The splitting event of Yu/Jin - a summary

[4everchan]

Do you think that only 2 years (for 2018) is an enough time for a new pair, say Yu/Zhang, to overcome the judges?
Indeed, in last year of 2015, Yu/Jin had taken over the 2nd place of Peng/Zhang among the Chinese team according to the PCS given by judges.
Even if Yu/Zhang will get success in 2018, can this new pair still be counted on in 2022? Considering the age of Zhang at that time.

There is a Chinese saying: kill the hen to take away the egg immediately.

I don't disagree with you... It was a gamble either way... to get a strong #2 Chinese team :

either Y/J needed to make a big statement in 2017... and place in top 6... quite unlikely just considering the Germans, the 3 Russians, the Canadians (even canada's 4th team placed ahead of the Chinese at WC) and Sui/Han.

or Zhang gets a stronger partner on SBS jumps ....

Chinese federation decided that they would go with the second option. Maybe they think it is a better gamble. They are thinking like it is a business... we are seeing more humanly....

With gambling, there is risk and reward... sometimes, the biggest risk brings the biggest reward... sometimes, one loses it all...

We will see what will happen but i think that as I said before, we all have to heal and support the athletes, all 4 of them in their next seasons.

 

[4everchan]

There's a term in Econometrics called "reverse causality". The fact that Yu/Jin are considered #3 or #4 within Team China isn't the cause of their splitting. It's because the decision-makers plan on splitting them in the first place such that they're forcefully labelled as #3 or #4 to "set the stage" for the splitting. In the international competitions last year, Yu/Jin actually fared better than Peng/Zhang. They made it to GPF on their own (twice in a row since turning senior). Peng/Zhang didn't. They got in as the 1st substitutes because Sui/Han withdraw. In GPF, both pairs made mistakes but Yu/Jin still placed ahead of Peng/Zhang. In 4CC, Yu/Jin won bronzes. Peng/Zhang were absent due to injuries. Even TSL said that they considered Yu/Jin China's #2. I bet they were not alone.

The fact that Yu/Jin are (were) considered #3 or #4 within China while they are (were) considered #2 internationally in and by itself is very telling. Suppose they did go to 2016 worlds and finished ahead of Peng/Zhang again (frankly it's quite possible ex post), that'll make justifying the split of Yu/Jin 100 times harder than it already is now.

Sure, CSA wants to put together the strongest team possible (besides Sui/Han). Yu is better than Peng in terms of jumps, okay, and Zhang is better than Jin because...? Zhang in 2006 is definitely better than Jin in 2016, but Zhang in 2016 with back injuries and totally heathy Jin in 2016? Maybe... I don't know...

Peng/Zhang were 4th in 2015 worlds. They just had a bad season last year. That's totally normal and a lot of skaters go through the same thing but come back strong the next year. But the decision-makers apparently lose all the patience.

I bolded that part of your post because that is what surprised me the most.... why dismantle a team so close to the podium... at the same time, maybe they considered that in reality, with the Germans back in the race and two absent Russian teams that year, that 4th place was probably just equivalent to a 6-7 place....

Re Reverse casuality : sure. it's definitely one way to see it. However, it brings more and more and more speculations and that tires me

 

[annesigin]

I believe PENG/JIN can become good pairs in the future and I will support them. But I still cannot be optimistic about their caree. In an interview yesterday, Chinese Fed gave negative comments on PENG and JIN's technics. It seems that they were given up mostly because of their own fault. If this is the attitude of the Fed and the coach group, how can we expect PENG/JIN to have opportunities to go to big event if even coach group doesn't support them? The coaches may consider WANG/WANG prior to YU/JIN.

For YU/ZHANG, it seems we don't need to worry sbout their spot. But how can they have stable technics and find suitable style within one year to two years? Will the judges enjoy their performance. In the worst situation, Chinese will have only one spot for 2022 Olympics. Then who will attend the Olympics?

And the split will also influence SUI/HAN of course. PENG/ZHANG can replace YU/JIN to WC because of an invisible tryout within team China. If there will be only one spot, who can make sure SUI/HAN must have a spot? Will there be another 0.06 points?

 

[bsfan]

I think P/J are basically done.

 

[lyndichee]

I bolded that part of your post because that is what surprised me the most.... why dismantle a team so close to the podium... at the same time, maybe they considered that in reality, with the Germans back in the race and two absent Russian teams that year, that 4th place was probably just equivalent to a 6-7 place....

Re Reverse casuality : sure. it's definitely one way to see it. However, it brings more and more and more speculations and that tires me

A 6-7 place finish would still get back China's 3 spots. Peng/Zhang would have placed higher had he not thrown her so carelessly and proceeded to jump without her.

I believe PENG/JIN can become good pairs in the future and I will support them. But I still cannot be optimistic about their caree. In an interview yesterday, Chinese Fed gave negative comments on PENG and JIN's technics. It seems that they were given up mostly because of their own fault. If this is the attitude of the Fed and the coach group, how can we expect PENG/JIN to have opportunities to go to big event if even coach group doesn't support them? The coaches may consider WANG/WANG prior to YU/JIN.

For YU/ZHANG, it seems we don't need to worry sbout their spot. But how can they have stable technics and find suitable style within one year to two years? Will the judges enjoy their performance. In the worst situation, Chinese will have only one spot for 2022 Olympics. Then who will attend the Olympics?

And the split will also influence SUI/HAN of course. PENG/ZHANG can replace YU/JIN to WC because of an invisible tryout within team China. If there will be only one spot, who can make sure SUI/HAN must have a spot? Will there be another 0.06 points?

The Fed is incredibly on harsh on them I agree. I honestly can't picture a future for Peng/Jin.

If you look at any articles in the past, it was only Zhang they cared about. The girl in the partnership was arbitrary. When I read Sui/Han articles, they talked about them as a unit/pair.

Sui/Han won't lose the spot as long as they continue to be consistently on the world podium. With 2 quads, they are undeniably the team with the most potential. Had they not struggled so much in the long program, the world title would definitely be theirs.

I think P/J are basically done.

That is my thought too. At least for the next Olympics. World spots have already been decided for next year.

 

[Violet Bliss]

In all Zhang's interviews I've come across, e.g. the following from the article dated 2016-02-04, originally linked and selectively translated and twisted for the sake of portraying him as selfish, egotistical, uncaring and wishing for a young small partner,

张昊和前舞伴张丹曾是中国花样滑冰双人滑著名的“三驾马车”之一，两人搭档14年，为中国花样滑冰带领荣誉无数。然而，在2012年，张丹宣布退役，张昊的搭档变成了小他11岁的彭程。谈及两位搭档的不同之处，张昊说：“我跟张丹搭档了14年，从小一起训练，在配合默契程度上很高，可能一个月不练或者半个月不练，搭上手我们可以照样滑好。跟彭程就不一样，毕竟搭档时间比较短，彭程的年龄也比较小，大赛经验不够丰富，心理和心态不够稳定。”

对手不会等你成长，张昊明白这个道理。在国外选手普遍提高难度的情况下，张昊/彭程也主动做出改变。张昊透露，他跟彭程尝试过两个抛四周。在过往的比赛中，他们尝试过两次这个动作，但是都失败了。张昊说：“这个动作存在一定的风险性，尤其是抛跳的时候，对女伴造成的压力很大。我们现在会尽量去准备，如果说抛四周做不出来的话，我们要保证三周的质量”

Zhang Hao and former partner Zhang Dan were one member of the famous troika of Chinese Pairs skating. The two were in partnership for 14 years, bringing numerous honors to Chinese figure skating. Then, in 2012, Zhang Dan announced her retirement, and Peng Chen, 11 years Zhang Hao's junior, became his partner. When talking about the difference between his partners, Zhang Hao said, "I partnered with Dan for 14 years, training together since when we were very young, so we had a very high level of connection. We were able to skate together again as well as before even after not training for a month or half a month. It's very different with Peng Chen. After all, Chen is younger in age, without a lot of major competition experience, so her mental and emotional states are not so stable."

Your rivals will not sit and wait for you to grow, Zhang Hao knows this well. In the current situation with foreign skaters generally raising technical difficulty, P/Z have also taken their own initiative to make changes. Zhang revealed that he and Peng had tried two kinds of quad throws but failed their two attempts at competitions. Zhang said,"These maneuvers involve definite risks and the pressure is especially great on the female partner during the throw. We are now preparing ourselves as best we can. If we are unable to perform successful quads, then we must assure the quality of our triples."

This is typical of his remarks about his partnerships. The emphasis is always on the connection, with never a mention on size or technical levels. Peng's youth and inexperience are certainty not considered desired qualities. I'm sure if Zhang could have his wish, his ideal partner will be Dan without the increased height and weight.

Unless Zhang and their coach has decided the chemistry between him and Peng will never work, I find it difficult to believe he would want a change at this stage, with the expectation to work out a new partnership within a year and to finish in top 6 at Worlds.

As I mentioned before, Yao and Zhao were strong believers in committed partnerships with great success to show for it. In fact, when Zhao first teamed up with young Shen who was picked for him by Yao, their different technical levels caused a lot of frustration until Yao made Zhao adjust himself to Shen. Right now, less than two years before the next Olympics, with the 2022 Olympics to be staged in Beijing, Sui/Han are the undisputed leading Chines Pairs and real medal contenders, with 3 Pairs behind them that are not clearly differentiated or challenging as a top Pairs in the world, do the decision makers feel it urgent to get drastic so there would be another top Pairs beside S/H rather than one excellent and 3 wannabe Pairs from China? It is a gamble with casualties.

 

[icedinn]

The fed might as well have shot themselves in the foot. Zhang is almost going to be 40 in 2022. They seem to have stars in their eyes when it comes to him. Poor, poor, yu/jin.

 

[SarahSynchro]

I just realized via Google searching about all this drama that Zhao Hongbo was 36 when he won gold in 2010... I think that makes him the oldest gold medal winning pair skater ever? I guess Zhang Hao is hoping to beat that record, though the odds of that actually happening seem slim to none.

I have the unfortunate feeling that neither of these two teams will be at the Olympics, along with Kirsten MT and Mike (since we're talking about partner splitting drama) ...

 

[bwayrose7]

Taking away all the politics and the blame games and everything else, all I can think about is Xiaoyu Yu, who is the one party we can ascertain for certain was against this split from the beginning, whose wishes were disregarded utterly, who was taken from a content and trusting partnership and instead forced into a partnership which she did not want and likely does not trust. To know that your opinions about your own life (and personal safety) do not matter if they go against those in charge...:no: I feel so bad for this poor girl, and while part of me would like to cheer for this new partnership so that all this isn't in vain, the other part of me would like them to fail miserably just so that maybe she can get out of this partnership- she has no other way out.

 

[withwings]

Yes, Dylan and Kirsten were a perfect match. They had that unique ability (as a pair ) to bring a soul to the ice and to touch the hearts of the people. This unique ability is such a real magic/gift... no one can learn it, either is given or is not given. Re Chinese.... it was not their decision to split or not to split...

I just realized via Google searching about all this drama that Zhao Hongbo was 36 when he won gold in 2010... I think that makes him the oldest gold medal winning pair skater ever? I guess Zhang Hao is hoping to beat that record, though the odds of that actually happening seem slim to none.

I have the unfortunate feeling that neither of these two teams will be at the Olympics, along with Kirsten MT and Mike (since we're talking about partner splitting drama) ...

 

[fayewong]

Based on the current information:
1、Yao and Ren（the supervisor of figure skating) is not chief conspirator of splitting.
2、the idea of splitting is proposed by pair group of China figure skating national team.
So,Who is the chief conspirator of splitting？

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yes, Dylan and Kirsten were a perfect match. They had that unique ability (as a pair ) to bring a soul to the ice and to touch the hearts of the people. This unique ability is such a real magic/gift... no one can learn it, either is given or is not given. Re Chinese.... it was not their decision to split or not to split...

This is but one of the examples of what seems to be a perfect match turning out to be not so. Fans don't really know the true nature of Pairs' off ice relationships and get blindsided when splits happen, just as we don't know what these Chinese Pairs were like in private.

Poor Narumi Takahashi had to break off her partnership with Tran, another beautiful Pair with even a Worlds medal. And the Japanese fed doesn't even pay for everything for their skaters like the Chinese fed does.

Most members of split Pairs are able to go on with new partners and continue competing, so I hope the Chinese skaters can do the same too. It's not the end of the world or their careers. The best thing for each one is future success as long as they continue to skate.

 

[formersk8ter]

Do you really think that new pair of Yu/Zhang have better chance of achieving better results than original pair of Yu/Jin? In 2018? OR even In 2022?

Yes, I think so.

 

[Giselle]

I don't think Peng/Zhang are done by any means . It's not like there are a lot of talented juniors teams in China at the moment, the last promising team was the 2 time World jr. champions Yu/Jin of course .

But yes, Worlds is out of the question for them no matter what happens on the ice, at least until 2018. They'll have the battle Wang/Wang for a spot at 4CC I guess.

 

[lauravvv]

This is but one of the examples of what seems to be a perfect match turning out to be not so. Fans don't really know the true nature of Pairs' off ice relationships and get blindsided when splits happen, just as we don't know what these Chinese Pairs were like in private.

Moore-Towers and Moscovitch did not split because of some great personal strife and discord, but because Moore-Towers wanted to go on until 2022 Olympics, while Moscovitch did not, so she decided to start anew with a different partner.

As for Yu/Jin, if you would read the post(s) at the beginning of this thread more carefully, you would understand that obviously Yu did not want to split with Jin, so it's very doubtful that they did not have a good working relationship.

 

[NanaPat]

Poor Narumi Takahashi had to break off her partnership with Tran, another beautiful Pair with even a Worlds medal. And the Japanese fed doesn't even pay for everything for their skaters like the Chinese fed does.

I had heard that the Takahashi/Tran split was Narumi's idea, not the fed's. And that she initiated the split so she could go to the Olympics, not because of any problems with Tran (except for his citizenship, of course).

 

[Alchamei]

I remember back in 2014 when Elena/Nikita and Viki/Ruslan switched partners as well, we didn't know it would be a total switch, but everything was mainly about the split of I/K. It was heartbreaking to see a magnificent ice dance team like them to part. However, as two years passed, it wasn't probably such a bad decision. While it was a difficult split and there are rumors that Elena didn't want to do it, it seems like they are too temperament for each other and match their current partners. Mainly, the federation had nothing to do with it.

This is a different case.

I thought nothing could beat the shock and disapointment from I/K split, but this crap beat the heck out of me. How is it possible that the federation has such power that they can split one very promising team and give them differen partners against their will? I have no faith in the future partnership. Why? Since it was forced like that and it's hard to get used to skating with different partner, even more when you didn't even choose that partner and don't feel any connection with them. I feel so sorry for Yu/Jin and mainly Yu, who was protesting the most and reminds me of a delicate flower that will die if not treated properly.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Moore-Towers and Moscovitch did not split because of some great personal strife and discord, but because Moore-Towers wanted to go on until 2022 Olympics, while Moscovitch did not, so she decided to start anew with a different partner.

As for Yu/Jin, if you would read the post(s) at the beginning of this thread more carefully, you would understand that obviously Yu did not want to split with Jin, so it's very doubtful that they did not have a good working relationship.

I had heard that the Takahashi/Tran split was Narumi's idea, not the fed's. And that she initiated the split so she could go to the Olympics, not because of any problems with Tran (except for his citizenship, of course).

Well, these were not perfect matches because, for one thing, they had different goals and priorities. Even incompatible citizenships.

I believe it was the Japanese fed that really needed a Pairs team for the Olympic Team Event even if there was no possibility of Narumi getting a decent Japanese partner and any decent results. Narumi would have a much better career with Mervin except for the Olympics but succumbed to her fed's pressure. Her skating career is finished. Other feds too have much power over their skaters and have exercised it to undercut their careers, e.g. by not releasing a split partner or delaying it for as long as possible.

Dylan was quite upset and Mervin was not happy either after he had tried so hard to keep the partnership, but as long as they loved skating, they continued. In both cases, they all found new partners and continue their competitive careers, though both initiators of the splits suffer more setbacks than their former partners. (It's usually easier for a male skater to find a partner than the female. Venassa Crone's partner left her and she has been lost to the skating world even with the success she had.)

China may be a big country but almost all their skaters come from the province of Harbin and there really are not so many choices when it comes to partnerships. It's unfortunate Yu has to change partner against her wish, but if she loves skating, she has at least a very strong new partner who, though much older, wants to stay competing till the 2022 home Olympics. If she too wishes to go to the Olympics, she will have to work with the new partner the best she can.

 

[SarahSynchro]

(It's usually easier for a male skater to find a partner than the female. Venassa Crone's partner left her and she has been lost to the skating world even with the success she had.)

Sorry for going off topic, but what exactly were the circumstances behind Vanessa and Paul's split?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Sorry for going off topic, but what exactly were the circumstances behind Vanessa and Paul's split?

I only know Paul decided to leave her. I can't recall much elaboration from him. Of course there were speculations.