconsider doing quads. That one of them was arrogant in claiming what "they" had done for the sport in the last 20 years made it even worse. Hey, you didn't see Tim Goebel splat or pop any of the three quads during his FS 20 years ago. They were effortless. He was called the quad god and I assure you he had speed and flow out of his landings, unlike some men today who can appear to have rigor mortis upon landing their quad.

Sometimes though a skater has to actually compete an element to get consistent with it. Hanyu for example wasn't consistent with his quad salchow but still rotated it, and people criticized him for just garnering points even with the splat. But then he got consistent with it and that was probably because he actually gained experience competing it.

Also the 2017 GPF was messy but still had some excellent quads that were executed. Those guys were pushing the sport with 4 or 5 quad attempts. And it wasn't quite there yet, but look at Chen today or Uno who have both done programs where they landed 4+ quads. I certainly don't fault them for being unable to hit that level of technical content perfectly from the get-go. It's all a WIP. Just like Goebel at the Olympics was brilliant but he hadn't executed that level of technical difficult many, if any, times prior to that.

Also the scoring system was lenient back then. People would fall or pop jumps in the freeskate and still get 5.8/5.9 for tech if they were top tier skaters (Yagudin doubled a jump in his Olympic 2002 FS and still got 5.9s across the board; Plushenko had a stepout and a doubled salchow and still got 5.8s and even a 5.9; one judge gave Goebel a 5.6 for tech). Orser could have risked doing a quad but what's the point if he could get 5.9/6.0 for tech with just triple axels? Of course, it would set him apart, which is why a skater like Stojko was able to win so often in spite of not the best artistry. A skater with 3 quads like Goebel under IJS would have come 2nd (minimum) at the 2002 Olympics but the system prevented that. And today, quads get you BV, but it still comes down to execution - a typical quad has a spread of 4 points with a fall to like 12-15 points if executed well, so it pays to actually be able to do them properly - especially now that everyone's doing them.

 

[moonvine]

I'd rather see Jimmy Ma at Worlds than Camden and not just because I'm a Jimmy fan but also because I think even though Camden placed higher at Nationals, Jimmy would place better at Worlds.

I like Camden and think his skating is beautiful, but he's had so many opportunities and has rarely delivered.

Agree 100 percent. Unfortunately USFS didn’t consult us. And I’ve donated tens of dollars to them! The nerve

 

[moonvine]

I love me some Jimmy, but I also love Camden.

Jimmy has not been a model of consistency over the years either, and there is a reason that Camden has qualified for more GP spots than Jimmy.

Manifesting Nationals Camden for Worlds

Jimmy has not been a model of consistency over the years, but is/was having a bit of a breakout year this season. It’s likely that Jimmy will qualify for more GP spots than Camden next year. Jimmy won…3 International medals this year I think?

At any rate best of luck to all skaters!

 

[ice coverage]

As a big fan of both Jimmy Ma and Camden, I will mention:

At 2022 Nats, Camden scored over 30 points higher than Jimmy.​

Because neither of them competed at 2021 Worlds, results from 2022 Nats carried the most weight, per USFS selection criteria for 2022 Worlds.​

​

And another big exception to Jimmy's 2021-22 consistency was Warsaw Cup.​

I hope that Jimmy will have the opportunity to compete at a future Worlds.

Meanwhile, I am very excited for Camden to be competing at this year's Worlds.

 

[corinthia]

My opinion is that I find these scenarios to be far-fetched.
According to the published USFS schedule, there basically was one continuous committee meeting to select the men's Olympic team and then the men's World and Four Continents teams. As a matter of integrity, my hope is that during the entirety of the meeting, members of the committee were not allowed to have any incoming or outgoing communication (for any reason) from/to skaters and their coaches. IMO, it would be a very slippery slope if any such communication were allowed.

(For another thing, USFS does not need one skater's permission/blessing to give another skater an assignment.)

Yeah, far fetched, I do admit. I just couldn't figure out any way they could have left Jason out of World's team with that tiered selection process, unless he had somehow turned it down...

USFS had separate selection procedures for 2022 Worlds and for 2022 Olympics.

Per the published USFS documents, the four priority groups and scoring benchmarks designated in 2022 Olympic selection procedures were not part of 2022 Worlds selection procedures.

(btw, USFS also had separate selection procedures for 2014 Worlds and 2014 Olympics, and the assignments for U.S. men were not identical for the two 2014 events either.)



My opinion is that I find these scenarios to be far-fetched.
According to the published USFS schedule, there basically was one continuous committee meeting to select the men's Olympic team and then the men's World and Four Continents teams. As a matter of integrity, my hope is that during the entirety of the meeting, members of the committee were not allowed to have any incoming or outgoing communication (for any reason) from/to skaters and their coaches. IMO, it would be a very slippery slope if any such communication were allowed.

(For another thing, USFS does not need one skater's permission/blessing to give another skater an assignment.)

And that of course answers my question... Now that I know World's selection didn't use that same tiered selection process as used for Oly's, it's all perfectly clear. Thanks so much for providing the clarity!

 

[mskater93]

Boosted PCS scores in a particular competition is "fine" as long as the same standards/generosity/strictness is applied across the field in that competition. Sure, it misrepresents what the skaters are doing; it's not big deal as long as the results are correct and the skaters aren't disillusioned as to the issues they need to fix.

Also, as the makeup of the competition changes (retirements, withdraws, banning...), the relative level of some skaters change (a skater can go from being destined for the bottom half of the top 10 to top 5-6 if the right skaters withdraw) which give their starting position changes and likely an increase in PCS. Often, that is an unconscious bias on the judges' part.

In my opinion, though, if Vincent is having a "I'm rotating my jumps at q or better" type of competition, he has really improved his spins, steps, speed, and transitions and would deserve a spot in the top 4 and higher PCS than a comp where everything gets a banana on his score box.