The New Judging System: More Harm Than Good?

[Ptichka]

Maybe CoP should be kept for Dance, but the old system(or something like it, but better) go back to the rest of the fields in skating.

Interesting. IMHO the only discipline that has been hurt by CoP is dance.

 

[Spun Silver]

Not really. Under the 6.0 system the technical grades skaters could receive would often times be HUGELY varied (and unfair). Look at Slutskaya getting some 5.9's for her 2002 Olympics long program in which she was not clean and did not do a Triple/Triple combination.

Given what she actually did, a 5.9 would be flat out IMPOSSIBLE with the current rules if you converted the points into the 6.0 system. Even with very generous positive GOEs on her clean elements, I think that a 5.8 would have been the highest possible score she could have received under the CoP grading system.

I like my idea a lot actually. I do miss the 6.0 grades, even though the new system has the potential to be more fair.

~Z

Oh, OK. I realize I misunderstood you at first. I wonder if such a double scoring system could work, though.

Something that might work on TV: if the networks had their own technical specialists who assigned points to each element as it took place, showing the growing points at the bottom of the screen. At the end the networks' scoring could be compared to the judges' and might even serve to judge the judges.

But on second thought, further exposure of the subjectivity of this judged sport is probably not going to help win more fans. :disapp:

(I know Seanibu had an idea a long time ago about running totals... I don't remember the details, though.)

 

[SeaniBu]

(I know Seanibu had an idea a long time ago about running totals... I don't remember the details, though.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIqZZxmWEoI

Give it a minute to become available, I just down loaded it. It is a piece of a vid I am working on - thought I would show the Miki clip with it cuz MM verified my scoring. I didn't bother to find out the score at that position of the LP so it might be wrong but just an example. The SB works better on the top I have come to find from my original tests. I like to see the the blades.

It is barley legible on YT. Oh well. Time and running score are on the left, on right, element and possible and bonus or deduction coming up underneath.

 

[enlight78]

What if the point system was kept, but the numbers were converted into 6.0 grades?

Every decimal place within the 6.0 system would be given a certain score range depending on what type of competition it is (short program, long program, male, female). The judges would go through and grade all of the elements and then the total score each individual judge gave to a skater would dictate what 6.0 rating they receive. Each judge's individual 6.0 grade would be displayed along with the total amount of points the skater received for all the judges combined. The highest point total would still decide who wins the competition, but now the audience would have a better picture as to what is going on.

Hurray!

I'm just curious how would that work? Will 6.0 equal the highest point total possibe for short or long.

 

[gsrossano]

What if the point system was kept, but the numbers were converted into 6.0 grades?

... Each judge's individual 6.0 grade would be displayed along with the total amount of points the skater received for all the judges combined. The highest point total would still decide who wins the competition, but now the audience would have a better picture as to what is going on.

Hurray!

Yes, indeed.

I like the idea that the total points from each skater for each judge should be available, and thus the order of finish from each judge would be known. The software I use in my ocassional calculation does this for competition protocols.

Thing is, ISU doesn't want the public to have that information. At the very first Skate America after COP was introduced, the protocol of marks did list the total scores from each judge for each skater, and the press used that info to write about how many judges favored this or that skater. The following weekend at Skate Canada those numbers were deleted from the protocols, never to be seen again.

The main reason I like it, is that it is another check on the quality and believability of the judging. If the judges are using the marks correctly and consistently, then the points from each judge should roughly match, and the order of finish for each judge should roughly match. The total points from each judge can tell you that. But in the mind of the ISU, it puts attention on the individual judge (and the accountability of an individual judge) and the ISU doesn't want that. So you don't get to see when 4 of 7 judges favor one skater, and that skater loses, or if 7 judges score a skater 3rd through 10th, etc.

 

[Zuranthium]

I'm just curious how would that work? Will 6.0 equal the highest point total possibe for short or long.

For "presentation" marks I'd say a 6.0 would be given whenever the average score of all the Program Components from that judge is a 9.0/10 or higher. From there you would keep going down as the Program Component scores continue to drop (in intervals of .4, let's say).

For the technical marks you would have to come up with a point range that differs for each different competition type. For example, a 6.0 for technical merit in the Ladies' short program would have to include something like a 3Axle, 3Lutz/3Toe combination, and 3Flip as your jumps, having the highest levels on all of your other elements, and getting a +1 GOE on all of those elements. Sasha Cohen's short program at this year's World Championships had the highest level on all of her (non-jump) elements, so I'll use those point values to determine what a 6.0 would be when factoring in the jumps I named as well.

The grand total is.....

42.4. Let's just round down and call it 42 points. So far no lady has achieved that total. Mao Asada is the closest with 40.3 points at NHK this year. Of course, I've NEVER seen anyone get a 6.0 for technical merit in the short program either so that sounds realistic (although 2 of those individual judges at NHK gave her the equivilent of what I'm saying a 6.0 should be). Each .1 break point in the 6.0 grades would then be tied to each 2 point drop in the CoP score. Which means you need at least 42 points for a 6.0, 40 points for a 5.9, 38 points for a 5.8, 36 points for a 5.7, etc.

It could definitely work!

~Z

 

[gsrossano]

To properly normalizing to 6.0, you would have to pick the value for the maximum element points a skater might get for a 6.0. If you pick a number too low, some skaters might get marks of more than 6.0 in the future. If you use the maximum theoretical points, then the normalized 6.0 score will be kind of low for even the best senior skaters.

Example using jumps only.

Assuming jumps through quad Salchow, for the ladies, the maximum theoretical element points are 89.0, so if they got 44.5 element points for jumps, their "6.0" score would be 3.0. For all jumps through triple Axel, for the ladies, the maximum theoretical jump points are 71.5.

 

[gsrossano]

... Which means you need at least 42 points for a 6.0, 40 points for a 5.9, 38 points for a 5.8, 36 points for a 5.7, etc.

That means for no jump points at all the skater would get a 6.0 score of nearly 4, for doing nothing.

 

[Zuranthium]

That means for no jump points at all the skater would get a 6.0 score of nearly 4, for doing nothing.

Pretty much. It doesn't really matter though. The markings just give people an idea of what is happening. The entire 6.0 scale doesn't actually have to be utilized...nobody ever got scores under 3.0 in the old system anyway, no matter how bad the performance.

You could, however, start increasing the rate at which each .1 place in the 6.0 ratings drops as the points drop. It doesn't ever really have to go down to a 0.0, though.

~Z

 

[enlight78]

If think the COP would produce more accurate scores inline with the actual performance if there was two seperate judging panels for the TES and the PCS. That way one set of judges can just focus each part; allowing the whole program to recieve full attention.

 

[gio]

IMO, it does more harm.

1)Some elements became too common (Biellmann, the spiral with the leg forward, the doughnout spin, the catch camel). Other elements disappeared, because they are not adequately rewarded. We rarely see now Charlottes, Stag jumps, Split jumps, Tuck Axels, Delayed Axels, Illusion Spin ...

2)It doesn't reward jump difficulty adequately. If you do a Triple Axel/half loop/ Triple Flip you will receive less points than if you do these two jumps separately. It doesn't reward if a skater does a double/triple combo rather than a triple/double combo.

3)Spins are becoming ugly. Now what it counts is the difficult variation of a position. It doesn't matter if spins are travelling all around and the positions are ugly. What is important is the difficulty of the spins. We do not see anymore the simple but beautiful camels or laybecks. In a spin combo the positions are held for a little time, because skaters has to change a lot of positions to increase the level.

4)The spirals sequences look all the same. If you look the programs of the past the spirals sequences were more different. Too many spirals aren't done well, because skaters try to increase the level. The only good thing is that now skaters have to hold the spiral positions for at least 3 seconds.

5)Some step sequences aren't rewarded. For example the step sequence all on one foot that Irina did at the 2002 Olympics won't be rewarded.

6)The use of the GOE's is a lot of time arbitrary. If you look at protocols you'll notice that there are huge differences between judges. How it is possible that a judge gave +2 for a jump and another a -1 for the same jump??? So COP hasn't solved the cheating of judges.

7)The PCS scores aren't adequately given. How it is possible that Plush at Olympics received higher marks for transitions than Matthew Savoie and Shawn Sawyer? Matt and Shawn had every element preceded by transitions, but their marks for transitions were low.

8)Ice dance is loosing originality and becoming as pairs. Too many compulsory elements in the free dance!!! Too many lifts and spins, that don't have nothing to do with ice dance.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's all about points, Gio. By 2014, all the top skaters will look alike. The winners will be Monsieur Quint and Madame Quad.

Joe