Should solo dance be an international discipline?

[4everchan]

My gripe with the team event is that it should be after the main event rather than before, other than that I'm fine with it.

As for Solo dance, the judging is even more subjective and random than couples dance, which is going to be the main barrier to seeing it becoming an Olympic Sport. Perhaps with ISU they will propose stricter judging standards, and this can fix it - although with the way couples dance and even free is being judged at the moment I don't see it happening. That being said, popular sports with subjective judging are stating to take off at Olympics.
This now brings to light the viewership challenge. For avid skating fans, it's a fantastic discipline - for people who understand skating skills and the concepts behind high quality turns and steps, it provides a lot of entertainment. For the casual viewer, it doesn't really fulfil a niche as such to really gain high traction - and with marketability concerns it'd be hard to get it to the Olympics. Lots of performance aspects is evident in solo figure - even if the avid viewers can spot the differences in turn/edge quality and cleanliness.

The main thing with solo dance, is that until it takes off most of the top dancers will form couples. If it takes off, this might change in the future - and it'll be interesting to see the effect over say 5 years in the standard. It is however, worth noting, that there are many circumstantial issues that effect getting a partner. Particularly the ratio of women to men.
Some people, mostly women, due to citizenship, height, body shape, location etc and a lot of things out of their control do not have the opportunity to form a partnership in ice dance - especially one to match them. This leaves lots of solo skaters with amazing skating skills unable to compete internationally. This will allow those talents a chance to internationally succeed despite circumstances working against them.


Given the fact that men get partners much easier, I'd except at the senior solo dance level to see much higher quality and depth in the womens category (in addition to on average metrics such as flexibility). The additional strength and power (a.k.a typically the male advantage) doesn't really counteract this, so I can see argument for unisex solo dance (although pattern dances would need adjustments). Especially since the top male ice dancers find it easy to get partners. Of course, if solobdance takes off and becomes a more lucrative competition this might change things in both quality and depth. I'd still expect the women's field to be much deeper.

The last point I want to make may be a little "snobby". When adding a new event to the Olympics, they need to take into account how it will effect the other events. If the quality of the skaters isn't at the level of the more developed disciplines, it might reflect poorly on the other disciplines and damage the popularity of those. I'm not a believer in this point necessarily, but rather explaining another challenge if they want an olympic pathway in the future.

The final thing I want to note is that an event doesn't have to be an Olympic event to be successful. A world championships is meant to find the best skater in the world, and this could make solo dance a successful discipline reguardless of Olympic opportunities - such that we should try be supportive of it, both as preparation for future couples, and just as importantly if not more importantly as a stand alone discipline to allow those strong skaters with circumstantial difficulty a chance to find internationally success.

I agree... with this... especially on the general appeal.... there is a reason why freestyle skiing kept moguls and aerials and dropped ballet as well as artistic swimming now being focused on the team event instead of solos

 

[crazydreamer]

This is great news. I hope that they allow some limited jumps. I like jumps, I'm just not supportive of the fact that singles skating has essentially become ice jumping in the past 10 years.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

This is great news. I hope that they allow some limited jumps. I like jumps, I'm just not supportive of the fact that singles skating has essentially become ice jumping in the past 10 years.

Jumps defeat the entire point of solo dance...

 

[Xorasy]

This is great news. I hope that they allow some limited jumps. I like jumps, I'm just not supportive of the fact that singles skating has essentially become ice jumping in the past 10 years.

I would also be okay with some limited "jumps", like leaps, split jumps, waltz jumps, and single jumps that add to the choreography. In ice dance, there are lifts which often is done as a crescendo, and obviously, you can't do a lift by yourself, so some (optional) jumps could have the same effect on the program.

 

[yesterday]

I would also be okay with some limited "jumps", like leaps, split jumps, waltz jumps, and single jumps that add to the choreography. In ice dance, there are lifts which often is done as a crescendo, and obviously, you can't do a lift by yourself, so some (optional) jumps could have the same effect on the program.

Well you can emphasize also with certain moves like an Ina Bauer, a cantilever, spread eagle,... or they could also incorporate "solo spins" in ID then. Also makes a nice accent.

 

[Xorasy]

Well you can emphasize also with certain moves like an Ina Bauer, a cantilever, spread eagle,... or they could also incorporate "solo spins" in ID then. Also makes a nice accent.

Absolutely! Those are great moves to use in a climax, and in many cases probably could be better than a jump. But I still think that simple jumps could be allowed as well. It allows for more creative control in my opinion. I'm thinking of Jason Brown's impressive split jump in his Riverdale free skate, right on the note. Doesn't add any points, but so much in feeling!

Now that I think about it, an Ina Bauer, a cantilever, and a spread eagle are moves that would highlight a bit longer sequence right? Lie you have 5+ seconds of music, it's more dramatic. A jump is shorter and could be better to use if you want the accent to be, well, short.

Allowing simple jumps could perhaps also lead to more creative jumps since it would only be choreography.

To be clear, when I'm writing "jumps", I would define that as "nothing touching the ice", so jumps in spins = jumps, small skips = jumps, etc.

Of course, if it is its own discipline then yeah, you could say that no jumps are allowed. But if you want the most aesthetically things to look at, you can argue that they should be allowed.

 

[yesterday]

Absolutely! Those are great moves to use in a climax, and in many cases probably could be better than a jump. But I still think that simple jumps could be allowed as well. It allows for more creative control in my opinion. I'm thinking of Jason Brown's impressive split jump in his Riverdale free skate, right on the note. Doesn't add any points, but so much in feeling!

Now that I think about it, an Ina Bauer, a cantilever, and a spread eagle are moves that would highlight a bit longer sequence right? Lie you have 5+ seconds of music, it's more dramatic. A jump is shorter and could be better to use if you want the accent to be, well, short.

Allowing simple jumps could perhaps also lead to more creative jumps since it would only be choreography.

To be clear, when I'm writing "jumps", I would define that as "nothing touching the ice", so jumps in spins = jumps, small skips = jumps, etc.

Of course, if it is its own discipline then yeah, you could say that no jumps are allowed. But if you want the most aesthetically things to look at, you can argue that they should be allowed.

Yeah split jumps, why not. I'd say they won't include "traditional jumps" right away - if they will start the solo dance at all. Everything higher than a wally should not be in there imho.

 

[crazydreamer]

Jumps defeat the entire point of solo dance...

I disagree. There are lifts in both dance and pairs, and it doesn’t destroy the point of dance, because they are different types. If you had like 1-2 single (ie not combo) jumps per program singles dance would still be highly distinguishable from singles skating.

By your logic, we should take step sequences and spins out of single skating.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

It's nice that solo ice dance is being given a bigger platform, but I just wish that for partnered ice dance they'd put the pattern back in seniors and require/reward more close-hold skating. Partnering (no talking about things like lifts, just the skills of skating together) is dwindling in priority and it's a shame because it's beautiful when done well and adds more choreographic possibilities.

BTW solo dance is not singles sans jumps/spins, not every singles skaters deemed 'artistic' will automatically excel (I could name some who would probably struggle but it might sound mean...). Ice dance with or without a partner is a very technical sport - minute details that you never really think about in singles matter hugely in ice dance. No doubt there's a learning curve, and a few singles skaters managed really well with the transition (e.g. Takahashi) but it's not an easy switch so a big kudos to them.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Are there existing athletes who excel in this division? I'd be curious to see how these programs look.

 

[yesterday]

Are there existing athletes who excel in this division? I'd be curious to see how these programs look.

I think there's some videos on e.g. youtube. Just seach for Solo Dance.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I disagree. There are lifts in both dance and pairs, and it doesn’t destroy the point of dance, because they are different types. If you had like 1-2 single (ie not combo) jumps per program singles dance would still be highly distinguishable from singles skating.

By your logic, we should take step sequences and spins out of single skating.

So now we're jumping on dance blades? LMAO. I mean, I guess they could all be edge jumps, but what's the point then?!

 

[theblade]

Fun fact: Yura Min passed freeskate tests in her dance blades. Then again, she is a beast.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I disagree. There are lifts in both dance and pairs, and it doesn’t destroy the point of dance, because they are different types. If you had like 1-2 single (ie not combo) jumps per program singles dance would still be highly distinguishable from singles skating.

By your logic, we should take step sequences and spins out of single skating.

Most ice dancers are never taught to jump beyond whatever they learnt in a learn-to-skate syllabus (I.e. waltz jump). Sure a split jump is good as an artistic transition, and maybe a choreographic jump is okay, but there shouldn't be any jumps (as in jumps defined in figure skating - past a single rotation), because firstly this DOES defeat the point of ice dance (which is meant to test technical skating skills, edge control etc above everything else). It just completely removes the niche that solo dance would hold as well, and disadvantages top ice dancers who never learnt how to jump (nor should have to learn). If you want jumps, free skating exists.

Step sequences in singles skating are totally different to ice dance. Most of not all free skaters on the international circuit don't do fully clean turns (including all the top skaters). They have clean entrance and exit edge, but often change edge over the turn itself, or more commonly hop the turn slightly. They are judged differently to ice dance step sequences, with different requirements as well in turns.
Step sequences in singles are about having a large quantity of turns in impressive arrangements. Ice dance it's about incorporating deep edges and cleaner turns. The way I see it, both are individual niches.

You could use my argument above for choreographic jumps being clearly different from jumps - but split jumps etc are already allowed in solo dance. They just aren't graded jumps (and IMO rightly so)

In terms of spins, spins have always been a technical part of both singles and ice dance. Historically. I don't think that's comparable to trying to add jumps to a sport that has Historically never had jumps.

 

[moonvine]

I agree that this is the most likely scenario. But, as I said in my previous post, the problem is fitting additional events into an already packed calendar. And finding willing hosts for something that is not mainstream and, hence, won't get the numbers of spectators needed to cover the costs.



The Olympics are a whole different kettle of fish. There would be plenty of time in the schedule to include all 8 categories if they got rid of that stupid and pointless Team Event. Synchronised Skating and Theatre On Ice would easily fulfil the IOC's desire to have team competitions.

And having them on the roster at the Olympics would definitely increase their profile.

As for making the Solo Dance competitions "unisex", that is a big no. It would not make for a fair competition.

CaroLiza_fan

My understanding regarding the Olympics is that they don’t want to add more events. They can have the team event because 99% of the time the athletes are already there and more aren’t being added. There’s an occasional weird exception where no pair (for example) qualified on their own but can still skate in team event.

Any new sports that are added, again to my understanding, they want to be x games type sports.

 

[4everchan]

My understanding regarding the Olympics is that they don’t want to add more events. They can have the team event because 99% of the time the athletes are already there and more aren’t being added. There’s an occasional weird exception where no pair (for example) qualified on their own but can still skate in team event.

Any new sports that are added, again to my understanding, they want to be x games type sports.

x games and/or mixed events. The IOC wants to appeal to younger people AND are seeking gender equality.
What syncrho could do is impose a minimum of males in their teams in the hope to appeal to the IOC but that is still too many athletes..
What solo ice dance would need to do is find a way to have mixed competitions... but again... it's probably impossible to judge fairly.

IMHO the ISU's best bet is the equivalent to ski/snowboard cross on skates...
Crashed Ice.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

My understanding regarding the Olympics is that they don’t want to add more events. They can have the team event because 99% of the time the athletes are already there and more aren’t being added. There’s an occasional weird exception where no pair (for example) qualified on their own but can still skate in team event.

You are correct. The cost of an Olympic Games is getting out of hand, which is putting cities off hosting. So the IOC wants to cut down the costs, and the approach they are taking is to try to cut down on the number of people that take part. Hence why the number of skaters that qualify for the Olympics has been gradually reducing.

Instead of cutting back on participants, they would be better off trying to make the Games more cost effective. Go to places that already have some facilities in place, rather than building everything from scratch. Get rid of the elaborate shows in the Opening and Closing Ceremonies, and go back to basics by just having the athletes parade and the flame being lit.

It's not fair that athletes miss out on the opportunity just because the costs have got too high.

Any new sports that are added, again to my understanding, they want to be x games type sports.

Funny you should say that, because I have long wished that the IOC would take over the X Games. That way the extreme sports can get their Olympic status there, and the main Games can be kept for the more traditional sports, which can then be expanded to include all their parts. Because I am getting fed up with parts of long-time Olympic sports getting left out, or dropped in favour of other things.

As you can probably guess, I am not a fan of extreme sports.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

You are correct. The cost of an Olympic Games is getting out of hand, which is putting cities off hosting. So the IOC wants to cut down the costs, and the approach they are taking is to try to cut down on the number of people that take part. Hence why the number of skaters that qualify for the Olympics has been gradually reducing.

Instead of cutting back on participants, they would be better off trying to make the Games more cost effective. Go to places that already have some facilities in place, rather than building everything from scratch. Get rid of the elaborate shows in the Opening and Closing Ceremonies, and go back to basics by just having the athletes parade and the flame being lit.

It's not fair that athletes miss out on the opportunity just because the costs have got too high.



Funny you should say that, because I have long wished that the IOC would take over the X Games. That way the extreme sports can get their Olympic status there, and the main Games can be kept for the more traditional sports, which can then be expanded to include all their parts. Because I am getting fed up with parts of long-time Olympic sports getting left out, or dropped in favour of other things.

As you can probably guess, I am not a fan of extreme sports.

CaroLiza_fan

Figure skating is an extreme sport... just like gymnastics and diving... it just started earlier... i don't see much difference really with jumping on the ice or diving from a 10 m height with snowboard big air... really.

 

[skatesofgold]

You are correct. The cost of an Olympic Games is getting out of hand, which is putting cities off hosting. So the IOC wants to cut down the costs, and the approach they are taking is to try to cut down on the number of people that take part. Hence why the number of skaters that qualify for the Olympics has been gradually reducing.

Instead of cutting back on participants, they would be better off trying to make the Games more cost effective. Go to places that already have some facilities in place, rather than building everything from scratch. Get rid of the elaborate shows in the Opening and Closing Ceremonies, and go back to basics by just having the athletes parade and the flame being lit.

It's not fair that athletes miss out on the opportunity just because the costs have got too high.



Funny you should say that, because I have long wished that the IOC would take over the X Games. That way the extreme sports can get their Olympic status there, and the main Games can be kept for the more traditional sports, which can then be expanded to include all their parts. Because I am getting fed up with parts of long-time Olympic sports getting left out, or dropped in favour of other things.

As you can probably guess, I am not a fan of extreme sports.

CaroLiza_fan

I'm a millennial and I don't appreciate extreme sports getting added at the expense of traditional sports. I'm not sure it's having the desired effect either with the viewing ratings of the Olympics going down. It's pretty obvious to me that NBC doesn't give a crap about traditional sports.

 

[moonvine]

I'm a millennial and I don't appreciate extreme sports getting added at the expense of traditional sports. I'm not sure it's having the desired effect either with the viewing ratings of the Olympics going down. It's pretty obvious to me that NBC doesn't give a crap about traditional sports.

NBC's Olympic coverage has traditionally been terrible. There have actually been news stories about how many people complain about NBC's coverage. They wanted more sports and less fluff. NBC has always responded that they have done research, that the majority of people who watch the Olympics are female, and that women want more fluff and less sports. It's gotten to where the coverage is ok with me because I watch the International feed and the only time I watch the NBC broadcast is to quickly check how they called a skate. ABC did a much better job IMHO and there was even one Olympics covered by CBS that wasn't bad.