The Most Hyped Skater

[R.D.]

Well...

(Mainly Kimmie though, not so much the others as there have not been too many articles about them but there's been a lot of fan talk about them. So that's more fan commentary in that sense. We'll have to wait a couple years to see what she achieves.)

ETA: I've been thinking now, and really, what has Cohen achieved over the past four years? This is where it gets subjective. Some might consider her achievements (3 Nat silvers, 2 world silvers, a GP title) to be pretty impressive. Others will look at that and say she could have had a world gold and two National titles, and say she's underachieved. It's all about relativity and opinion here. Now, throw in the hype factor. Did she really deserve all the attention she got back in the day? A lot of her "achievements" came AFTER the brunt of the hype. So in one case I'd say you're right. People hyped her up due only to her talent even though she really was just starting out. (However, I'd also say that she most likely caught people's attention in the 2000 Nats short program, just like Kimmie caught people's eyes in the 2005 Nats long with her 3A.) But there's no right answer. It's up to the fan and the skater to decide if they consider themselves successful or not.

 

[gezando]

There are different kinds of hype:
Media hype, fans hype and self hype.

Taken all of the above into consideration Cohen is the most hyped IMO. I can still remember when Sarah and Cohen were competing against each other, at the beginning of every season, Cohen fans said the same stuff over and over, how Cohen would kick Sarah's behind, and Sarah would eat Cohen dust.

When it comes to media hype, we all know about all the hype coming from uncle Dick and aunt Peggy.

Self hype: Cohen and team have been drumming that up too. At the beginning of 03 - 04 season Cohen was quoted in the press that she thought her programs were so superior to others skaters "too choreographed and too chiseled" programs.

A skaters achievement is often judged relative to the hype, e.g. Tara was hyped big time, but she lived up to the hype. Relative to her achievement, so far Cohen has not. In some ways a skater's achievement is judged relative to other skaters in his / her country. If Cohen skates for Mexico for example, I am sure her world silver would seem to be a huge deal. She skates for the USA, and in 3/4 past olympics, the lady OGM were Americans. Sarah was singled out by Cohen's fans as so inferior that she was supposed to eat Cohen's dust. Oh well, skategods had a different plan.

 

[R.D.]

I can still remember when Sarah and Cohen were competing against each other, at the beginning of every season, Cohen fans said the same stuff over and over, how Cohen would kick Sarah's behind, and Sarah would eat Cohen dust.

I certainly remember the Sarah/Sasha debates pre-2003 season. But it went the other way, too- Hughes fans saying that Cohen couldn't stand a chance. Mainly though it was even debate on general skating forums. I don't remember too much one-sided-ness on the issue.

Cohen and team have been drumming that up too. At the beginning of 03 - 04 season Cohen was quoted in the press that she thought her programs were so superior to others skaters "too choreographed and too chiseled" programs.

Can you find me that article on the web? I don't remember her saying any of that.

A skaters achievement is often judged relative to the hype, e.g. Tara was hyped big time, but she lived up to the hype. Relative to her achievement, so far Cohen has not. In some ways a skater's achievement is judged relative to other skaters in his / her country. If Cohen skates for Mexico for example, I am sure her world silver would seem to be a huge deal. She skates for the USA, and in 3/4 past olympics, the lady OGM were Americans. Sarah was singled out by Cohen's fans as so inferior that she was supposed to eat Cohen's dust. Oh well, skategods had a different plan.

It's definitely unfortunate. That said, I'm not sure if the hype had a negative effect on Cohen's success (or lack of it, if you're one of those skeptics). Now Kimmie is finding herself in a similar situation. She really hasn't had much of a chance to prove herself, she's had little to no international experience, and she's already being considered a contender for the OGM???

P.S. About Sarah "eating Cohen's dust"- you could argue that it happened at Worlds 2003 and at the spring pro-am- Hughes really suffered after her strong 2nd place Nats finish (where Cohen basically "blew it"), placing 6th and last, respectively.

 

[gezando]

I certainly remember the Sarah/Sasha debates pre-2003 season. But it went the other way, too- Hughes fans saying that Cohen couldn't stand a chance. Mainly though it was even debate on general skating forums. I don't remember too much one-sided-ness on the issue.

I remember what was post here at GS.

Can you find me that article on the web? I don't remember her saying any of that.

Nope, I do not save any articles on any skaters.

. That said, I'm not sure if the hype had a negative effect on Cohen's success or lack of it

This thread is not about success, it is about who is the most hyped skater, and IMO Cohen is the most hyped skater.

About Sarah "eating Cohen's dust"- you could argue that it happened at Worlds 2003 and at the spring pro-am- Hughes really suffered after her strong 2nd place Nats finish where Cohen basically "blew it", placing 6th and last, respectively.

Maybe you want to argue that Sarah ate Cohen dust, but I won't and IMO looking at their overall career achievement, Sarah most certainly did not eat Cohen dust. Actually Cohen ate Sarah dust at Olys 02 big time.

 

[R.D.]

Nope, I do not save any articles on any skaters.

Very well. I'll take your comment then with a LARGE grain of salt.

This thread is not about success, it is about who is the most hyped skater, and IMO Cohen is the most hyped skater.

It's perfectly fine to think that way. It's your opinion, and I do not hold that against you. That said, at this point in time I do not agree, and have to go with Kimmie (or Kwan if it's overall hype, and NOT relative to achievement). Two years ago before Kimmie I would definitely have said Cohen though.

Maybe you want to argue that Sarah ate Cohen dust, but I won't and IMO looking at their overall career achievement, Sarah most certainly did not eat Cohen dust. Actually Cohen ate Sarah dust at Olys 02 big time.

I didn't say I wanted to argue it (what's up with all this assuming and jumping to conclusions?!) but my intention was just to point out that Sarah did not beat Sasha in EVERY competition. Once again, you are entitled to your own opinion. I'm just expressing a different viewpoint, and- here's the thing- I DO NOT claim that statement to be MY opinion.

 

[R.D.]

Actually I do not like to use the term "eating Cohen's dust" here because it infers that Cohen was light-years ahead of Sarah, which simply was not the case. However, after the 2003 Nats, the question of who was the better skater (in terms of placement) began to shift.

 

[gezando]

Very well. I'll take your comment then with a LARGE grain of salt.

I remember what I read, whether you believe or not, large or small grain of salt, I really don't care.

Kwan if it's overall hype, and NOT relative to achievement

If you are talking about the present, no one has hyped Kwan to win anything this olys season. Definitely overall relative to her achievement, Kwan is not the most hyped, besides if she was hyped in the past, she mostly lived up to it. Cohen OTOH was hyped to win jr worlds 00, and placed 6th. She self hyped to have programs better than other skaters and was beat by Arakawa at worlds that season.

Sarah did not beat Sasha in EVERY competition.

Sarah did not beat Cohen in every competition, in fact it is interesting to see how USA judges traditionally and IMO robbed Sarah and pay Cohen in nationals, then Sarah would beat Cohen in GP events. So Cohen beat Sarah in world 03, but that was definitely not Oly calibre.

 

[R.D.]

I remember what I read, whether you believe or not, large or small grain of salt, I really don't care.

Neither do I.

If you are talking about the present, no one has hyped Kwan to win anything this olys season.

True. But that doesn't mean that even when kwan was doing "poorly" in the QR at Worlds 05, she got a whole lot of attention. Whether it was deserved or not depends on the person. I'll refrain from commenting on that as I don't have a real opinion on that issue.

Sarah did not beat Cohen in every competition, in fact it is interesting to see how USA judges traditionally and IMO robbed Sarah and pay Cohen in nationals, then Sarah would beat Cohen in GP events. So Cohen beat Sarah in world 03, but that was definitely not Oly calibre.

Pay Cohen? I don't follow the logic of your statement here. And Hughes placed above Cohen at 03 Nats as well. In addition to that, I'd say Worlds is up there with the major events. It may not have the prestige that the Olympic FS event does, but it's still a major competition. And Cohen DID beat Sarah there.

 

[gezando]

Pay Cohen? I don't follow the logic of your statement here. And Hughes placed above Cohen at 03 Nats as well. In addition to that, I'd say Worlds is up there with the major events. It may not have the prestige that the Olympic FS event does, but it's still a major competition. And Cohen DID beat Sarah there.

IMO Sarah wuz robbed in nationals 00, and 02, but I will calculate the net dust eating according to official record.

Well lets look at their overall head to head competitions:

Cohen beat Sarah in nats in season 00, and 02. Sarah beat Cohen in all their head to head GP events, e.g COR, SA, Lalique.
Sarah beat Cohen in nationals 03, and Olys.
Cohen beat Sarah world 03. If we have to collect all the dust and put that on a scale, I believe the net result is Cohen ate a lot more dust than Sarah. BTW, I don't count cheesefest pro am competitions.

edited to add

True. But that doesn't mean that even when kwan was doing "poorly" in the QR at Worlds 05, she got a whole lot of attention

Interesting choice of words "attention". Hype is not just attention. IIRC, not too many people were saying Kwan would win world 05 either. Attention is not quite the same as hype IMO

 

[R.D.]

IMO Sarah wuz robbed in nationals 00, and 02, but I will calculate the net dust eating according to official record.

Well lets look at their overall head to head competitions:

Cohen beat Sarah in nats in season 00, and 02. Sarah beat Cohen in all their head to head GP events, e.g COR, SA, Lalique.
Sarah beat Cohen in nationals 03, and Olys.
Cohen beat Sarah world 03. If we have to collect all the dust and put that on a scale, I believe the net result is Cohen ate a lot more dust than Sarah. BTW, I don't count cheesefest pro am competitions.

Whew. Now let's put all those words into simple statistics.

Cohen's victories against Sarah (going by your list): 3 (make it 4 for the pro-am)

Sarah's Victories against Sasha: 5

So, not counting the pro-am, going by your list it's 3 Cohen victories vs 5 Hughes victories. I'll leave it to you to determine whether that constitutes "eating Cohen's dust" or not, but there you have it- the raw numbers.

 

[gezando]

You can’t possibly be serious by including pro ams in this equation. If you want to do that then Kwan won more pro ams in her career than any of her competitors.

You can’t possibly be serious to count numbers of wins 3 vs 5 as if a national win carries the same weight as an Olympic win.

So lets calculate the net dust.

Cohen beat Sarah in 2 nationals, and Sarah beat her in one, so net result is, there is some dust added to Sarah’s pan.

Comparing large international events: Olys vs world
Sarah beat Cohen at olys, and Cohen beat Sarah at worlds, but since olys is more important than world, so the net result is there is a huge heap of dust added to Cohen’s pan.

Sarah beat Cohen in at least 3 international GP events. COR, SA, and Lalique, so 3 more huge servings of dust onto Cohen’s pan.

Net result, IMO Cohen ate Sarah dust overall

 

[R.D.]

You can’t possibly be serious by including pro ams in this equation. If you want to do that then Kwan won more pro ams in her career than any of her competitors.

You can’t possibly be serious to count numbers of wins 3 vs 5 as if a national win carries the same weight as an Olympic win.

So lets calculate the net dust.

Cohen beat Sarah in 2 nationals, and Sarah beat her in one, so net result is, there is some dust added to Sarah’s pan.

Comparing large international events: Olys vs world
Sarah beat Cohen at olys, and Cohen beat Sarah at worlds, but since olys is more important than world, so the net result is there is a huge heap of dust added to Cohen’s pan.

Sarah beat Cohen in at least 3 international GP events. COR, SA, and Lalique, so 3 more huge servings of dust onto Cohen’s pan.

Net result, IMO Cohen ate Sarah dust overall

Whatever. To me, a win is a win. Doesn't matter where it occurs. If you want to talk fair, and want to talk in terms of how often each skater was beaten, we have to count ALL events. IMO, the prestige of the event is NOT a factor in determining who "ate dust".

It looks like we are at a fork in the road. I just can't believe why I should factor in prestige here. I imagine the same goes for you with my view. So looks like we part our separate ways here...

 

[OwenEvans]

I just have to step out lurkdom...

I think the most hyped skater was Tara....but she did live up to it in the end.

PS - Geez Gezando, after reading many, many of your posts over the years, It seems every and anything to do with Sasha Cohen gets right up your nose. Is it her personally or her ubers (or both) that have resulted in your (IMO) obvious dislike of her? Anyways, I can imagine steam coming out of your ears right now, so to placate you, IMO, I think Sasha is without doubt 2nd on the list of most hyped.

 

[R.D.]

Geez Gezando, after reading many, many of your posts over the years, It seems every and anything to do with Sasha Cohen gets right up your nose. Is it her personally or her ubers (or both) that have resulted in your (IMO) obvious dislike of her? Anyways, I can imagine steam coming out of your ears right now, so to placate you, IMO, I think Sasha is without doubt 2nd on the list of most hyped.

 

[R.D.]

I think the most hyped skater was Tara....but she did live up to it in the end.

I wonder...do you think this might have anything to do with all the hype now of the "next big one"? Tara arguably fit this description and met people's expectations. Do you think that indirectly, all the hype of Sasha and now Kimmie has to do with unfair expectations- that is, expecting them to be the next Tara Lipinski? Just something to contemplate.

 

[OwenEvans]

Hmmm...well, I don't think there will ever be a "next Tara Lipinski" RD, just because;

a) Tara was Tara, and in addition to being incredibly gifted, such a mature, determined and ferocious competitor as a young teen is just one in a zillion IMO

b) The age restrictions currently in place hold back the phenoms (think Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim, both of whom have more potential than Kimmie IMO and both, especially Mao, are being hyped as "ones to watch") until 16 at least.

So, no more Taras in the future....

But hype has been around forever too. In recent times, think of the "Battle of the Carmens" and "Battle of the Brians" at Calgary. Or poor Midori Ito at Albertville and how the hype from the Japanese press sort of crushed her. But still, I remember reading that New York Times piece on Tara just after she won the Olympic Festival (which was nothing really), and I thought there were incredible expectations being placed on the shoulders of this little girl, but, as I said, Tara was Tara and lived up to it. Michelle is another that has lived up to her hype, pre-Salome. Oksana Baiul was another hyped to the skies (immediately post-Lilliehammer), but, IMO, she didn't really live up to it, although I heart Oksana and could just watch her standing centre ice all day.

 

[R.D.]

Hmmm...well, I don't think there will ever be a "next Tara Lipinski" RD, just because;

a) Tara was Tara, and in addition to being incredibly gifted, such a mature, determined and ferocious competitor as a young teen is just one in a zillion IMO

b) The age restrictions currently in place hold back the phenoms (think Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim, both of whom have more potential than Kimmie IMO and both, especially Mao, are being hyped as "ones to watch") until 16 at least.

So, no more Taras in the future....

That's an interesting take on the situation.

I do think that Tara's success led to higher expectations of the next big "up-and-comers", like Cohen and now Meissner. While the hype may have worked in Tara's favor, it seemed to undo a less seasoned competitor like Cohen. I can't help but wonder if her career would have been any different if she were just left alone and allowed to do her own thing. And I'm just sorry to witness this happening to Meissner. Can she handle the extra attention?

But there is also a downside. Take Beatrisa Liang, which is thought of by many American skating fans to be the most underappreciated top-10 skater at the Nationals. Do you think that if she received all the hype instead of Kimmie, that things would be any different? In other words, I think when you are hyped you tend to get the judges' attention. Would the judges put her higher for the same skate? (And here's another good example of me not liking judged events being called "sports".)

So the upside of getting hyped is that the judges have their eyes on you. The downside is that if you don't meet these sometimes outrageous expectations, you get dumped on. I believe this is what happened to Cohen during 2004, especially at Worlds where many people were saying she blew an opportunity to win rather than recognizing that it was her highest world finish to date. When the hype bubble bursts (which happens when you don't meet expectations) things get nasty.

Oh yeah, another thing. I think it's ok to receive all the attention once you win a big one (think Hughes with her surprise victory in Salt Lake), but before, when you are just "potential", any kind of hype is just premature.
JMO.

 

[gezando]

Whatever. To me, a win is a win. Doesn't matter where it occurs.

If you want to go by a win is a win, then Kw(an won more competitions including the pro ams , (competitions that seems to be so important now) than any skater of her generation, so that means everyone is eating Kwan dust??

If you want to talk fair, and want to talk in terms of how often each skater was beaten, we have to count ALL events.

If you want to be fair, you should take into account the importance of the competition. IMO that is a huge factor in determining who ate dust. But by your number Cohen and Sarah wins are 4 to 5, that still means Cohen has to eat Sarah dust. If you really want to be fair, not only do you have to take into consideration the calibre of the competition, but the relative placement, e.g. Sarah beat Cohen by 3 slots in the olympics, since Sarah placed 1 and Cohen placed 4, and in world 03 Cohen placed 4 and Sarah placed 6, therefore Cohen only beat Sarah by 2 slots

 

[gezando]

I just have to step out lurkdom...

People are free to lurk and post, Geez OE it is so interesting to see a rather melodramatic entrance from you.

Anyways, I can imagine steam.........
to placate

Ah... there is no limit to what your imagination will take you. I am sipping a glass of cool lemonade right now, there is nothing steaming over here. Since this is a skating discussion board, so IMO the only ears we should be talking about are skaters ears, specifically Hughes ears vs Cohen's ears, since we are talking who is eating whose dust rightr now. JMO, Hughes ears are much more aerodynamically elegant than Cohen's ears. No wonder Hughes could sail through the ice with more speed.

You are free to placate yourself in all the la La land your imagination will take you.

On topic, being hyped is a neutral thing, Tara lived up to the hype. It is a common practice of many athletes to trash talk and self hype, Warren Sapp's QB victim list on his website is an example, if he makes good on the trash talk, then he has bragging rights, if not then the fans of the QB victim list are free to make Warren Sapp pay.

 

[R.D.]

If you want to go by a win is a win, then Kw(an won more competitions including the pro ams , (competitions that seems to be so important now) than any skater of her generation, so that means everyone is eating Kwan dust??

I thought we were comparing Cohen and Hughes here. So that means Kwan has absolutely zippity squat to do with this.

If you want to be fair, you should take into account the importance of the competition. IMO that is a huge factor in determining who ate dust. But by your number Cohen and Sarah wins are 4 to 5, that still means Cohen has to eat Sarah dust. If you really want to be fair, not only do you have to take into consideration the calibre of the competition, but the relative placement, e.g. Sarah beat Cohen by 3 slots in the olympics, since Sarah placed 1 and Cohen placed 4, and in world 03 Cohen placed 4 and Sarah placed 6, therefore Cohen only beat Sarah by 2 slots

As I said before, it's up to you to decide whether a 5-4 margin is enough to refer to as "eating dust".

If you really want to be picky about all this then factoring in placement "slots" at least makes more sense to me than the prestige of the competition. (Is this just a hidden method to make Sarah look better than she really is?) Look, in the end, yes Sarah did have more "triumphs" over Cohen than the other way around. If that in your mind is "eating dust" so be it. There you have it. Do what you want, be as picky as you want, even add up points and 6.0 scores if you want to. But I think your intention is just to get Sasha.

Now, from MY viewpoint- here's how it goes down. Cohen placed above Sarah 4 times since 2000 nats, according to the list you made. Sarah placed above Sasha 5 times since 2000 nats. So overall, Sarah was the better skater (relative to placement).

But Cohen really wasn't that far off from her all along. Cohen never placed lower than 4th, and Sarah placed first only once- and that was at the Olympics. Other than that she was second IIRC. At Worlds 2003 then Sarah was 6th and Cohen was 4th. At the pro-am afterwards Sarah was 8th and Cohen was ?th. (I can't remember- was it 3rd or 4th?)

But this is MY opinion. Obviously yours is different, and IMO biased in Sarah's favor. But that's just the way I think about it.