That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

[Osmond4gold]

Is this an actual thing, though? Skaters like Osmond and Kostner are incredibly inconsistent yet still have had their PCS going higher and higher.

Personally, I think it's much more fair to award consistency than to continue giving the skater's failed performances higher and higher PCS and when they finally skate clean give them a massive additional PCS boost. How is that any better an alternative?

Personally, I don't think that the American Skaters' low PCS has anything to do with their consistency and more to do with them just not being that good PCS-wise in the eyes of the international judging panels. Inconsistency has never stopped them from giving high PCS. If I were to pinpoint clear issues, it'd be in skating skills and transitions. It's like the focus when it comes to PCS categories is entirely in the performance. Perhaps this is an influence of Ashley Wagner but today's PCS scoring is in my eyes instead heading towards a direction where they value transitions more and more. Only Bradie's program design seems to grasp this and that's something I commend her for. But the solution isn't complaining, it's adapting. Adapting to the sport rather than wanting the sport to adapt to your skaters' strengths...

To be fair, not many completed 2 error free programs all season. Kaetlyn and Carolina had their ups and downs like everyone else this season.

So that I understand, what is your beef with Kaetlyn Osmond, Shayuki? Two nights ago you slammed her on GS, by calling her 'Kaetlyn Jenner'? Are you feeling that insecure to feel the need to put down others to support your own?

Would't it be great Shayuki, if one could say, "good luck to all skaters and may they all perform a personal best". Just a thought.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Except she would have, exactly as per the numbers. A +2 GOE 3Lutz+3Toe and 3Loop, and even just a tiny PCS increase for a clean performance, would have put her above Sakamoto and Kostner.

She didn't make two errors either in terms of the program, she made one, messing up the opening jump. Doing a Triple-Double later on doesn't inherently make choreography or interpretation worse, it just lowers your technical score because of not having the Triple-Triple. It's not as if a 3-3 is necessary to have one of the best programs or performances in the first place, as seen by Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen having some of the best SP's ever and only ever going for Triple-Double combos there.

When has Karen ever hit a +2 GOE 3Z+3T?! I mean, heck, why not say +3's across the board if we're going to hypothesize on things that haven't ever happened?

She made two errors in terms of technical elements though. A 3Z was messed up, and a 3-2 lends itself to less difficulty. Not to mention, she should have been marked for lesser transitions, given she took out the inside spread eagle after the 3L in order to do the 2T. And that is a fact that she had to give up that transition.

I'm not even going to get into trying to compare Karen Chen to Michelle Kwan/Sasha Cohen... but on the flip side, Karen has had to compete in an era where a 3-3 is the standard for senior ladies, the same way a quad is in men's.

Let's not pretend that a program with a 3X+2X, 3X and 2A should be marked the same as 3X+3X, 3X and 2A.

 

[Shayuki]

To be fair, not many completed 2 error free programs all season. Kaetlyn and Carolina had their ups and downs like everyone else this season.

So that I understand, what is your beef with Kaetlyn Osmond, Shayuki? Two nights ago you slammed her on GS, by calling her 'Kaetlyn Jenner'? Are you feeling that insecure to feel the need to put down others to support your own?

Would't it be great Shayuki, if one could say, "good luck to all skaters and may they all perform a personal best". Just a thought.

Did you even read my post? I just said that these skaters are incosistent(That they are), using their high PCS as a counter-argument to consistency being required for high PCS(They are the 2 skaters who score the most PCS without being consistent, hence them being the examples I picked). How can you make this about Osmond? I also have never called her that unless it was some autocorrect occurance or a typo, or a honest mistake.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When has Karen ever hit a +2 GOE 3Z+3T?!

2017 Worlds LP, 2017 Nationals, 2016 Cup of China, 2016 NHK.

Not to mention, she should have been marked for lesser transitions, given she took out the inside spread eagle after the 3L in order to do the 2T.

She was marked lower. Hence only getting 42-ish PCS when a perfect performance from her deserves to get PCS on the level of anyone else these days. You admonish her getting a personal best score when the problem is she was actually underscored in the past.

I'm not even going to get into trying to compare Karen Chen to Michelle Kwan/Sasha Cohen... but on the flip side, Karen has to compete in an era where a 3-3 is the standard for senior ladies, the same way a quad is in men's.

If you're not going to get into, then you're not judging correctly. Kwan had programs without a 3-3 that deserve to score higher for performance/choreography/interpretation than ANY Ladies SP these days. Also note the PCS Jason Brown gets for programs without a quad. Difficult technical content can potentially add excitement to a performance, but it's very possible to have the best PCS ever with considerably lower technical content. The skating Brian Orser and Brian Boitano did in 1988 deserves higher PCS than most guys these days, despite having no quads and not even a Triple-Triple in their SP's.

 

[Metis]

I have a different theory regarding US ladies: The US hasn’t gotten noticeably worse. Rather the rest of the World has caught up and in several cases, has passed by the US.

I disagree on “noticeably worse,” but I bolded that second sentence because that’s very much missing from most analyses of the current state of skating. I could tl;dr on why advantages like those the US women enjoyed through its “peak” in women’s skating were unlikely to last and matched by weaknesses elsewhere, but I’m going to try to save my teal deer for only one thread. [emoji23]

The US was very good at finding and training high-level skaters for a long time, which was part of its competitive lead. I wasn’t a fan of Sarah Hughes, but when someone of her caliber is the B-Team of the Olympic squad, you’re ahead of the game. But that’s exactly the kind of advantage that is comparatively easy for other nations to reduce or eliminate — or to squander by complacency. This happens all the time in various sports and competitive activities: there’s someone who starts out on another level, but as others learn the nuances of the (meta)game, their edge over the entire field dramatically narrows.

I also don’t think the USFSA ever fully and completely recovered from the elimination of 6.0 and emphasizes safe programs to an extent. It can work rarely (Lysacek - 2010) but that doesn’t really win under IJS anymore. Our most high profile coach Frank Carroll was big on not allowing his students to place a jump in a program unless it had a 90 percent success rate. Trapped in 6.0 mentality

Arguably, the US squandered the talent it did have, which was an unforced error and helped accelerate the “decline” narrative. Weir was arguably a better skater than Lysacek and certainly did more to boost the sport’s profile — especially in the key age range (young people). I remember Weir blowing up the internet before Twitter was a part of daily life and the 40+ demo knew GIF was pronounced with a hard “g.” I don’t like Weir as a commentator, but as a skater, he was treated as though he was devoid of any technical skill, never practiced, etc., and that still stings.

Cohen was caught in the scoring transition, and also trapped by bad media narratives (inconsistent, crazy/drama queen, “back to the coach she fired — only Sasha!”). After Kwan, whose personality was pitched as calm and serene (and whose programs reinforced that), Sasha was perfect as the “crazy” one, right down to the name. She and Weir were defined almost exclusively by their personalities, not their skills, which may have been good for the media but told anyone watching nothing about skating — except, in the case of Cohen, that flexibility is good? What a waste.

Meissner... I knew of her in 2000, actually, as a friend of mine skates. Another skater who makes me wonder what might have been: what if she’d been born just a bit later and/or spiral sequences weren’t as important to the US audience? What if she’d had a better “narrative”? Despite being an incomplete skater (her spin positions are ... awkward, spirals have bad edging, etc.), I think she’s undervalued in comparison to the next wave, especially on the technical side, where she really did show that she understood what was coming. But she wasn’t a “pretty” skater, and that’s not marketable.

And then Mao Asada and Yuna Kim showed up, and it was clear they came to play. At this point, the US could have changed course and started correcting for its errors, but it didn’t.

I was completely tuned out by the time of Gold and Wagner, and leaving aside the eating disorder issues (I’m a recovered anoretic — I’m well out of the woods after a decade of crazy, so here’s hoping Gold can make it fully into recovery as well), Gold... whatever her skills, I cannot think of a skater more trapped in the 6.0 system in terms of choreo, costume, music, etc. She was shoved into the Ice Princess box and then they taped the lid shut. And I doubt it helped her competitive chances. You had Yuna with her Bond short, Mao being her gothic badass self, the rise of Eteri’s girls... and Gold. I’m not knocking her, as I think she was one of the better skaters the US has produced, but between overinflated expectations, her surname, and an inability by Carroll to see the difference between “classic beauty” and “antiquated,” she suffered.

Wagner was also overhyped going into Sochi, didn’t get credit for what she actually did well (choreo, musical interpretation — her programs were stunning in that aspect), and was an easy villain/foil to Gold. Even when she has a compelling point or is on the right side of an argument, she’s built up enough ill will that no one is going to listen to her. (Meanwhile, throughout this: US men — worth remembering that as one side falls, the other begins to rise....)

Which brings us to now. Hughes was the last gold medalist, but is considered a one-hit wonder who came back “fat.” Meissner: also a one-off, allegedly. Cohen was the last to capture hearts, minds, and attention despite being dinged as inconsistent and “quirky.” Nagasu, Chen, and Terrell have fans here, but Nagasu has the 3A legacy... watching NBC hype them and then their actual performances, you really can’t blame the average viewer for feeling lied to, let alone having trouble recruiting new talent. Especially when the USFS is fine leaving its top senior women without coaches or Chen with an ineffective one.

Parental interference is discussed. That could be a factor too: They pay big money and want a say even if their opinion is not grounded in reality.

Happened to Chen before his short, with parents changing the layout. There’s also the money issue; you need to be Kerrigan/Nathan Chen and be making money before you win if you want to have a chance at success.

For the women, though, I think there’s another factor: change in the perception of athleticism versus art, body size, feminism in general. And by that I mean whatever you think of Harding, much of the “fat,” “ugly,” “white trash” criticism comes off very differently now than it did when she landed the 3A, and even documentaries like The Price of Gold from ESPN (which leans relatively heavily on the conclusion that she was probably involved, though without explicitly saying so) spends a great deal of time solidly unpacking the absolutely disgusting BS she went through, giving her due credit (including from male skaters) on the 3A, etc. And that’s where Gold really got hit hard in her programs and packaging — the sport was already moving away from that fragile ice princess mythos, because who wants to compete in a sport that mandates you develop an eating disorder, hate yourself for going through puberty, and force yourself into an outdated conception of femininity? Nagasu is actually a great ambassador for the sport, as she’s not a teen, she made her mark athletically while being more well-rounded than Harding and Meissner, and she doesn’t try to play a role she doesn’t fit.

As a non-Anglo who hit puberty super early (eight years old kind of early; I was 5 feet by the time I was nine, with adult proportions... so much for ballet [emoji23]), figure skating was never a world I’d be welcome in, never mind the fact that I FEAR THE ICE. But as a dancer and an athlete... I can see my younger self wanting to be Nagasu. Because she doesn’t do the full face of makeup. Because she’s not trying to be a princess. She has her own issues as a skater, but she’s at least part of the modern era.

 

[Procrastinator]

Did you even read my post? I just said that these skaters are incosistent(That they are), using their high PCS as a counter-argument to consistency being required for high PCS(They are the 2 skaters who score the most PCS without being consistent, hence them being the examples I picked). How can you make this about Osmond? I also have never called her that unless it was some autocorrect occurance or a typo, or a honest mistake.

Kaetlyn's FS PCS has actually not budged. It's stayed the same since she won world silver (~71). It's Kostner's PCS that has EXPLODED this season, despite no noticeable improvement.

 

[Procrastinator]

Also to the person who implied Weir was a better skater than Lysacek... I don't even have the RAM to write out the response I would need to address everything wrong with that statement.

 

[Metis]

Also to the person who implied Weir was a better skater than Lysacek... I don't even have the RAM to write out the response I would need to address everything wrong with that statement.

Overall, no, but Weir had a better 3A, better spins, and, in my opinion, better programs that were ridiculously undermarked. He didn’t deserve to win in 2010, and I’d still give it to Lysacek under the rules at the time, but I also agreed with Plushenko’s argument about the importance of the quad... and had he not simply skated from jump to jump, he would have won.

Lysacek was not my favorite skater of his cycle. I’m not denying that. It’s also somewhat irrelevant. The media narratives about Weir were totally detrimental to actually recruiting new skaters and growing the sport, and Weir was a bigger name than Lysacek to the average viewer, regardless of our opinions on which man was better.

 

[Procrastinator]

Overall, no, but Weir had a better 3A, better spins, and, in my opinion, better programs that were ridiculously undermarked. He didn’t deserve to win in 2010, and I’d still give it to Lysacek under the rules at the time, but I also agreed with Plushenko’s argument about the importance of the quad... and had he not simply skated from jump to jump, he would have won.

Lysacek was not my favorite skater of his cycle. I’m not denying that. It’s also somewhat irrelevant. The media narratives about Weir were totally detrimental to actually recruiting new skaters and growing the sport, and Weir was a bigger name than Lysacek to the average viewer, regardless of our opinions on which man was better.

Weir was, and still is, a punchline in the mainstream (I'm not saying that's what I believe, I'm saying that's how I see him treated by non-fans). Lysacek was a bigger mainstream name during those games.

I'm not sure Weir was a better spinner. But I'll give you the 3A. That's not up for debate.

 

[Figure 8's]

Miles better than Torino? Sasha Cohen WON the short...

And the Silver Medal!

 

[Figure 8's]

No FS thread yet???

Happy that all 3 US Ladies will skate in the 3rd group. No being first curse this time. Wishing all 3 have a good clean Free Skate and can improve their standings.

 

[chopinskate]

Really? People think Lycasek should've won?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisuke_Takahashi

 

[Procrastinator]

Really? People think Lycasek should've won?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisuke_Takahashi

I mean he literally fell and underrotated. Back then, underrotations = downgrade, so it was disastrous. Lysacek zagitova'd his way to gold by exploiting the scoring system.

 

[chopinskate]

I mean he literally fell and underrotated. Back then, underrotations = downgrade, so it was disastrous. Lysacek zagitova'd his way to gold by exploiting the scoring system.

Takahashi's component scores should probably have been light years ahead of Lycasek.

 

[Metis]

Really? People think Lycasek should've won?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisuke_Takahashi

I’m confused too. [emoji55]

 

[Jammers]

I disagree on “noticeably worse,” but I bolded that second sentence because that’s very much missing from most analyses of the current state of skating. I could tl;dr on why advantages like those the US women enjoyed through its “peak” in women’s skating were unlikely to last and matched by weaknesses elsewhere, but I’m going to try to save my teal deer for only one thread. [emoji23]

The US was very good at finding and training high-level skaters for a long time, which was part of its competitive lead. I wasn’t a fan of Sarah Hughes, but when someone of her caliber is the B-Team of the Olympic squad, you’re ahead of the game. But that’s exactly the kind of advantage that is comparatively easy for other nations to reduce or eliminate — or to squander by complacency. This happens all the time in various sports and competitive activities: there’s someone who starts out on another level, but as others learn the nuances of the (meta)game, their edge over the entire field dramatically narrows.


Arguably, the US squandered the talent it did have, which was an unforced error and helped accelerate the “decline” narrative. Weir was arguably a better skater than Lysacek and certainly did more to boost the sport’s profile — especially in the key age range (young people). I remember Weir blowing up the internet before Twitter was a part of daily life and the 40+ demo knew GIF was pronounced with a hard “g.” I don’t like Weir as a commentator, but as a skater, he was treated as though he was devoid of any technical skill, never practiced, etc., and that still stings.

Cohen was caught in the scoring transition, and also trapped by bad media narratives (inconsistent, crazy/drama queen, “back to the coach she fired — only Sasha!”). After Kwan, whose personality was pitched as calm and serene (and whose programs reinforced that), Sasha was perfect as the “crazy” one, right down to the name. She and Weir were defined almost exclusively by their personalities, not their skills, which may have been good for the media but told anyone watching nothing about skating — except, in the case of Cohen, that flexibility is good? What a waste.

Meissner... I knew of her in 2000, actually, as a friend of mine skates. Another skater who makes me wonder what might have been: what if she’d been born just a bit later and/or spiral sequences weren’t as important to the US audience? What if she’d had a better “narrative”? Despite being an incomplete skater (her spin positions are ... awkward, spirals have bad edging, etc.), I think she’s undervalued in comparison to the next wave, especially on the technical side, where she really did show that she understood what was coming. But she wasn’t a “pretty” skater, and that’s not marketable.

And then Mao Asada and Yuna Kim showed up, and it was clear they came to play. At this point, the US could have changed course and started correcting for its errors, but it didn’t.

I was completely tuned out by the time of Gold and Wagner, and leaving aside the eating disorder issues (I’m a recovered anoretic — I’m well out of the woods after a decade of crazy, so here’s hoping Gold can make it fully into recovery as well), Gold... whatever her skills, I cannot think of a skater more trapped in the 6.0 system in terms of choreo, costume, music, etc. She was shoved into the Ice Princess box and then they taped the lid shut. And I doubt it helped her competitive chances. You had Yuna with her Bond short, Mao being her gothic badass self, the rise of Eteri’s girls... and Gold. I’m not knocking her, as I think she was one of the better skaters the US has produced, but between overinflated expectations, her surname, and an inability by Carroll to see the difference between “classic beauty” and “antiquated,” she suffered.

Wagner was also overhyped going into Sochi, didn’t get credit for what she actually did well (choreo, musical interpretation — her programs were stunning in that aspect), and was an easy villain/foil to Gold. Even when she has a compelling point or is on the right side of an argument, she’s built up enough ill will that no one is going to listen to her. (Meanwhile, throughout this: US men — worth remembering that as one side falls, the other begins to rise....)

Which brings us to now. Hughes was the last gold medalist, but is considered a one-hit wonder who came back “fat.” Meissner: also a one-off, allegedly. Cohen was the last to capture hearts, minds, and attention despite being dinged as inconsistent and “quirky.” Nagasu, Chen, and Terrell have fans here, but Nagasu has the 3A legacy... watching NBC hype them and then their actual performances, you really can’t blame the average viewer for feeling lied to, let alone having trouble recruiting new talent. Especially when the USFS is fine leaving its top senior women without coaches or Chen with an ineffective one.


Happened to Chen before his short, with parents changing the layout. There’s also the money issue; you need to be Kerrigan/Nathan Chen and be making money before you win if you want to have a chance at success.

For the women, though, I think there’s another factor: change in the perception of athleticism versus art, body size, feminism in general. And by that I mean whatever you think of Harding, much of the “fat,” “ugly,” “white trash” criticism comes off very differently now than it did when she landed the 3A, and even documentaries like The Price of Gold from ESPN (which leans relatively heavily on the conclusion that she was probably involved, though without explicitly saying so) spends a great deal of time solidly unpacking the absolutely disgusting BS she went through, giving her due credit (including from male skaters) on the 3A, etc. And that’s where Gold really got hit hard in her programs and packaging — the sport was already moving away from that fragile ice princess mythos, because who wants to compete in a sport that mandates you develop an eating disorder, hate yourself for going through puberty, and force yourself into an outdated conception of femininity? Nagasu is actually a great ambassador for the sport, as she’s not a teen, she made her mark athletically while being more well-rounded than Harding and Meissner, and she doesn’t try to play a role she doesn’t fit.

As a non-Anglo who hit puberty super early (eight years old kind of early; I was 5 feet by the time I was nine, with adult proportions... so much for ballet [emoji23]), figure skating was never a world I’d be welcome in, never mind the fact that I FEAR THE ICE. But as a dancer and an athlete... I can see my younger self wanting to be Nagasu. Because she doesn’t do the full face of makeup. Because she’s not trying to be a princess. She has her own issues as a skater, but she’s at least part of the modern era.

Whatever you think of Gracie's programs or packaging the fact is she had the talent and technical skills to win a World championship something that can't be said since the days of Sasha and Michelle. Her nerves and lack of mental toughness as a competitor is what kept her from winning more because the judges were always ready to reward her if she ever skated to her potential and unlike the current girls she could actually rotate her jumps.

 

[el henry]

What happened was awful, but I don't think it was the fault of the model. It was the fault of the people in charge (and in addition the team doctor). I don't know how to avoid that, except to teach these kids that if the doctor does certain things it is not ok.

And maybe we all should have taken more heed of "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes."

I'm sorry if my post came off as supporting the Karolyis or Nassar. That was definitely not my intent. I applaud the brave gymnasts who came forward.

I did not mean that you supported that in any way shape or form. I do happen to disagree that this kind of centralized model can be tweaked or modified, because it is just too hard to police.

And if I knew how to make American girls world champions without that, I would make a million dollars and do it.

 

[skatefan17]

Whatever you think of Gracie's programs or packaging the fact is she had the talent and technical skills to win a World championship something that can't be said since the days of Sasha and Michelle. Her nerves and lack of mental toughness as a competitor is what kept her from winning more because the judges were always ready to reward her if she ever skated to her potential and unlike the current girls she could actually rotate her jumps.

All the US ladies had focus and competitive issues at these Olympics. That's a point I wish Metis had addressed in his/her beautifully worded post.

 

[chopinskate]

Bringing this here for her inevitable article about the FS:

Let me suggest a new headline for Brennan: "How much should the media back off to let the athletes have their space and train?"

 

[skatefan17]

2017 Worlds LP, 2017 Nationals, 2016 Cup of China, 2016 NHK.



She was marked lower. Hence only getting 42-ish PCS when a perfect performance from her deserves to get PCS on the level of anyone else these days. You admonish her getting a personal best score when the problem is she was actually underscored in the past.



If you're not going to get into, then you're not judging correctly. Kwan had programs without a 3-3 that deserve to score higher for performance/choreography/interpretation than ANY Ladies SP these days. Also note the PCS Jason Brown gets for programs without a quad. Difficult technical content can potentially add excitement to a performance, but it's very possible to have the best PCS ever with considerably lower technical content. The skating Brian Orser and Brian Boitano did in 1988 deserves higher PCS than most guys these days, despite having no quads and not even a Triple-Triple in their SP's.

I agree.