The Medalists thread, part 2 - MEN

[Blades of Passion]

Continue with your lists!

First part located here: http://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24576

2010 Worlds
1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Brian Joubert
3. Patrick Chan

2010 Olympics
1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Takahiko Kozuka
3. Evgeni Plushenko
(Johnny Weir in 4th, Evan Lysacek in 5th...I"ve talked about my placements here ad nauseam, so I'll refrain from writing a giant detailed opinion in this space unless someone really hasn't heard it before. Basically, though, Takahashi and Kozuka not only had the most technically difficult programs but were also FAR ahead of everyone else in terms of their overall presentation/artistry. Therefore, even with a fall they were still better than the rest. Lysacek is in 5th because, despite skating basically clean and doing all the required moves, his program was awful and his edge quality is below that of most every other top skater and there was hardly any emotion in his performance)

2009 Worlds
1. Evan Lysacek
2. Patrick Chan
3. Brian Joubert

2008 Worlds
1. Jeffrey Buttle
2. Brian Joubert
3. Daisuke Takahashi (was screwed over by his clean Triple Lutz being worth 0 points because of a really stupid rule)

2007 Worlds
1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Brian Joubert
3. Stephane Lambiel (too bad he bombed in the SP...I rank him 1st in the LP)

2006 Worlds
1. Stephane Lambiel
2. Brian Joubert
3. Nobunari Oda

2006 Olympics
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Stephane Lambiel
3. Matt Savoie (best Transitions of the competition, soulful skating...ignored by the judges)

2005 Worlds
1. Stephane Lambiel
2. Jeffrey Buttle
3. Johnny Weir (so much better than Lysacek in the LP)

2004 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Brian Joubert
3. Stefan Lindemann (he should have been 1st in the SP! That was an all-time great performance. Better choreography than Plushenko and one of the best Quad-Triple combinations ever)

2003 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Timothy Goebel
3. Takeshi Honda

2002 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Timothy Goebel
3. Alexander Abt

2002 Olympics
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Timothy Goebel
3. Evgeni Plushenko

2001 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Alexei Yagudin
3. Todd Eldredge

2000 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Michael Weiss

1999 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Evgeni Plushenko
3. Michael Weiss
(Also, Laurent Tobel deserved 6th in the LP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzpT8vn4ZzQ . In terms of technical merit it's the best he has ever done! The only problem was underrotating the second 3Axel. I wanted to spotlight this performance since I do the same for his 1997 turn...I think the overall performance in 1997 is better but that giant hitchkick he adds here is cool!)

1998 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Todd Eldredge
3. Evgeni Plushenko

1998 Olympics
1. Ilia Kulik
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Philippe Candeloro

1997 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Todd Eldredge
3. Viacheslav Zagorodniuk
(Laurent Tobel deserved to place 2nd in the LP. I'm so not kidding! It's one of the most hilarious competitive programs of all time and his jumping, with 7 Triples including a 3Axel-3Toe, was honestly the second best of the night considering the mistakes everyone else made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6CcGLX5XMg)

1996 Worlds
1. Todd Eldredge
2. Ilia Kulik
3. Rudy Galindo

1995 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Todd Eldredge
3. Eric Millot

1994 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Philippe Candeloro
3. Alexei Urmanov

1994 Olympics
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Philippe Candeloro
3. Alexei Urmanov

1993 Worlds
1. Kurt Browning
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Alexei Urmanov

1992 Worlds
1. Viktor Petrenko
2. Kurt Browning
3. Elvis Stojko

1992 Olympics
1. Paul Wylie
2. Viktor Petrenko (This has got to be the worst Gold-medal winning LP of modern times. His SP holds him up to 2nd...)
3. Elvis Stojko

1991 Worlds
1. Kurt Browning
2. Viktor Petrenko
3. Christopher Bowman

1990 Worlds
1. Kurt Browning
2. Viktor Petrenko
3. Christopher Bowman

1989 Worlds
1. Kurt Browning
2. Christopher Bowman
3. Grzegorz Filipowski

1988 Worlds
1. Brian Boitano
2. Brian Orser
3. Kurt Browning

1988 Olympics
1. Brian Boitano
2. Brian Orser
3. Viktor Petrenko

1987 Worlds
1. Brian Orser
2. Brian Boitano
3. Christopher Bowman

1986 Worlds
1. Brian Boitano
2. Brian Orser
3. Vladimir Kotin

1985 Worlds
1. Alexander Fadeev
2. Brian Orser
3. Brian Boitano

1984 Worlds
1. Scott Hamilton
2. Brian Orser
3. Alexandr Fadeev

1984 Olympics
1. Brian Orser
2. Brian Boitano
3. Scott Hamilton (should have been 3rd in the SP and 4th in the LP...)

1983 Worlds
1. Scott Hamilton
2. Brian Boitano
3. Brian Orser

1982 Worlds
1. Scott Hamilton
2. Norbert Schramm
3. Brian Pockar

1981 Worlds
1. Scott Hamilton
2. David Santee
3. Igor Bobrin

1980 Worlds
1. Robin Cousins
2. Jan Hoffmann
3. Charles Tickner

1980 Olympics
1. Robin Cousins
2. Jan Hoffmann
3. Charles Tickner

 

[museksk8r]

2008 Worlds
1. Jeffrey Buttle
2. Brian Joubert
3. Johnny Weir

2007 Worlds
1. Daisuke Takahashi (I agree, he was so robbed!)
2. Brian Joubert
3. Stephane Lambiel

2006 Worlds
1. Stephane Lambiel
2. Brian Joubert
3. Evan Lysacek

2006 Olympics
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Stephane Lambiel
3. Jeffrey Buttle

2005 Worlds
1. Stephane Lambiel
2. Jeffrey Buttle
3. Evan Lysacek

2004 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Brian Joubert
3. Stephane Lambiel

2003 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Timothy Goebel
3. Takeshi Honda

2002 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Timothy Goebel
3. Alexander Abt

2002 Olympics
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Evgeni Plushenko
3. Timothy Goebel

2001 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Alexei Yagudin
3. Todd Eldredge

2000 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Michael Weiss

1999 Worlds
1. Alexei Yagudin
2. Evgeni Plushenko
3. Michael Weiss

1998 Worlds
1. Todd Eldredge
2. Alexei Yagudin
3. Evgeni Plushenko

1998 Olympics
1. Ilia Kulik
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Philipe Candeloro

1997 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Todd Eldredge
3. Alexei Yagudin

1996 Worlds
1. Todd Eldredge
2. Ilia Kulik
3. Rudy Galindo

1995 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Todd Eldredge
3. Philippe Candeloro

1994 Worlds
1. Elvis Stojko
2. Philippe Candeloro
3. Viacheslav Zagorodniuk

1994 Olympics
1. Alexei Urmanov
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Philippe Candeloro

1993 Worlds
1. Kurt Browning
2. Elvis Stojko
3. Alexei Urmanov

1992 Worlds
1. Viktor Petrenko
2. Kurt Browning
3. Elvis Stojko

1992 Olympics
1. Paul Wylie
2. Viktor Petrenko
3. Petr Barna

 

[iluvtodd]

2001 Worlds
1. Evgeni Plushenko
2. Alexei Yagudin
3. Todd Eldredge

I'm not going to comment on the whole list, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here (or pit Russian vs. US skaters), but I really feel Todd should have been the silver medalist at 2001 Worlds. Alexei had a very flawed free skate (was he injured at the time? - I don't remember). I know Todd did not have a consistent quad through his eligible years, but rest of his "1492" program was spot on. Actually he had a very strong competition through all three phases (I'll never understand the mark of the judge who put him 7th (!) :sheesh: after the short program).

Re: 1994 Olympics - I had hoped that Elvis would win (with all due respect to Alexei Urmanov), but justice was done a month later at Worlds. arty:

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not going to comment on the whole list, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here (or pit Russian vs. US skaters), but I really feel Todd should have been the silver medalist at 2001 Worlds. Alexei had a very flawed free skate (was he injured at the time? - I don't remember).

Yes, he was injured. Alexei did make a couple mistakes but he didn't fall. He had the Quad and Eldredge did not, so that nearly up for those mistakes. In terms of the second mark, I like Yagudin more. So much soul in his performance and very distinctive choreography. Eldredge was great but that program didn't show us anything we hadn't seen from him before. So, overall, I think Yagudin was a bit better. I would be fine with calling their LP's a tie but when you consider their SP's as well Yagudin's was stronger, so I have to say he deserved Silver.

I do think Todd deserved to place over Yagudin in 1998 though!

 

[Blades of Passion]

I guess people around here aren't big into making lists.

What about you, iluvtodd? I'd like to hear more of your opinions. :yes:

 

[iluvtodd]

Well, I'm not big on making lists (except for favorite skaters, programs, I guess ), and I still don't have the technical knowledge to judge performances, but I still feel that Todd should have won that silver medal at 2001 Worlds. I do think he put everything he had into that performance (OK, I'll admit that I could care less about quads, and am tired of what I think is the over-emphasis on them at the expense of the rest of the program). Nevertheless, I was thrilled that he made the podium after taking off 2 seasons of competing at US Nationals. In his own words, he said in an interview that he was hoping for a top five finish, and his results at those worlds exceeded his hopes. OTOH, I will not dispute Alexei's Olympic gold medal in 2002.

 

[Hsuhs]

2008 Worlds
1. Jeffrey Buttle
2. Brian Joubert
3. Daisuke Takahashi

2007 Worlds
1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Brian Joubert
3. Stephane Lambiel

Being a _huge_ fan of Daisuke's skating, I disagree. In 2007 he wasn't perfect in SP, and he did have a hand down on the quad in LP. Yes, Brian Joubert skated one of his carefully calculated uninspired LPs, so what - Brian's strategy proved wrong a year later.

In 2008 Daisuke had a mistake in SP, and a flawed LP. He shoudn't have done that 2T in the last combo, either.

He got robbed on another occasion, but it wasn't Worlds. Besides the 'lucky competition' is now a history, time to let it go, I guess.

 

[museksk8r]

Being a _huge_ fan of Daisuke's skating, I disagree. In 2007 he wasn't perfect in SP, and he did have a hand down on the quad in LP. Yes, Brian Joubert skated one of his carefully calculated uninspired LPs, so what - Brian's strategy proved wrong a year later.

In 2008 Daisuke had a mistake in SP, and a flawed LP. He shoudn't have done that 2T in the last combo, either.

He got robbed on another occasion, but it wasn't Worlds. Besides the 'lucky competition' is now a history, time to let it go, I guess.

Joubert was not mistake free either though. He put his hand down on the landing of his 3Lutz in the SP. Daisuke's LP was far more difficult than Brian's, as was Stephane's. They both attempted 2 quads to Brian's 1 quad. Takahashi was much better style wise than Joubert too. Brian threw all style and posture out the window and instead skated around with a hunched back and rounded shoulders. Joubert won based on his PCS boost for being undefeated throughout the season. His performances at the 2007 Worlds were the worst of his season I think.

 

[Hsuhs]

They both attempted 2 quads to Brian's 1 quad. Takahashi was much better style wise than Joubert too.

What two quads? I mean, Daisuke.
http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2007
I do prefer his style over Brian's, but in my eyes, Daisuke didn't deserve the gold.

 

[evplu]

That is so stupid!!!!

The competions are over.
Brian is world champion in 2007!

The game is over and I can´t hear this anymore.
Without Brian figure skating would be boring today

I love Brians sexy, greatful quads!

"Figure skating is a hard sport" Evgeny Plushenko

 

[museksk8r]

What two quads? I mean, Daisuke.
http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2007
I do prefer his style over Brian's, but in my eyes, Daisuke didn't deserve the gold.

My mistake, Dai did not attempt 2 quads in his LP at WC2007, however Takahashi did do two 3Axel attempts while Brian only did 1, and I still feel Dai should have won gold over Brian. Figure skating is much more than a quad jump, something Joubert still needs to learn. Case closed, in my opinion anyway.

 

[evplu]

Brian does programs that the figure skating world never forget. Matrix, James Bond, Nothing else matters. He is a great performer who brings the right feeling and atmosphäre in his progrrams!

I wish him all the best for his future and that the people respect his way of skating!
He brings his personality in his skating!

 

[Buttercup]

Joubert was not mistake free either though. He put his hand down on the landing of his 3Lutz in the SP. Daisuke's LP was far more difficult than Brian's, as was Stephane's. They both attempted 2 quads to Brian's 1 quad. Takahashi was much better style wise than Joubert too. Brian threw all style and posture out the window and instead skated around with a hunched back and rounded shoulders. Joubert won based on his PCS boost for being undefeated throughout the season.

No, Joubert won 2007 Worlds because he had a better SP, which despite the hand down gave him a comfortable lead. Had things been closer, maybe he would have skated a less conservative LP. Maybe not. But the bottom line is that Takahashi was playing catch-up, and while he had a better LP, it wasn't enough to justify a win: harder, maybe, but not cleaner, and not all he could have done in terms of content, either.

Quads aren't everything, but top skaters should be doing them - in both programs. Just as guys who have weaknesses in other areas should work on them (e.g. Brian's spins). Takahashi should work on getting a quad combination into his short - why throw away base value points?

 

[museksk8r]

To evplu and Buttercup, Joubert's programs are forgettable, IMO. Aside from the jumps, he doesn't really offer much to me. Opinions are not wrong . . . we all have different tastes. Some posters in this thread prefer Brian and some, like me, prefer the likes of Stephane, Jeff, and Daisuke, among others.

As for having a quad combination in the SP, it sure didn't help Stephane and Brian last season at Worlds. Jeff, Johnny, Daisuke, and Tomas all had quadless SPs and all 4 of them beat flawed programs by Stephane and Brian. Again, it must be reiterated, the quad jump is not everything. The most important thing in the SP is to get your levels up on all the components and skate cleanly. Save the quad attempts for the LP. Just my opinions.

 

[Buttercup]

Actually, the quad combination in Joubert's 2008 SP helped keep him in the picture despite the fall on the triple lutz - with the GOEs I believe it was worth over 14 points. I think the important thing in the SP is not to throw away points by - a. doing less than you can or b. doing more than you can and screwing it up. If someone can do quad combinations, why on earth do them only in the LP, which demands much more energy and focus? That's makes absolutely no sense. A skater should try to maximize points throughout an event - perhaps if Takahashi had done so in the 2007 SP we wouldn't be having this debate.

I don't expect everyone to enjoy Joubert's programs - I think the cool thing in the men's is that there's so much variety in style and approach that there's something for all of us. But to paint him as a one-trick guy is not fair, IMO.

 

[evplu]

I don't expect everyone to enjoy Joubert's programs - I think the cool thing in the men's is that there's so much variety in style and approach that there's something for all of us. But to paint him as a one-trick guy is not fair, IMO.[/QUOTE]

This is exatly what I´m thinking!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Being a _huge_ fan of Daisuke's skating, I disagree. In 2007 he wasn't perfect in SP, and he did have a hand down on the quad in LP. Yes, Brian Joubert skated one of his carefully calculated uninspired LPs, so what

Well, it's a LOT more than "so what" to me. People should be graded only on their performances given in the competition that is being judged.

Daisuke had a shaky 3-3 in the SP and a hand down in the LP. Joubert had a hand down in the SP, downgraded 2 jumps in the LP, and downgraded 2 spins in the LP. If you look at the total of what they did in the whole competition, Takahashi was really just as strong technically and also had superior presentation. Which, for me, pretty clearly means he deserved Gold.

In 2008 Daisuke had a mistake in SP, and a flawed LP. He shoudn't have done that 2T in the last combo, either.

The 2T is irrelevant. Fact is that he did a clean Triple Lutz. The jump should have been marked; who cares if he added an extra 2T to the end. Yeah, Daisuke skated "less clean" than Weir, but if that is the sole determining factor in grading skaters then what is the point in having any judging system at all? Just count the mistakes and among the supposed "top skaters" who made the least, rank them. I believe Takahashi's presentation in both the SP and LP was stronger and that his LP was far more difficult. For me, those qualities outweigh the mistakes he made when you compare to what Weir was able to deliver.

-----

(while it's at least something to talk about the recent competitions yet again, I do hope some posters start discussing a few of the competitions that are a bit further back in history )

 

[Hsuhs]

Daisuke had a shaky 3-3 in the SP and a hand down in the LP. Joubert had a hand down in the SP, downgraded 2 jumps in the LP, and downgraded 2 spins in the LP. If you look at the total of what they did in the whole competition, Takahashi was really just as strong technically and also had superior presentation. Which, for me, pretty clearly means he deserved Gold.

How were Brian's jumps in the LP downgraded? I don't see any <'s in the protocol. He didn't underrotate them. And he had a positive GOE on every single of them. As for the superior presentation, Daisuke had a slightly higher total PCS in the free program. And I've never heard of downgraded spins. Brian just did what he thought was enough, and he was right.

The 2T is irrelevant

.
No, it's relevant, it's in the rules. And the rules are the same for everyone. Had Johnny done a 4th combo, he would have been penalized the same way. But he didn't and squeezed in for a medal. Lucky him.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just think that Daisuke's perfectly capable of skating two strong programs and winning medals he deserves.

 

[Blades of Passion]

How were Brian's jumps in the LP downgraded? I don't see any <'s in the protocol. He didn't underrotate them. And I've never heard of downgraded spins.

Not underrotation, he downgraded the difficulty of two of his jumping passes (ie - performing easier jumps). Ditto for the spins - his last two were only level 1. He didn't put much effort into them, they were just afterthoughts that didn't add anything into the program and only seemed to be there because, well, you're supposed to have 4 spins and it's best not to leave elements out. So, if you look at all of his technical content in total (with GoE), it's really not greater than the total amount from Takahashi.

No, it's relevant, it's in the rules. And the rules are the same for everyone. Had Johnny done a 4th combo, he would have been penalized the same way.

I've talked about this before. I don't pay attention to horrible, incorrectly written rules when judging competitions objectively (which is the point of the thread). That CoP clause regarding extra combination jumps isn't at all the same as other rules which you have listen to, even if you disagree with them - such as the requirements for levels in footwork. Skaters plan their footwork based around the rules given to them and thus you must judge the level of the footwork based upon the rules, not how you feel the rule should actually be.

Accidentally adding an extra double toeloop into your program and losing 7+ points for it is hardly the same, however. That is totally a case of poor writing which misinterprets the true intent. It's an entrapment of the innocent. Which does not hold up in my court of law. The extra double toeloop didn't hurt anybody or do anything wrong. Simply disregard it.

I mean, really, come on now. Please find one person who can honestly tell me that they believe adding an extra double toe onto the end of a jump should be penalized with greater severity than if the skater had instead fallen on the jump. If we use our brains, the answer should be clear.

 

[Buttercup]

I've talked about this before. I don't pay attention to horrible, incorrectly written rules when judging competitions objectively (which is the point of the thread). That CoP clause regarding extra combination jumps isn't at all the same as other rules which you have listen to, even if you disagree with them - such as the requirements for levels in footwork. Skaters plan their footwork based around the rules given to them and thus you must judge the level of the footwork based upon the rules, not how you feel the rule should actually be.

Accidentally adding an extra double toeloop into your program and losing 7+ points for it is hardly the same, however. That is totally a case of poor writing which misinterprets the true intent. It's an entrapment of the innocent. Which does not hold up in my court of law. The extra double toeloop didn't hurt anybody or do anything wrong. Simply disregard it.

Entrapment of the innocent??? Wow, that's melodramatic. How are skaters being entrapped? Are they somehow being tricked into doing extra combinations?

Look, you may not like this rule. But it exists, it has not been re-written, and as such it must be applied - equally to all skaters. You can ignore it, because you are not judging competitions. The people who are judging do need to actually follow the rules as written, so as much as it may upset you, it affects the results. Plushenko lost the GP Final five years ago because he threw in an extra combination, and skaters still haven't learned to pay attention to what they are doing, knowing the penalty?

As Hsuhs wrote, Daisuke Takahashi is perfectly capable of winning based on his skating. But to do so he needs to do well in both parts of the competition. And he did not do well in the 2007 SP and the 2008 LP. That's not Brian Joubert's fault.