Should solo dance be an international discipline?

[chiyung]

I have no idea what the ISU is planning or how solo dance is practiced in other countries besides the US -- although I did hear about it in Britain around the turn of the century before it really took off in the US.

Here's the results page from this year's British Solo Ice Dance Championships:

British Solo Ice Dance Championships 2022

It looks like they do separate the events by gender. I'm not finding the rules.

Here is the results page from the recent US National Solo Dance Finals:

2022 National Solo Dance Finals

Event Results for 2022 National Solo Dance Finals

ijs.usfigureskating.org

No separation by gender. Few male skaters participating, but those that do compete in the same events as the girls/women.

The 2022 USFS rules are available on the Members Only site and are quite extensive, applying to pattern dance, variation dance, and free dance at lower levels, rhythm dance and free dance at higher levels, as well as shadow dance (two skaters performing the same steps of a pattern dance, not touching) at all levels. 2023 rules have not been published yet.

For pattern dances, "The required steps for solo dance will be the same for all competitors. Depending on the dance, the women’s, man’s or a combination of both may be used. Refer to the Pattern Dance Diagrams for the Solo Dance Steps to be skated for each dance."

Free dance elements are similar to those in partnered dance, with Edge Elements instead of lifts.

Illegal elements include jumps of more than one-half revolution, as well as some restrictions on half-revolution jumps.

Whenever the ISU does start an international circuit and publish solo dance rules, undoubtedly the US will follow the international rules for junior and senior levels, which may or may not be significantly different from what they have recently been domestically.

Thank you for sharing the British Solo Dance technical requirement document. I find it fascinating! I’m comparing the British rules to what are in the newly revised US Solo dance handbook for 2023. Some terms are different, but I think all the elements in the Rhythm Dance and Free Dance appear to be the same (I’m only looking at the junior & senior requirements). The free dance program duration for seniors appear different for the two countries.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

According to Dave Lease, (tweet now since deleted), the ISU voted to make solo dance an International discipline.

"The ISU has officially voted to make solo dance an international discipline. There will be international competitions in 2023 and there will eventually be a world championships. Kristen Fraser is co-chair of the international committee. She is also the caller for Skate America."

If this becomes the case, it's long overdue IMO. I foresee naysayers who will say that this will be even more subjective, political, and harder to judge than ice dance as it is but I don't care even if that is all true. If you want people to cultivate and then demonstrate good skating for itself then you need a platform specifically for that.

Now they just need a discipline that sits between singles and pairs without the difficult lifts and where it's feasible for someone to do both events during a season.

This will be incredibly subjective. There really needs to be elements integrated into this, but it sounds like a lot of it will be subjective/PCS-based. At least dance spins and lifts and twizzles/synchronous elements make it easier for a viewer or judge to tell apart couples in ID.. but before that it was a farce of politicking with pre-determined placements before skaters even set foot on the ice and I fear that this will just be another version of that.

But this will be highly politicized.

Good luck any country that isn't a major ISU nation from cracking the podium. A skater like Fernandez might emerge, but honestly it's their technical ability that got them there (for years Fernandez was way back in the pack and only when he got quads/consistency did he become World podium/champion material). I can't imagine a skater in solo dance being like a Misha Ge getting their dues even if they are artistically better than a lot of skaters from the major countries.

 

[mskater93]

I would have preferred mixed.

Domestic events in the US are mixed for solo dance

 

[gkelly]

This will be incredibly subjective. There really needs to be elements integrated into this, but it sounds like a lot of it will be subjective/PCS-based. At least dance spins and lifts and twizzles/synchronous elements make it easier for a viewer or judge to tell apart couples in ID.

There will be elements. There have been domestically, and the ISU rules will standardize these internationally.

According to the document chiyung linked in post 60 (which updates the US rules to match the ISU), the elements for the senior solo free dance are:
Edge elements
Two options:
1) One combination edge element plus one short edge element
Or
2) Three different short edge elements with different positions
Spin
One Spin but no more.
(may change feet, may not fly)
Step Sequence
One Foot Turn Sequence
Twizzle Series
Choreographic Elements
Three Choreographic Elements to be selected from the following:
*Choreographic Character Step
*Choreographic Sliding Movement
*Choreographic Spinning Movement
*Choreographic Twizzling Movement - (can only be performed after required Twizzles)

These are all defined in detail within the document. Aside from the choreographic elements, all are leveled.

It shouldn't be any more or less subjective than partnered dance.

At the beginning, probably less so in practice because there won't be the same kind of reputation effects at play.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There will be elements. There have been domestically, and the ISU rules will standardize these internationally.

According to the document chiyung linked in post 60 (which updates the US rules to match the ISU), the elements for the senior solo free dance are:
Edge elements
Two options:
1) One combination edge element plus one short edge element
Or
2) Three different short edge elements with different positions
Spin
One Spin but no more.
(may change feet, may not fly)
Step Sequence
One Foot Turn Sequence
Twizzle Series
Choreographic Elements
Three Choreographic Elements to be selected from the following:
*Choreographic Character Step
*Choreographic Sliding Movement
*Choreographic Spinning Movement
*Choreographic Twizzling Movement - (can only be performed after required Twizzles)

These are all defined in detail within the document. Aside from the choreographic elements, all are leveled.

It shouldn't be any more or less subjective than partnered dance.

At the beginning, probably less so in practice because there won't be the same kind of reputation effects at play.

Thanks! Okay that’s better. Except like in dance I expect the top GOE to go to prominent countries and even well performed elements will be kept in the +1/+2 range at best for lesser known countries/skaters. Would be awesome though if it was treated fairly and lesser countries that don’t have the infrastructure to get quads out of their top skaters somehow emerged in solo dance but alas I don’t trust that politics won’t be a huge factor.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks! Okay that’s better. Except like in dance I expect the top GOE to go to prominent countries and even well performed elements will be kept in the +1/+2 range at best for lesser known countries/skaters. Would be awesome though if it was treated fairly and lesser countries that don’t have the infrastructure to get quads out of their top skaters somehow emerged in solo dance but alas I don’t trust that politics won’t be a huge factor.

I expect Britain to do well in this discipline because they have had a program for a couple of decades already.

Of course, the Brits more or less invented ice dance, even if they haven't had world medal contenders for some time. YMMV whether they count as a prominent country or not.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I expect Britain to do well in this discipline because they have had a program for a couple of decades already.

Of course, the Brits more or less invented ice dance, even if they haven't had world medal contenders for some time. YMMV whether they count as a prominent country or not.

Definitely in dance Great Britain would be considered a classic and current fave with F/G, and of course the Torvill/Dean connection. I mean they could be like Finland in synchro and excel in it in spite of not being the most major country… but they definitely have a decent amount of clout still.

 

[TontoK]

I'm only mildly intrigued by this new direction.

My personal preferences hardly ever jive with the judges in the current dance discipline, so I imagine this could be rage-inducing.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Definitely in dance Great Britain would be considered a classic and current fave with F/G, and of course the Torvill/Dean connection. I mean they could be like Finland in synchro and excel in it in spite of not being the most major country… but they definitely have a decent amount of clout still.

It's worth noting that the US seem to have dictated the rules/scoring system (including BV system), which does actually look different to the British system. Altogether not sure what the result will be of that.

 

[Ares]

It may well get some traction but I don't expect it to get a higher status than synchronic figure skating.

 

[kenboy123]

I feel like solo dance is better on the floor and not on the ice, but that’s just me…

 

[TontoK]

It may well get some traction but I don't expect it to get a higher status than synchronic figure skating.

I'm not sure about that. The advantage that solo dance would have is fewer participants.

Take the Olympics, for example. Not that I expect either event to gain Olympic entry anytime soon... You could add 24 athletes and have a mixed competition... or 48 for both male and female comps, but that is 2 sychro teams? (I ask innocently, not knowing how many skaters are on a synchro team).

Additionally, solo could possibly be folded into the current WC format, and that really does carry more cachet than the synchro championships.

Of course, this is academic discussion on my part, as I'm not really that interested in either solo or synchro.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I'm not sure about that. The advantage that solo dance would have is fewer participants.

Take the Olympics, for example. Not that I expect either event to gain Olympic entry anytime soon... You could add 24 athletes and have a mixed competition... or 48 for both male and female comps, but that is 2 sychro teams? (I ask innocently, not knowing how many skaters are on a synchro team).

Additionally, solo could possibly be folded into the current WC format, and that really does carry more cachet than the synchro championships.

Of course, this is academic discussion on my part, as I'm not really that interested in either solo or synchro.

I'm not a huge solo dance fan, but there are a few dancers in GB and America that I watch videos sometimes after big events and have grown to become a "fan" of so to speak. Sometimes a few top athletes producing great performances can change an opinion.

I used to also not hold synchro in high regard. Then I watched some of the top world synchro teams and realised they had the skating skills of ice dancers, and have grown to appreciate it a lot more and realise just how amazing it can be when done well.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I just thought, if anybody wants to watch some Solo Dance, the Solo Dance competitions at the Maria Olszewska Memorial in Łódź, Poland, are on now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRwJUUKT7c

Unfortunately, you cannot pause or re-wind this stream.

The Juniors (4 girls) have just finished their Short Dances, and the Seniors (3 girls) are starting now. And then, after a resurfacing, all the Novice Solo Pattern Dance segments will be held (there is a resurfacing between the PD1 segments and the PD2 segments).

More information in the event thread:

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/92934

The Free Dances are being held tomorrow.

Sorry I didn't think to post here earlier.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just as a follow up to my post from last night, the Free Dances in the Solo Dance part of the Maria Olszewska Memorial are about to start with a combined group of 4 Junior girls and 2 Senior girls (one of the 3 Senior girls originally entered withdrew).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAh9IUwxuDg

After a resurfacing, the Solo Dance competitions will continue with the various Novice level Free Dance segments.

Hope this helps

CaroLiza_fan

 

[TallyT]

It's not, sadly, a good time for a semi-new (to the public at least) discipline to be hoping to expand, when the main ones aren't doing so well as before and the ISU have reacted by making it harder to watch at all... I don't see it taking off myself.

But I will say, if they took some lessons from the current crop of ice shows - as in what sells and what doesn't - there's a market there. And if it could get that market and therefore attract youngsters away from the current singles disciplines )especially the artistic kids whose families who can see where the judges are pushing singles), who knows? But that's very much a long-term thing.

 

[gkelly]

It's not, sadly, a good time for a semi-new (to the public at least) discipline to be hoping to expand, when the main ones aren't doing so well as before and the ISU have reacted by making it harder to watch at all... I don't see it taking off myself.

The question is not whether it will take off with viewers, but whether it will take off with participants.

That needs to happen first, and it's fine if that's all that happens. But if the discipline does reach a high standard of quality, then it might someday attract enough viewers to be worth showcasing with broadcast contracts, sponsors, etc. That's not the primary goal, though.

But I will say, if they took some lessons from the current crop of ice shows - as in what sells and what doesn't - there's a market there. And if it could get that market and therefore attract youngsters away from the current singles disciplines )especially the artistic kids whose families who can see where the judges are pushing singles), who knows? But that's very much a long-term thing.

Again, it's not a matter of marketing based on what viewers might like.

It's about what the skaters themselves like to do.

Skaters who gravitate toward solo dance tend to be less interested in or less talented at jumping than singles skaters, and more interested and talented in expressing music and similar performance qualities.

Where possible, such skaters might gravitate toward partnered dance. But the gender balance is such that not all talented girls/women who would like to compete in ice dance can find an appropriate male partner. And some boys/men might also have trouble finding an appropriate female partner, in terms of age, body type, and also location, stylistic interests, etc.

Just as most pair skaters started out as singles competitors, we may find that many ice dancers in the partnered disciplines will have started out in solo dance and teamed up later after becoming known to others in the ice dance community through their solo competitive resume, becoming old enough to leave home to find a partner, etc. The latter is already true within the US and will likely become so internationally once young skaters are able to pursue ice dance on their own in countries that may not have enough would-be dancers of both sexes at each general age level to form teams.

 

[chiyung]

The question is not whether it will take off with viewers, but whether it will take off with participants.

That needs to happen first, and it's fine if that's all that happens. But if the discipline does reach a high standard of quality, then it might someday attract enough viewers to be worth showcasing with broadcast contracts, sponsors, etc. That's not the primary goal, though.

Again, it's not a matter of marketing based on what viewers might like.

It's about what the skaters themselves like to do.

Skaters who gravitate toward solo dance tend to be less interested in or less talented at jumping than singles skaters, and more interested and talented in expressing music and similar performance qualities.

Where possible, such skaters might gravitate toward partnered dance. But the gender balance is such that not all talented girls/women who would like to compete in ice dance can find an appropriate male partner. And some boys/men might also have trouble finding an appropriate female partner, in terms of age, body type, and also location, stylistic interests, etc.

Just as most pair skaters started out as singles competitors, we may find that many ice dancers in the partnered disciplines will have started out in solo dance and teamed up later after becoming known to others in the ice dance community through their solo competitive resume, becoming old enough to leave home to find a partner, etc. The latter is already true within the US and will likely become so internationally once young skaters are able to pursue ice dance on their own in countries that may not have enough would-be dancers of both sexes at each general age level to form teams.

Having a daughter who had competed in solo dance for several years in the US, I totally agree with this view.

I believe solo ice dance in the U.S. is NOT taking any high-level freestyle skaters from singles competition. There are always a bunch of freestyle skaters who start solo dance competitions every year. At lower solo dance levels (Juvenile-Novice), it is very possible for a powerful freestyle skater to place well. However, at the higher level solo free & rhythm dance competitions, most don’t place well, at least not initially. Only after substantial skating skills training would some be able to place well at the high levels.

A bunch of solo ice dance competitors compete solo dance in hopes of finding a partner for ice dance. However, this is not the case for many. I personally know a bunch who are synchronized skaters in the U.S. who competes solo dance on the side. Synchro skaters tend to have the same skill set as needed solo ice dance. Also, the solo dance season in the U.S. does not conflict with synchronized skating season. Some dance coaches have encouraged synchronized skaters to try shadow dance with a friend from the team. Some just compete in pattern dance and some do try the solo combined dance.

I agree that the current skating level of competitive solo ice dancers is not as high as the partner ice dancers. I’m hopeful that it’ll reach that someday in the not too distant future. If it doesn’t, I think that’s ok, too. Solo dance competitions provide an opportunity for any skater to compete in dance. When a pairs freestyle couple breaks up, each could compete in singles freestyle if they don't find a partner again. Before solo dance competitions started in 2010 timeframe in the US, the girls were often left with no where to compete dance. I am grateful for the opportunity of solo dance after my daughter’s short-term dance partnership ended.

Skaters choose their disciplines for various reason. To each their own!

One of the main reason why my daughter preferred to compete in solo dance was because it offers the same independence as singles freestyle skater. Compared to partner dance, solo ice dancers have more say in when they practice, where they practice, how much to practice, etc. Less drama and a lot fewer, if any, eating disorder.

There are also more solo dance training locations than for partner dance. All the solo ice dancers we know live at home with their families, and some do drive a few hours semi-regularly for specialty coaching. For many American families including my own, this factor is very important.

Solo ice dancers in the US now couldn’t care less about viewing markets. Fortunately, many non-profit skating clubs in the US are willing to host solo dance competitions. Parents like me pay hundreds of US$ to enter them in each competition (over a thousand $ if you add travel & coaching fees). This is on par with what singles freestyle skaters/parents pay if they were to travel to a USFS National Qualifying Series competition.

A few solo ice dance competitions are livestreamed in the US. I’m glad I saw some of the dances held in Denver over the weekend of March 10-11, 2023 that was livestreamed. There may be a few more this season, but I don’t know which club will offer them.

 

[theblade]

My kid did solo dance up the the national level each year as well, a few times. It's a great way to compete when you have tested your dances and want some competitive experience. We spent thousands a year (coaching and competitions cost money!), boot-strapping our budget travel to different locations around the U.S. My kid enjoyed some nice friendships during competition, and experienced some tough times as well (skating isn't always a nice sport!). And yes, we have seen freestylers swoop in trying to earn some hardware when they were getting different results than they wanted in the freestyle competitive track. Along with a wide range of ages within a specific level. It ain't always fair, and it ain't always right. But you do your best anyways. Looking back on competitions (pre-2020), it was, on the whole, an excellent growth experience for my kid.

The recent issues with music regarding copyright infringement, and legal battles about use and broadcasting/online re-watching, is tough. It really threatens to tank awareness of figure skating in general. I don't know what the solution is on that one. But we can't let legal battles kill the sport.

Skating is very expensive. Now, more than ever, getting to the marquee U.S. Figure Skating Championships is incredibly hard.

It's great that there are other national (and some international) skating offshoots like synchro, Theatre On Ice, adult competitions and solo dance. There are more competitive choices than when I grew up skating. Vive la difference.