Skaters who have done well only at senior level without success at juniors?

[eppen]

All the Canadian women mentioned by 4everchan above were actually quite ok in their junior careers. Madeline's international debut has happened at a bad time considering junior competitions... But all have medaled at least in nationals, some won smaller international competitions (Schizas managed that before being hit by the pandemic). Nothing out of the ordinary compared what has been seen before. They just took maybe a little bit more time to get their senior careers going, maybe for various reasons.

I have seen foreign skaters participate in various national competitons, even nationals, usually if they have been training in the country (many of these in Russia), but Lucinda Ruh in Japan sounds totally exotic. I wonder why she was there?

Figure skating is a sport which is usually started very young and if I have understood correctly the ones who are promising/good are kind of easy to spot quite quickly. And this does seem to generate success in their junior careers.

E

 

[4everchan]

All the Canadian women mentioned by 4everchan above were actually quite ok in their junior careers. Madeline's international debut has happened at a bad time considering junior competitions... But all have medaled at least in nationals, some won smaller international competitions (Schizas managed that before being hit by the pandemic). Nothing out of the ordinary compared what has been seen before. They just took maybe a little bit more time to get their senior careers going, maybe for various reasons.

I have seen foreign skaters participate in various national competitons, even nationals, usually if they have been training in the country (many of these in Russia), but Lucinda Ruh in Japan sounds totally exotic. I wonder why she was there?

Figure skating is a sport which is usually started very young and if I have understood correctly the ones who are promising/good are kind of easy to spot quite quickly. And this does seem to generate success in their junior careers.

E

I mentioned the Canadian women not because I believed they were not great junior skaters... but to show that their trajectory is very different from juniors from other countries... yes, they did okay... yes they were on the radar at nationals in a very shallow field... but they were not winning JGP events with big scores and usually making it to JGPF or winning medals at junior worlds... I have no recollection of the last Canadian woman making it to the podium at junior worlds... wow... must be a long time ago compared to the men who have done so regularly and recently. My point here is that the trajectory of Canadian women is shaped differently than that of other countries or that even of other disciplines within Canada.... Kaiya is truly exceptional for juniors in Canada and still cannot compete with the Russian juniors and is not really at an advantage against most of the top Japanese, Korean and American juniors either. We will see what happens to her because she is injured but the feeling here is that she was going to switch to seniors for nationals and from then on... She has not been named to compete at Junior worlds... (probably still injured)...

To summarize : Canadian junior women probably have better opportunities to move to seniors nationally younger and establish themselves on the senior scene gradually rather than trying to aim for a top 5 in JGPs which is almost impossible for them to achieve. With the years, better funding on the national team, better opportunities (challengers, SC host spot, etc) some will develop to achieve quite respectable status as senior athletes, the last most famous ones all reaching top 5 or better at worlds (Rochette, Phaneuf, Daleman and Osmond) ... or in the case of Alaine, at least a GP medal (something Daleman hasn't even managed). We will see if Madeline manages some successes... and if Kaiya changes that trajectory....

Canadian coaches/commentators have talked about this reality for our athletes. They have also mentioned that it will take about two full olympic cycles to see a difference in how much younger our skaters will be acquiring harder tricks. I find the Canadian case interesting of course because i follow these athletes being Canadian myself but also because within the same federation, we see a completely different pattern shaping up for ice dance and men... where successes at the junior level is not uncommon at all...

 

[Lzbee]

The idea was after all to find someone who really had not excelled at all in juniors at national or international scenes.

I'm curious as to why national success would discount someone? Surely this means you are only considering big feds as some tiny feds might have national champions who may not even get world's minimums? For example, Loena won junior nationals in 2014 but her score there would've put her second to last (11th) at the corresponding US junior nationals.

 

[SnowWhite]

For ice dance, a few examples:

Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen

• Nikolaj - with 3 different partners, he finished 21st, 24th and 17th at Jr Worlds. His best JGP finish was 9th. He did win Danish Jr Nationals, but he and his partner were the only competitors. He's been much more successful as a senior with Laurence, winning GP medals and finishing as high as 8th at Worlds.
• Laurence - her best finish at Canadian Nationals in junior was 6th, and she did only one JGP, placing 11th. She had more more international success after teaming up with Nikolaj

Fear/Gibson

• Lewis - didn't compete as a junior in dance at all
• Lilah - she did win novice Nationals and get 3rd at junior Nationals with her previous partner, but they got 15th at both JGPs they did, and 10th and 11th at the other two international Jr events they did. In seniors they've been as high as 7th at Worlds

Smart/Diaz

• Adrian - placed 32nd, 16th and 9th at JW with Sara Hurtado. She's a good example too. They never came higher than 5th at a JGP. In seniors with Olivia, he's won GP medals and been 4th at Europeans
• Olivia - was 17th, 22nd and 10th at JW with her old partner. They had a couple junior international medals, but their best JGP result was 7th. She's mad much more success with Adrian as a senior

 

[treblemakerem]

I'm starting to think that champions can't come out of nowhere. Everyone medaled at least at junior nats. Though there are some who skate in juniors till the "old age" of 17/18yo.

I don’t really understand the criteria here. How would someone get international assignments without being somewhat decent at junior nationals? Nationals are all different levels depending on the country so being successful there isn’t the same as successful internationally.

 

[Amei]

I don’t really understand the criteria here. How would someone get international assignments without being somewhat decent at junior nationals? Nationals are all different levels depending on the country so being successful there isn’t the same as successful internationally.

Decent results at lower level competitions prior to Junior nationals and/or being a very promising skater. See Veronika Zhilina as an example - last year she placed second in her Russian cup events, 8th at the final and 12th at Nationals - she still got a Junior grand prix assignment (which she did win) and then placed 12th again this year at Nationals. I made the remark in the Russian ladies thread though - does her continued poor showings at all Russian competitions impact her international assignments, its not like Russia is lacking for talented Russian ladies.

 

[el henry]

I don’t really understand the criteria here. How would someone get international assignments without being somewhat decent at junior nationals? Nationals are all different levels depending on the country so being successful there isn’t the same as successful internationally.

I agree with what I think you are saying.

Medaling at Junior Nationals is not "success" as I would define it for these purposes. It may be that the Russian Junior Nats is at a high level, I wouldn't know, I don't watch them. I have no reason to doubt it. But it certainly cannot be generalized to all Nationals.

Excluding skaters who skated in a certain time period seems arbitrary to me, and in my own definition of "Who was not successful", I would not do that.

For me, a skater who has not internationally medaled as a junior, yet medaled internationally as a senior, whatever the era, fits the definition. Learning of these skaters in this thread has interesting to me, and I hope to learn of more.

 

[yume]

I don’t really understand the criteria here. How would someone get international assignments without being somewhat decent at junior nationals? Nationals are all different levels depending on the country so being successful there isn’t the same as successful internationally.

An example, japanese junior nationals. Juniors don't get JWC assignements on the basis of junior nats results, but on the basis of senior nats results (funny how juniors are judged with senior programs). The only exception is for the junior gold medalist who automatically get a spot.

That's why this year, there is a skater like Rinka Watanabe who is sent to JWC. Girl is 19yo, never finished on junior nats podium, never got a JGP assignement i think. She already turned senior domestically. I know her because i pay attention to japanese domestic comps and she won some of these comps. This season she did well at seniors nats, finishing 6th. So fed gave her a JWC spot (she's 19yo but she's born in july so she's eligible).

That's a case of someone who never medaled at junior nats but got an international assignement.

 

[eppen]

The idea and criteria is from the original poster (TT_Fin) and inspired by the thread on the process on turning from junior to senior, especially how successful juniors fail to make it in seniors.

There is a thread about why it is so hard to turn from juniors to seniors, but how about opposite way? Is there any skaters, who have never got noteworthy success at juniors not even at national level, but got medals or maybe won nationals and maybe got also international success at seniors?

Not a whole lot in general, as has so far been seen... But theoretically it is possible, but apparently just very uncommon. A skater can be not very good as a junior, not make it to medals even at nationals (whatever the federation), but then find their mojo somehow and make it good in seniors. The reasons vary but there are cases

The current junior scene started to develop really only in the 1990s, so it is a bit difficult to compare what careers before and after. Also, the documentation for the pre 1990s skaters tends to be a bit sketchy when it comes to their early careers. National success, both junior and senior, is more commonly recorded somehow for earlier skaters.

I have collected info on single skaters who participated in senior worlds since 1947 and I have about 600 women and 500 men in my lists. Among the 288 women who started their senior careers before 1993-4 season, there are 7 with mentions of international junior competitions and the first is from 1975. 37 have info on national junior careers. Almost exacatly the same figures and decades for men. The number of later skaters (senior career start 1993-4 or later) is almost as big (263) and for that, there is info for about half of them (137) on national level junior careers and for majority on international ones (204). The same for guys.

So, to make the comparison btw then and now, you need to take nationals into consideration.

I did a bit of work on the junior competitions mentioned in connection with pre-1990s skaters and it was mostly nationals. There were some European junior competitions like Grand Prize SNP and Blue Swords that were organized already earlier, Piruetten and Ukrainian Souvenir are also possible candidates in that, but it is a little unclear when their junior segments were started. EYOF, Gardena, and Triglav Trophy began in the early 1990s. The JGP series was formed in 1997 and incorporated some of these old competitions in its schedule. But because the references were almost exclusively to these few competitions, I started to wonder whether it is only because information has been available for them.

Rinka Watanabe is a cool case, though. If you look at her results (Rink Results has the Japanese scene covered incredibly well), you can easily see that she has been impressively successful in Japanese regional and sectional circuits - these are higher level than nationals are in many skating countries... Easily qualifies to nationals, where she faces a pretty stiff competition and cannot medal. However, she has won and medaled in minor international junior competitions since 2018 with the same kind of results that she has not excelled with in Japan.

A refinement in the original methodology of this review might be to take federation into account. If the skater comes from a small federation, national success is not necessarily very good indication of how good the skater is. The big four have a bigger national scene and thus good results there can be more informative of the skaters potential. The international scene varies also - Rinka could win a minor international but not medal in nationals. The JGP is already a step up, JWC another rung in the ladder. But whoever qualifies for these is probably already somewhat successful at national level - a selection process of some kind is used for those assignments. How to do this refinement gets difficult quickly

In my comments, I have just applied the original idea and tried to take into account the quality of information available...

E

 

[4everchan]

you know that some skaters in Canada, like Kevin Reynolds or Elladj Balde have won medals at various international level of competitions like challengers, GP or even 4CC without ever winning a national title.. As a matter of fact, Kevin is a 4CC champion and Olympic silver medal winner in the team event and has never won Canadian senior championships. Patrick Chan won Skate Canada before winning seniors nationals. Keegan Messing was 6th in the world also before winning a National title in Canada. I liked the idea of this thread, and without speaking for the OP, it does achieve creating interesting conversation about skaters who have not followed the "more usual path".

 

[yume]

For me, a skater who has not internationally medaled as a junior, yet medaled internationally as a senior, whatever the era, fits the definition. Learning of these skaters in this thread has interesting to me, and I hope to learn of more.

Since not everyone follow every country junior nats nor value their medals, i guess it's correct. But by internationally, you mean all international events or just JGP, JGPF and JWC?

Because it's pretty much easy to win all the senior B events in the junior level.

 

[AxelLover]

Alexei Bychenko.

 

[Lzbee]

There is a thread about why it is so hard to turn from juniors to seniors, but how about opposite way? Is there any skaters, who have never got noteworthy success at juniors not even at national level, but got medals or maybe won nationals and maybe got also international success at seniors?

I wrote in some thread before Emmi P. has not taken part in juniors at nationals, but I checked it is not true, because she has got one silver at juniors. It is 13/14 which is not visible on her ISU profile.

I finally found one that fits all the criteria! Alexia Paganini has a 5th place at US junior nationals according to her ISU profile has a 6th place in JGP.

She is now 4 time Swiss national champion and was 4th at 2020 Euros, just behind the Russian prodigies. She also has a silver and a bronze at Nebelhorn.

Note that she switched countries from a big fed in juniors to a much smaller fed for her senior results.

Edit: I gave wrong info...

 

[el henry]

Since not everyone follow every country junior nats nor value their medals, i guess it's correct. But by internationally, you mean all international events or just JGP, JGPF and JWC?

Because it's pretty much easy to win all the senior B events in the junior level.

I would agree with this, as an apples to apples comparison. if a skater never medaled at JGP, but then medaled at the senior GP, they did not have success as a Junior but had success as a Senior.

There are some exceptions, I do not think medaling at Senior Bs is all that easy in certain fields, but as a general principle, yes.

 

[Amei]

Mariah Bell as a junior skater didn't really have a spectacular career, she only placed second at Jr nationals, she did win 2 different sectionals and no JGP wins, no finals or Worlds appearances.

 

[lariko]

The idea and criteria is from the original poster (TT_Fin) and inspired by the thread on the process on turning from junior to senior, especially how successful juniors fail to make it in seniors.


Not a whole lot in general, as has so far been seen... But theoretically it is possible, but apparently just very uncommon. A skater can be not very good as a junior, not make it to medals even at nationals (whatever the federation), but then find their mojo somehow and make it good in seniors. The reasons vary but there are cases

The current junior scene started to develop really only in the 1990s, so it is a bit difficult to compare what careers before and after. Also, the documentation for the pre 1990s skaters tends to be a bit sketchy when it comes to their early careers. National success, both junior and senior, is more commonly recorded somehow for earlier skaters.

I have collected info on single skaters who participated in senior worlds since 1947 and I have about 600 women and 500 men in my lists. Among the 288 women who started their senior careers before 1993-4 season, there are 7 with mentions of international junior competitions and the first is from 1975. 37 have info on national junior careers. Almost exacatly the same figures and decades for men. The number of later skaters (senior career start 1993-4 or later) is almost as big (263) and for that, there is info for about half of them (137) on national level junior careers and for majority on international ones (204). The same for guys.

So, to make the comparison btw then and now, you need to take nationals into consideration.

I did a bit of work on the junior competitions mentioned in connection with pre-1990s skaters and it was mostly nationals. There were some European junior competitions like Grand Prize SNP and Blue Swords that were organized already earlier, Piruetten and Ukrainian Souvenir are also possible candidates in that, but it is a little unclear when their junior segments were started. EYOF, Gardena, and Triglav Trophy began in the early 1990s. The JGP series was formed in 1997 and incorporated some of these old competitions in its schedule. But because the references were almost exclusively to these few competitions, I started to wonder whether it is only because information has been available for them.

Rinka Watanabe is a cool case, though. If you look at her results (Rink Results has the Japanese scene covered incredibly well), you can easily see that she has been impressively successful in Japanese regional and sectional circuits - these are higher level than nationals are in many skating countries... Easily qualifies to nationals, where she faces a pretty stiff competition and cannot medal. However, she has won and medaled in minor international junior competitions since 2018 with the same kind of results that she has not excelled with in Japan.

A refinement in the original methodology of this review might be to take federation into account. If the skater comes from a small federation, national success is not necessarily very good indication of how good the skater is. The big four have a bigger national scene and thus good results there can be more informative of the skaters potential. The international scene varies also - Rinka could win a minor international but not medal in nationals. The JGP is already a step up, JWC another rung in the ladder. But whoever qualifies for these is probably already somewhat successful at national level - a selection process of some kind is used for those assignments. How to do this refinement gets difficult quickly

In my comments, I have just applied the original idea and tried to take into account the quality of information available...

E

How's that website/blog coming?

 

[eppen]

How's that website/blog coming?

With this kind of positive pressure, I will get it done sooner rather than later! Unfortunately other things in life get in the way of my favorite hobby...

E

 

[lariko]

With this kind of positive pressure, I will get it done sooner rather than later! Unfortunately other things in life get in the way of my favorite hobby...

E

I just love your posts, and would be spending hours on your website, despite out cardinal disagreement on the civil servant on ice.

 

[eppen]

I just love your posts, and would be spending hours on your website, despite out cardinal disagreement on the civil servant on ice.

It would be soooooo boring if we all just agreed on all the skaters, right?

E

 

[yume]

There are some exceptions, I do not think medaling at Senior Bs is all that easy in certain fields, but as a general principle, yes.

Usually the battle is only between 2 or 3 girls. The others are far behind. IMO, the senior Bs with the best field in juniors and advanced novices are usually bavarian open, challenge cup and Asian open before corona (Japan and Korea, sometimes USA were actually sending their best juniors and novices at Asian open).
Lately at bavarian open, Hana Yoshida finished 10 points ahead of the silver medalist Rinka Watanabe. But Rinka finished almost 30 points above the bronze medalist. There wasn't competition.