The Medalists thread, part 2 - MEN

[Blades of Passion]

Look, you may not like this rule. But it exists and as such it must be applied - equally to all skaters.

Under the exact rules of ISU at that time, yes. But that's not the purpose of the thread. I am asking people to judge for themselves. When we study history, we see things in a different perspective than many people did during the given time period. Just because a black person was sent to prison for deciding to sit on a different part of the bus in 1955, that doesn't mean we still look at that act as a crime now in the future. Nothing can change what happened there, just as nothing can change Takahashi losing the 2008 World Figure Skating Bronze Medal because of a very poorly written rule. But, by using our own judgment rather than simply agreeing with the status quo of the time, we uncover truths.

As Hsuhs wrote, Daisuke Takahashi is perfectly capable of winning based on his skating. But to do so he needs to do well in both parts of the competition. And he did not do well in the 2007 SP and the 2008 LP. That's not Brian Joubert's fault.

Takahashi certainly did well in the 2007 SP. Not as well as Joubert but, then, Joubert didn't do as well as Takahashi in the LP. And that certainly is Joubert's fault. The extent to which Takahashi was better in the LP exceeds the extent to which Joubert was better in the SP, imo. Which means that Takahashi deserved Gold. This certainly shouldn't be confusing; how many times have we seen someone win the Gold Medal after not being the leader in the Short Program?

Also, let's make sure we understand something correctly - you don't need to do anything specifically (such as "skating well in both the SP and LP") to win a certain medal. You win a medal by doing better overall than the people below you when considering both phases of the competition. It is my judgment that Takahashi deserved 1st place in 2007 and 3rd place in 2008 when you consider what he accomplished in the SP + LP in comparison to his competitors. I can provide scoring details if that would help to illuminate my rankings.

 

[Buttercup]

I think comparing skating results to the Jim Crow south is not really necessary to make your point.

I'm not confused by your argument. I just disagree that the gap in the LP was bigger than the difference for the SP. Daisuke Takahashi made mistakes in 2007, in the SP and LP. And not just on jumps - his spins were mostly level 3, whereas Joubert had weaker spins in the LP but level 4s in the SP. Earlier in this thread, museksk8r suggested that skaters should save the quads for their LPs. I think Joubert's results support my contention that a skater should do them in the SP as well. Don't throw away points, and you're in a good position the next day. And if your closest competitors both concede those points to begin with (by planning a 3-3 in the short) and not perform as well as they can, reap the benefits by not having to go all-out in the LP. Joubert's base value for the 2007 SP was the highest in the field. For a guy returning from injury, that was a good strategy.

At the level of skating I've come to expect from the men, chances are a skater will need to do fairly well in both parts of an event - maybe not pristine-clean skates like Buttle this year, but with strong content and generally good execution throughout. Joubert didn't skate his best in the 2007 LP, but he had a quad, and three combinations in the second half, and level 3 step sequences, plus positive GOEs on everything, and with his stronger SP, it was enough. Dai did skate two great programs at the 2008 4CC, and he can do it again. When he does, he'll deserve to win.

As always, I want to see the best guy win (preferrably, Brian, Verner, or Weir, in that order), not the one with the fewest mistakes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not confused by your argument. I just disagree that the gap in the LP was bigger than the difference for the SP. Daisuke Takahashi made mistakes in 2007, in the SP and LP. And not just on jumps - his spins were mostly level 3, whereas Joubert had weaker spins in the LP but level 4s in the SP.

I'm not sure why you're so hooked on saying Takahashi made mistakes in the SP and LP; Joubert made mistakes in both the SP and LP as well. I should also reiterate that it was the artistic side (program components) where I feel Takahashi really pulled ahead and should have been scored much higher in comparison.

As for the disagreement about the gap, that's completely fine! People are not going to agree all the time. That's the idea anyway. I'd really love for you to do a list and share your opinions with us about many other competitions beyond 2008 and 2007. And don't stop with the the Men's thread! Check out the thread for the ladies as well (a link is located in the first post of this thread).

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not sure why you're so hooked on saying Takahashi made mistakes in the SP and LP; Joubert made mistakes in both the SP and LP as well. I should also reiterate that it was the artistic side (program components) where I feel Takahashi really pulled ahead and should have been scored much higher in comparison.

I don't think Brian made mistakes in the LP, other than those two spins - I'm not even sure those were mistakes. I do think he skated conservatively, but that struck me as planned - his own comments suggest so as well. As for the SP, Brian's mistake was smaller, and his base value higher. The PCS is of course more subjective.

As for the disagreement about the gap, that's completely fine! People are not going to agree all the time. That's the idea anyway. I'd really love for you to do a list and share your opinions with us about many other competitions beyond 2008 and 2007. And don't stop with the the Men's thread! Check out the thread for the ladies as well (a link is located in the first post of this thread).

I'm not really a list type of person, and I don't have as vivid a memory of past events as some of the other posters do. If I had to pick a questionnable podium in a major, I'd say one can make an argument that Alexander Abt should have beaten Alexei Yagudin at 2002 Europeans. But the thread is Olys/Worlds...

I'm not a huge fan of ladies' skating. I never got Michelle Kwan (heresy, I know) and in general I think the men's competitions are more exciting to watch and more diverse in terms of style.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't think Brian made mistakes in the LP, other than those two spins - I'm not even sure those were mistakes. I do think he skated conservatively, but that struck me as planned

Skating conservatively is a mistake. Leaving content out and performing without inspiration/passion/artfulness (whatever you want to call it) is a reduction in points in exactly the same way that a palpable mistake, such as putting a hand down on a jump, is a reduction. Everything is worth something and when you don't skate your best, you're losing points somewhere.

Also, I would settle for a Europeans listing. That would be more than most anyone else has contributed. LOL. ( )

 

[Buttercup]

Skating conservatively is a mistake. Leaving content out and performing without inspiration/passion/artfulness (whatever you want to call it) is a reduction in points in exactly the same way that a palpable mistake, such as putting a hand down on a jump, is a reduction. Everything is worth something and when you don't skate your best, you're losing points somewhere.

I disagree, to an extent. My thoughts on playing it safe in the SP are by now, um, obvious, I guess? But the LP, because it's longer and more demanding, is another matter. If a skater does not feel he can skate its hardest version cleanly, I'm good with a conservative skate. In that case, I view it as good tactics, not as a mistake, and certainly more pleasing to watch than a performance filled with errors and falls. The results will likely be better as well. There were skaters at 2008 Worlds who had very high base values but the GOEs and/or falls knocked them right down.

You might recall that in 2007, Brian Joubert suffered a foot injury that kept him from training fully right up until Worlds. I don't think he could have skated his LP at the level of difficulty he did at CoR - and really, he still had quite a bit of content. As for passion and/or inspiration, I agree it wasn't one of his more exciting skates, but it wasn't like he was Brian The Soulless Quad Guy.

Also, I would settle for a Europeans listing.

I'm actually good with the podiums for the years I've watched. I missed 2001 because I couldn't get Eurosport that year, and 2008 because they were showing soccer. Evil, evil decision. :scowl:

 

[Blades of Passion]

You might recall that in 2007, Brian Joubert suffered a foot injury that kept him from training fully right up until Worlds.

Unfortunate, but completely irrelevant with regards to judging a competition. You get graded on the performance given, not on sentiment or clout. Ideally.

 

[Buttercup]

Unfortunate, but completely irrelevant with regards to judging a competition. You get graded on the performance given, not on sentiment or clout. Ideally.

But my point was that due to his injury and lack of training, the conservative approach with the scaled back content was tactically appropriate and not a mistake, as you have characterized it. That's not to do with the performance being good or not; the question I'm addressing is if it was a smart decision to be cautious; also, whether or not it enabled him to give the best performance - taking into account how the judging works - at the time of the event. I say yes.

IMHO, mistakes are either: a. errors in execution or b. planning content that won't be enough or c. planning content you can't do, thus ensuring falls, GOEs, and a generally unappealing performance.

ETA: This argument applies not only to Joubert. For instance, I understand that KvdP deliberately skated his LP at worlds with low-level step sequences and left out any quad attempt to avoid putting extra stress on his hip.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well skaters obviously shouldn't be doing things with a high risk of major injury. Although, again, not doing something IS a reduction in score. If you can't do certain jumps that are needed to win a competition because you're injured, that's sadly just too bad. Sport is sport.

Several of Brian's actions - the level 1 spins, doing a double axel instead of the 8th Triple - were simply lazy, though. Yes, these are mistakes. Not by error, but by choice (we weren't thinking the same thing when I said mistake; mistake and error are different even though they are used interchangeably in every day talk). Downgrading his second Quad to a Triple was understandable but, again, it was a mistake if he truly wanted to get a high enough score to obtain the Gold Medal in the case of another top finisher in the SP delivering an amazing LP.

Clearly you still think he did enough, but I don't. I believe it's a huge sham that Takahashi's LP was marked as only .28 better than Joubert's for the overall presentation score. Lambiel's legendary program didn't score too much higher either. Horrible judging. (although I think part of that is due to most of the judges not understanding how to use the "second mark" under CoP, especially with regards to how it relates mathematically to the technical score)

 

[seadysue]

I'm not going to comment on the whole list, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here (or pit Russian vs. US skaters), but I really feel Todd should have been the silver medalist at 2001 Worlds. Alexei had a very flawed free skate (was he injured at the time? - I don't remember). I know Todd did not have a consistent quad through his eligible years, but rest of his "1492" program was spot on. Actually he had a very strong competition through all three phases (I'll never understand the mark of the judge who put him 7th (!) :sheesh: after the short program).

Re: 1994 Olympics - I had hoped that Elvis would win (with all due respect to Alexei Urmanov), but justice was done a month later at Worlds. arty:

Alexei had a foot injury.