That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

[Miss Ice]

it didn't.
Mirai got 4.5 for the 3A after the -3 GOE and the point deduction for the fall.Karen got the same 4.5 for her clean 2A

Karen also didn't get enough GOE on her beautiful, huge, and correctly executed 2A.

 

[Winnie_20]

so this means the US need to send her to more international competitions against the top girls from the other countries...she needs to see her competition early on.

Dunno about how much "the top" this is, but definitely international: Alysa is currently heading the field in The Hague after the advanced novice ladies SP. I'd not seen her before, but really liked her skating!

 

[Olympic]

I have a different theory regarding US ladies: The US hasn’t gotten noticeably worse. Rather the rest of the World has caught up and in several cases, has passed by the US.

Going way back, we have had stars but if you look at US ladies who were not huge stars but the no. 1 in their respective cycles, they were just as wobbly as the current batch - Rosalynn Summers, Elaine Zayak, Tiffany Chin, Debi Thomas, Jill Trenary, Nancy Kerrigan, Sasha Cohen, and then everyone after 2008. They were skittish but the competition was a lot less fierce until Mao and Yu Na arrived on the Senior scene, so US ladies still achieved podium finishes until 2007 because they only had to contend with only one foreign star or two at any given time (Witt, Ito, Baiul)

I also don’t think the USFSA ever fully and completely recovered from the elimination of 6.0 and emphasizes safe programs to an extent. It can work rarely (Lysacek - 2010) but that doesn’t really win under IJS anymore. Our most high profile coach Frank Carroll was big on not allowing his students to place a jump in a program unless it had a 90 percent success rate. Trapped in 6.0 mentality

Parental interference is discussed. That could be a factor too: They pay big money and want a say even if their opinion is not grounded in reality.

 

[moonvine]

deleted

 

[RobinA]

On this - Adding a 3A to the SP means that you need to be able to actually land it without falling for it to be worthwhile. It's replacing a 2A.

Adding a 3A to the FS, on the other hand, means that it's worth it even if you fall, because here it's going to be replacing a 2T(Assuming you plan the rest of your program out properly). What this means is that even getting like 2 points for the 3A would be an improvement(Although the PCS would suffer). As such, even falling on an URed 3A in the FS would be able to keep your score neutral(assuming you land everything else) or might even be a benefit over not performing one.

Because of this, I'm not really sure if Mirai should do it in SP. Of course, it's great if it works out and it has in the past, but it a risk whereas in the FS it has essentially zero risk on its own.

I wondered too why she tried the 3A in the short. Her percentage on that is not good and it seemed extremely risky. My guess would be she got pressured into it, maybe by herself. I can see how when you finally do something you have been trying to do for YEARS you start to think you can't go back, both in your own and the audience's eyes. It's a shame, because it dug her into hole that even a successful 3A in the Long probably won't dig her out of, where if she weren't in the hole a successful 3A in the Long might have put her over the top. Seems like a major blown call.

 

[moonvine]

The US is so big compared to many countries, so we have to have talent. I wonder if they could go to a semi-centralized model like they have in gymnastics. US Women's gymnastics was nowhere until they did that. Now they're dominant. Also provide more money to promising young talent.

 

[JSM]

I'll disagree a bit with this. Mirai already had a fourth place in Vancouver, and a Bronze medal (and a clean program) in the team event. If she wanted something more (an individual medal), she needed to go for broke.

There is nothing wrong with 'just' strong skates at the Olympics, ala Adam Rippon, but I'm not sure she'd be satisfied with that. She's an athlete, and probably wanted to give it everything she could, no regrets.

 

[anyanka]

I’ve made this comment in another post. I do not think that has anything to do with the training. I think it’s simply that the girls are growing up seeing more sports now being competitive, or disciplines if you want to single out figure skating and they have more options available to them it’s just not the dream anymore

Agreed. With the rise of snowboarding, ski cross, women's hockey becoming much bigger (congrats to the US on that gold, even if it came at the expense of us Canadians!), young girls don't have to box themselves into the much fewer options in winter sports than say 20-30 years ago. Sure, a lot wanted to become the next Michelle Kwan even as recent as 10-15 years ago, but the feds may not have evolved to adapt to the new scoring system (if Tara's analysis is correct).

US also needs a breakout personality who won't just be a face for two weeks. That's the kind of thing you can't really calculate. The media have been pushing Nathan and Adam on the men's side and there was some success there in terms of awareness, but in terms of viewership and reach, who knows what the impact is at this time. Network broadcast ratings are down, but that's also due to people consuming media online, and doesn't account for social media penetration.

Hopefully, girls everywhere have seen Mirai and said "heck I want to do a 3A too!" and up their game, and also leverage media to make themselves into contenders. Maybe not by 2022 but this is sowing the seeds for 2026.

 

[eriecold]

I wondered too why she tried the 3A in the short. Her percentage on that is not good and it seemed extremely risky. My guess would be she got pressured into it, maybe by herself. I can see how when you finally do something you have been trying to do for YEARS you start to think you can't go back, both in your own and the audience's eyes. It's a shame, because it dug her into hole that even a successful 3A in the Long probably won't dig her out of, where if she weren't in the hole a successful 3A in the Long might have put her over the top. Seems like a major blown call.

Mirai had a lovely program. Falling on the 3A basically gave her the same points as a nice 2A, so, she didn't exactly lose points for doing it, she just didn't win them either. Had she not fallen, it would have given her a very welcome 4 point boost, which, given her low PCS, were quite needed. She just didn't get that boost.Still, she got a SB

 

[el henry]

The US is so big compared to many countries, so we have to have talent. I wonder if they could go to a semi-centralized model like they have in gymnastics. US Women's gymnastics was nowhere until they did that. Now they're dominant. Also provide more money to promising young talent.

I understand what you are saying, and I certainly think young figure skaters could use more support.

But I would return every gold medal the USA gymnasts ever won if we could go back in time and dismantle the Karolyi camp.

Some things are not worth a gold medal, and losing your childhood is one of them:scowl:

 

[cruzceleste]

I understand what you are saying, and I certainly think young figure skaters could use more support.

But I would return every gold medal the USA gymnasts ever won if we could go back in time and dismantle the Karolyi camp.

Some things are not worth a gold medal, and losing your childhood is one of them:scowl:

America has a "summer" camp before every season, don´t you? The skaters present their programs to local judges, get retro in components and everything.

About the girls I wish them the best for today.

 

[imisscohen]

I understand what you are saying, and I certainly think young figure skaters could use more support.

But I would return every gold medal the USA gymnasts ever won if we could go back in time and dismantle the Karolyi camp.

Some things are not worth a gold medal, and losing your childhood is one of them:scowl:

AMENNNNNN. And I am a DIE HARD gymnastics fan, especially compared to skating. I was in tears with each incredible victory, but look at the costs. If I had known then, what I know now...

Even as a freaking fan, I am so ashamed. So, so ashamed.

Let's avoid a centralized model.

 

[yelyoh]

Also it's expensive. I think perhaps it's cyclical. I mean for quite a while the Russians did not have much on the females' side after Irina, Maria and Victoria. Leonova was lucky to get the World's silver medal. Today's female Russian skaters are not lucky, they're really good!!

 

[moonvine]

I understand what you are saying, and I certainly think young figure skaters could use more support.

But I would return every gold medal the USA gymnasts ever won if we could go back in time and dismantle the Karolyi camp.

Some things are not worth a gold medal, and losing your childhood is one of them:scowl:

Certainly not the Karolyi camp. Just the same type of thing, with plenty of access to their children for parents. The Karolyi camp is out in the woods, hard to get to, and had very limited contact with parents (I think only in emergencies?) I think the system is fine, and USA Gymnastics is going to continue it as far as I know (NOT at the Karolyi camp). I didn't mean anyone to think that, sorry. If I could go back I'd deny them access to the US in the first place.

 

[moonvine]

AMENNNNNN. And I am a DIE HARD gymnastics fan, especially compared to skating. I was in tears with each incredible victory, but look at the costs. If I had known then, what I know now...

Even as a freaking fan, I am so ashamed. So, so ashamed.

Let's avoid a centralized model.

What happened was awful, but I don't think it was the fault of the model. It was the fault of the people in charge (and in addition the team doctor). I don't know how to avoid that, except to teach these kids that if the doctor does certain things it is not ok.

And maybe we all should have taken more heed of "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes."

I'm sorry if my post came off as supporting the Karolyis or Nassar. That was definitely not my intent. I applaud the brave gymnasts who came forward.

 

[Makkachin]

I’ve made this comment in another post. I do not think that has anything to do with the training. I think it’s simply that the girls are growing up seeing more sports now being competitive, or disciplines if you want to single out figure skating and they have more options available to them it’s just not the dream anymore

I agree with this. I live in an area of the US where skating used to be huge and has now diminished so far that there are even extremely low numbers in beginner Learn-to-Skate classes, never mind having figure skaters doing double and triple jumps. Most high level coaches have gone elsewhere because the interest is just not here anymore. It's not affordable or desirable when kids can do other sports at school or outdoors for low or no cost. Even affluent parents are more likely to put their children into other sports because as Tigerlily said, skating is no longer "the dream."

I'm also leery of the idea that we need to keep pushing the technical difficulty at younger and younger ages because of injury risk (maybe mental health, too). Our first challenge is to get people/parents interested in and excited about skating enough to start skating/put their children in lessons. The next challenge is to keep them interested enough and motivated enough to continue to rise through the levels. This takes proper coaching and training but there also has to be some kind of incitement of the motivation for more kids/parents to try it and stick with it. USFS has tried and failed for the last decade or so. Not placing the blame on anyone, by the way, USFS officials or coaches, because it is incredibly difficult to artificially create hype and interest where there is none, and few sustainable factors (like costs and lack of high level facilities).

Other countries like Russia and Japan have WAY MORE skaters in their rinks. If the US could match those numbers, of course we would naturally also have more skaters who want to continue on through the levels, not just learn how to skate for a friend's birthday party (which is most of what I see at my rinks).

 

[amateur]

The US "panic" over this sort of thing is amusing. (though slightly sad and annoying too)

Nothing "happened"; it is pretty normal not to be #1 all the time in any competitive endeavour, and is no great shame not to be.
After all, only one can be #1 at any given time -- by the very definition of "#1" -- and yet there are multiple that are worthy.

How do you think other countries feel most of the time?
There is no crisis.

 

[fallingsk8er]

The American women did better than I predicted. I figured they would be behind the Russian, Canadian, and Japanese women and Carolina. They have been behind them all season. Mirai might have broken through if she were completely clean but she wasn't. Karen and Brandy didn't really have a shot if everyone skated well.

 

[MarinHondas]

That's what i said in the other thread.

Watch Junior Grand Prix.

The american girls are soo behind the russians, the japanese and even the koreans, and the reason (imo) is the fact their training until 15 years old is "too soft": no 3-3, very basic skating skills and transitions, they don't have the stamina to skate a 7 triples free program.

But for some reason most of the americans have amazing spins, incredibly fast and centered and you can't achieve that without training, so that makes me believe that coaches are focusing too much on certain aspects like spins and not enough on other like jumps.

There is one American who can keep up with the rest of the world. Her name is Alysa Liu. At nationals she did 7 triples in the second half, a triple flip and 3lz-3t in the second half of her short. She is not eligible for the JGP until 2019 but I think she may make waves.

 

[Procrastinator]

To each his own. Here is the 4th place skate at the 2010 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsp-7S79IYI

That's why I said 2006!