The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[Mathman]

Is your implication that threatened other judges? I guess I'm just confused why you believe that to be the case, because I heard that tossed around by random people on GS but you're a bit more credible than most.

I don't know what I think. I do not understand the workings of the ISU much at all, and to tell the truth, I have little desire to do so.

I don't think anyone threatens anyone. I said a moment ago that I do not think that Mr. Auxier threatens anyone. I do not see how you jump from that harmless sentence to an "implication" that Anna Shekhovtsova does threaten people.

When you hang around an organization for a long time you pick up friends and cronies and you like to pal around together. You develop common interests. Maybe you even finagle to have your friends assigned to prestigious sub-committees.

I shouldn't be posting on this thread at all. I do not find the scoring of PCSs to be abhorrent.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I shouldn't be posting on this thread at all. I do not find the scoring of PCSs to be abhorrent.

If you don't get outraged or find scoring to be abhorrent, what fun is there to have here?

 

[mrrice]

If you don't get outraged or find scoring to be abhorrent, what fun is there to have here?

That was awesome................................

 

[gsyzf]

I think this was the case under 6.0, too. People like Surya and Elvis would get very high artistic marks during the peaks of their career solely on the basis of technical ability. In some ways, the judges have to compensate technical achievement in PCS. We've discussed how difficult combinations are not rewarded under the judging system; if someone does two 3/3's, she could easily end up with a lower BV than others because her program contains two low-valued 3Ts. The only way to reward that difficulty, at the moment, is through PCS, but maybe the judges have gotten a bit carried away with this practice.

Athleticism is part of artistry as well, especially for men. In 6.0, difficult combos were rewarded in technical scores, and technical achievements also raised artistic scores. But the technical difficulty in 6.0 era was nowhere near the technical difficulty today. Today's technical difficulty is more than double the technical difficulty in 6.0 era. The PCS today also increased more than the artistic mores in 6.0 era when skaters land more quads. In 6.0 era, mistakes like falls were harshly punished. So men didn't attempt quads unless it was absolutely necessary. Now, men get many points for failed quads, that just encourage many of them to attempt many quads.

 

[andromache]

Athleticism is part of artistry as well, especially for men. In 6.0, difficult combos were rewarded in technical scores, and technical achievements also raised artistic scores. But the technical difficulty in 6.0 era was nowhere near the technical difficulty today. Today's technical difficulty is more than double the technical difficulty in 6.0 era. The PCS today also increased more than the artistic mores in 6.0 era when skaters land more quads. In 6.0 era, mistakes like falls were harshly punished. So men didn't attempt quads unless it was absolutely necessary. Now, men get many points for failed quads, that just encourage many of them to attempt many quads.

What I find interesting is how the new weighting of jumps/falls has, on the one hand, dramatically pushed the sport in men, and on the other, women haven't seen the same thing. Why don't we see more women doing planned falls on 3As or 4Ts?

That's not to say the women have stagnated, as I have sometimes seen claimed. The number and types of 3-3s we see have increased dramatically since 2010. Still, I think if in, say, 2002, people were asked what would happen first: a trend of 3As for ladies or a trend of 4Lzs/4Fs for men, I think many fans would've thought we'd see more 3As. Boyang Jin definitely lit a spark under the men last year, but somehow Mao and Liza haven't done the same thing.

Is consistency more important than ambitious jumps for getting good PCS for ladies? For example, if Wakaba Higuchi came up this year with her current jump content (pretend she's relatively consistent on it), programs, plus a 3A fall once per program, what would her PCS be like? Would they get higher every competition like Evgenia (consistent lady who is total package) or like Shoma's (one or two major mistakes [falls or something] per competition, total package)? Or would her PCS stay around where they are now?

 

[gsyzf]

What I find interesting is how the new weighting of jumps/falls has, on the one hand, dramatically pushed the sport in men, and on the other, women haven't seen the same thing. Why don't we see more women doing planned falls on 3As or 4Ts?

That's not to say the women have stagnated, as I have sometimes seen claimed. The number and types of 3-3s we see have increased dramatically since 2010. Still, I think if in, say, 2002, people were asked what would happen first: a trend of 3As for ladies or a trend of 4Lzs/4Fs for men, I think many fans would've thought we'd see more 3As. Boyang Jin definitely lit a spark under the men last year, but somehow Mao and Liza haven't done the same thing.

Is consistency more important than ambitious jumps for getting good PCS for ladies? For example, if Wakaba Higuchi came up this year with her current jump content (pretend she's relatively consistent on it), programs, plus a 3A fall once per program, what would her PCS be like? Would they get higher every competition like Evgenia (consistent lady who is total package) or like Shoma's (one or two major mistakes [falls or something] per competition, total package)? Or would her PCS stay around where they are now?

I think the tech panel is much more harsh on ladies than on men. That may be a reason why ladies aren't encouraged to try 3a or quads, whereas men are encouraged. Before 2010, the UR, wrong edge and fall deduction were harsh on both men and women. So even men were discouraged to attempt quads. Now the deduction on men's mistakes is reduced (men rarely get UR calls), but women are still scrutinized for UR and wrong edge, so men are encouraged to attempt quads, while ladies aren't encouraged to attempt 3a and quads.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What I find interesting is how the new weighting of jumps/falls has, on the one hand, dramatically pushed the sport in men, and on the other, women haven't seen the same thing. Why don't we see more women doing planned falls on 3As or 4Ts?

It probably has to do with the fact that they don't have to in order to win. If not for Boyang/Nathan/Shoma, I don't think Yuzu would have the 4Lo in his programs because it's an incredibly risky move that would be unnecessary if there weren't men attempting more difficult quads. Someone like Alina can, by having all the jumping passes in the bonus, have a higher BV than a skater with a 3A. While I don't think it's good for program balance, it is an impressive athletic feat.

 

[gkelly]

What I find interesting is how the new weighting of jumps/falls has, on the one hand, dramatically pushed the sport in men, and on the other, women haven't seen the same thing. Why don't we see more women doing planned falls on 3As or 4Ts?

Because they can't rotate them.

A downgraded 3A or 4T is worth less than a clean 2A or 3T even if landed on one foot (because the base value is the same and the GOE will be negative). If the skater is going to fall as well, the end result is an element that's worth almost nothing.

If the skater can count on getting at least a < if not credit for full rotation, then it would be worth trying. But it's very very very rare for a female skater to be able to complete that much rotation in the air.

 

[narcissa]

Because they can't rotate them.

A downgraded 3A or 4T is worth less than a clean 2A or 3T even if landed on one foot (because the base value is the same and the GOE will be negative). If the skater is going to fall as well, the end result is an element that's worth almost nothing.

If the skater can count on getting at least a < if not credit for full rotation, then it would be worth trying. But it's very very very rare for a female skater to be able to complete that much rotation in the air.

Yeah, and Mao's PCS/TES (after calls) haven't been very inspiring. It seems like consistency and rotation and triple-triples are rewarded more than quads and 3As (Yuna, Evgenia).

 

[Ares]

Because they can't rotate them.

A downgraded 3A or 4T is worth less than a clean 2A or 3T even if landed on one foot (because the base value is the same and the GOE will be negative). If the skater is going to fall as well, the end result is an element that's worth almost nothing.

If the skater can count on getting at least a < if not credit for full rotation, then it would be worth trying. But it's very very very rare for a female skater to be able to complete that much rotation in the air.

Well it's not exactly correct as you can get positive overall GOE or exactly 0 on underrotated jump / combo but it's somewhat rare as you need big positive GOE on such pass before it gets pushed down.

 

[Ares]

We need Shin Amano and Shin Amano clones to be the tech caller at every event, and somebody who possesses Shin Amano-like qualities to judge at every competiton. /s
But really, this guy's name is the first name that came to my mind when I thought of unbiased officials - he really gives no easy time to Japanese skaters.

Also, How is the above discussion a sexist discussion? People would be making the same argument had the judge been Anton S., the husband of Valentina P. who is the head of RUS Skating Fed. I see it more as nationalism/anti-Russian sentiments than sexism.

He indeed shows no bias but as much as I appreciate strict callers I think he also had some pretty doubtful / bogus looking calls.

 

[gkelly]

Well it's not exactly correct as you can get positive overall GOE or exactly 0 on underrotated jump / combo but it's somewhat rare as you need big positive GOE on such pass before it gets pushed down.

You're not going to get positive GOE and are highly unlikely to get 0 on a << downgraded jump (>180 degrees short of rotation, base value the same as a jump with one less rotation). If downgrade is likely, you're better off just doing the jump with one less rotation.

For an < underrotated jump, in which the base value is 70% of the intended jump and the GOE reduction is less severe, it is worth more than a lesser jump, especially if you remain upright and avoid the fall deduction.

Or if you've maxed out your other jumps. E.g., a skater who has enough triple-triples or 2A+triples that she can fit 7 triples and 2 double axels into 6 jump passes might as well use the other jump pass for a 3A or quad attempt if she can rotate it within 180 degrees. As long as it won't be downgraded, she'll earn some positive points for it even if she falls.

But if she's going to fall on a downgraded 3A, she might as well just use the extra jump pass for a simple double jump or single axel with enhancements. Or not do so many triple-triples the better to maximize her GOE.

 

[Ares]

The goal of the national skating federations is to bring home medals, not ensure that skaters from other countries are judged fairly. It doesn't matter if a judge is new or experienced. No federation is going to promote a judge who consistently under marks his countrymen. The highest score is dropped, so that's really the only practical way to discount the outlier so that the score doesn't impact the result.

Well ... after dropping of extreme scores the final result can still end up skewed in certain circumstances. I do think that judges should be casted from large pool of them to at least minimalize chance of really bad, unobjective judge judging event after event. Bloc judging would still be possible though but I don't believe that it's rife anymore. So in short they should not be selected by their own federation to prevent from choosing "beneficial judge for their skaters" I can imagine it being difficult to pursue though. You would have to draw let's say from 100 / 200 to make it fair and ensure that countries won't repeat and they can't be all from the same continent. It still would not ensure more fair judging though sadly as some deals could be made soon before competition.

 

[Ares]

Oh, really? Judges with absolutely no ties to any country?

Where would such judges come from? Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn?

But first Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn would have to become ISU members.

And if Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn become ISU members, then skaters from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn would have to be allowed to compete.

But wait ... oh, no ... then there would be the possibility of judges from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn being on the judging panels at comps where skaters from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn are competing ...

I didn't mean "no links". You would have to select judges from Cameroon, Cambodia & Haiti or other countries without their contestants to make it happen. You complety missed my point.

I know it might be idealistic but I think there should not be judges who are getting paid by their federations, wifes of fed. presidents, vice-presidents of skating federations like it sometimes is.
That encourages them towards being biased even involuntarily so and it's just patriotism I reckon.
Common sense, anyone?


It is conflict of interests and even though ISU has recommendations against it - that thing still happens. Also judges who were judges in 6.0 system - big no to that. They can consider that as a system of ordinals way more than those who only judge COP. Credibility of 6.0 judges is also doubtful as there was constant buzz about bloc judging and other affairs - more than now in fact.

 

[gsyzf]

It probably has to do with the fact that they don't have to in order to win. If not for Boyang/Nathan/Shoma, I don't think Yuzu would have the 4Lo in his programs because it's an incredibly risky move that would be unnecessary if there weren't men attempting more difficult quads. Someone like Alina can, by having all the jumping passes in the bonus, have a higher BV than a skater with a 3A. While I don't think it's good for program balance, it is an impressive athletic feat.

Jin/Chen/Uno weren't threats to Hanyu last season. Chen was a junior last season. Jin/Uno scored nowhere near Hanyu even when they were clean. So Hanyu didn't need more types of quads to beat Jin/Chen/Uno last season. But he did lose to Fernandez who had the similar jump layout as him at WC 2016 and Fernandez also scored the same as Hanyu when he was clean, which means Hanyu would need high BV to beat Fernandez in the future. I think the main trigger that pushed Hanyu to include 4lo in his program is his loss to Fernandez at WC2016 (he has been practicing 4lo before that, but he didn't add 4lo to his program because at that time, it wasn't absolutely necessary to do 4lo to win). This season, the youngsters upped their tech even more and became bigger threats. (The youngsters are willing to attempt more difficult quads because they need more quads to win and the deduction for failed quads isn't very harsh. It's worth taking that risk at this stage of their career.) Hanyu lost to Chen who did more difficult quads. That would push Hanyu to do more difficult quads too.


There were men who attempt more difficult quad before COP too, e.g. Tim Goebel attempted 4s and did 3 quads, but Yagudin and Plushenko still only did 4t and two quads in the FS because Goebel wasn't really a threat to either Yagudin nor Plushenko. If the men who attempt more difficult quads weren't threats to the top skaters, the top skaters won't try more difficulty quads because it's too risky and unnecessary.

 

[gkelly]

I know it might be idealistic but I think there should not be judges who are getting paid by their federations, wifes of fed. presidents, vice-presidents of skating federations like it sometimes is.

Federation presents, wives of federation presidents, and vice-presidents of skating federations are not paid by their federations; they're volunteers. (Of course they do get their expenses covered and maybe some upper tier accommodations at meetings etc.)

Of course they're patriotic and inclined to support their own skaters if they judge internationally.

But so is an international judge who is "just" a member of an unglamorous committee of their federation. Or one who does no volunteer work at all for their federation aside from judging prestigious competitions -- assuming they can get their federations to assign them to those prestigious competitions if they refuse to do any gruntwork.

I'm not sure why some federation officials would be automatically more biased against their skaters' rivals than others.

It is conflict of interests and even though ISU has recommendations against it - that thing still happens.

The conflict of interest guidelines mostly have to do with financial interests including coaching. Not with volunteer positions however prestigious.

Also judges who were judges in 6.0 system - big no to that.

What do you mean? No one who judged before 2005 is allowed to judge ever again?

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Jin/Chen/Uno weren't threats to Hanyu last season. Chen was a junior last season. Jin/Uno scored nowhere near Hanyu even when they were clean. So Hanyu didn't need more types of quads to beat Jin/Chen/Uno last season. But he did lose to Fernandez who had the similar jump layout as him at WC 2016 and Fernandez also scored the same as Hanyu when he was clean, which means Hanyu would need high BV to beat Fernandez in the future. I think the main trigger that pushed Hanyu to include 4lo in his program is his loss to Fernandez at WC2016 (he has been practicing 4lo before that, but he didn't add 4lo to his program because at that time, it wasn't absolutely necessary to do 4lo to win). This season, the youngsters upped their tech even more and became bigger threats. (The youngsters are willing to attempt more difficult quads because they need more quads to win and the deduction for failed quads isn't very harsh. It's worth taking that risk at this stage of their career.) Hanyu lost to Chen who did more difficult quads. That would push Hanyu to do more difficult quads too.

Don't state that as a fact, as it's your speculation and not anything you actually know.
Maybe Yuzuru didn't add 4Lo last season because adding a quad each in SP and LP was adequate progress for one year, while the 4Lo was planned for the follow up season all the time. He did throw it around in galas after all (like he did with the 4S before adding it to his programs). Some people might value steady progression instead of throwing in everything you can do in some form or way.

 

[Bcash]

The PCS reality nowadays is coo-coo bananas for sure.

Unfortunately, if you have someone like a sloppy Sotnikova winning gold over a pristine Kim or Kostner at the Olympics and nothing being done about it... well I think that says a lot about what you can expect from the ISU concerning this scoring nonsense.

Welp.

Rewatched Yuna's programs from Sochi and they really stood the test of time, unlike some other performances.

 

[ice coverage]

I didn't mean "no links". You would have to select judges from Cameroon, Cambodia & Haiti or other countries without their contestants to make it happen. You complety missed my point ....

I did not miss your point at all.

But I fear that you missed mine -- which was/is that the sweeping idealism of your earlier comment would not be as easy to implement in the real world as you apparently imagine.  IMO.

 

[Bcash]

To cite an example from ID, I felt that the PCS for Hubbell/Donohue at last year's Worlds should be second only to Papadakis/Cizeron.

I'm okay with a small amount of room for "reputation judging", maybe to reward consistency through the entire season or sth like that, but really we and the commentators and the press people who follow skating closely enough all know this is a problem. What I want to know more about is why are judges acting this way without any consequences or at lease a reminder at their ISU meetings/conferences, that PCS actually has judging criteria to be followed.

What political/technical/institutional mechanism is stopping them from judging skaters purely or primarily based on their actual skills and particular performances?