What will 2010-11 bring for Caroline Zhang?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

How can you call Zhang a late bloomer Joe? She is actually quite the opposite. A late bloomer is starting late his / her career and reaches the best results later than the average. Caroline started her career on a high (JWC gold) and she is on a rather steep downhill trend.
She was 3rd in US 2 years ago in seniors and now she is 12. Where is the blooming, cause I am not seeing it?
And eventhough there are some technical improvements, if there is no translation in results, then all the effort is just a waste of time. At this point in time, she is facing a big uphill battle.
I think next year will be critical for her. She most likely will have no GP assignments and will need to go through qualifications like Czisny did. But if the results won't be coming along, she might be better looking after her academical career.

Herios, Much of what you say is true, but Caroline's junior events were predicated on the flexibility she showed. Flexibility had been the WOW for the Ladies spins and spirals. Flexibility is a non skating trait as are long legs; legs with more spring in them, and arms like a ballerina. Those are advantages skaters bring to skating even before they skated. I think judges are now aware of that. They make pretty pictures and higher jumps but that's natural talent and not skating talent. It's not difficult to bring these outside gifts to skating.

When it came to competitive skating in seniors, the era of flexibility was over and it was noted there was no change in speed in her skating. That was her biggest problem, imo. She now has corrected that as shown in Nats. Missing some jumps is something she has to work on, but doesn't everyone? didn't Alissa? whom I remember having jumping problems since 8 years ago.

I think Caroline has improved and next season she will be a contender. JMO.

 

[mskater93]

I think Caroline has way farther to climb to be a contender than just next season. The 2A still needs to be fixed, generation of power from basic skating still needs work, 3Lo still has the wind up (only not as pronounced), 3Lz is missing, 3F is better but has new problems (picking too far in the circle). Part of it is I think she's looking for a quick fix and that's not going to happen. She needs to use some patience towards her improvements and I really thought she should have taken the year off from Nationals as now she'll have to overcome the mental hardship of finishing poorly again.

 

[R.D.]

Zhang is still young enough that even if she doesn't make 2014, there's still 2018.

 

[krenseby]

I think Caroline has way farther to climb to be a contender than just next season. The 2A still needs to be fixed, generation of power from basic skating still needs work, 3Lo still has the wind up (only not as pronounced), 3Lz is missing, 3F is better but has new problems (picking too far in the circle). Part of it is I think she's looking for a quick fix and that's not going to happen. She needs to use some patience towards her improvements and I really thought she should have taken the year off from Nationals as now she'll have to overcome the mental hardship of finishing poorly again.

Well, it's good to compete as you refine your technique, because you haven't really mastered a new jump until you can carry it off under the pressure of competition. As for the 3Z, she can rotate it but not land it yet. As for the 3Lo, is it the one jump that she hasn't done anything about at all?

 

[PolymerBob]

I would say that even if Caroline is reworking techniques, she loses nothing by competing and getting bad results. Alissa has gotten bad results in the past, and that doesn't seem to have hurt her.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I would say that even if Caroline is reworking techniques, she loses nothing by competing and getting bad results. Alissa has gotten bad results in the past, and that doesn't seem to have hurt her.

That makes sense. Having watch Alissa since 2003 with all that spinning, I looked at Carolne with all that flesibility. It'll take a while for Caroline as it has for Alissa to be a top contender. The improvements are beginning to show. The jump technique will improve eventually.

 

[herios]

Zhang is still young enough that even if she doesn't make 2014, there's still 2018.

I will have to quote here John McEnroe:

"You cannot be serious"

 

[R.D.]

I will have to quote here John McEnroe:

"You cannot be serious"

Caroline Zhang age in 2010: 16

Zhang would-be age in 2014: 20

Zhang would-be age in 2018: 24

If you look at the age of the recent Olympic medalists (Kim, Asada notwithstanding), doesn't look too bad to me

 

[mskater93]

That makes sense. Having watch Alissa since 2003 with all that spinning, I looked at Carolne with all that flesibility. It'll take a while for Caroline as it has for Alissa to be a top contender. The improvements are beginning to show. The jump technique will improve eventually.

Alissa had much better technique to begin with on her jumps. I had seen her skate in practice when with Berlin and she was able to land a lot of things when the pressure was off but when she put pressure on herself, she tended to have her problems. What Yuka and Jason did was refine her jump technique to make her more consistent. They broke her technique back down to singles and doubles to fix the small things that were causing mechanical difficulties on her jumps. There are subtle differences in her jumps that have made them more consistent and "easy".
Caroline is in the middle of a complete overhaul (or if she isn't, she will soon be or she should be) which is totally different AND she needs to be committed to continuing the improvement in her technique as she seems impatient (moving from Tammy Gambil so soon after starting to work with her).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What ever caused Alissa's jump technique to not appear in competitions was obvious from 2003, 04, 05 etc. and lots of neg GoEs until recently. Well she seems to have ceased with the URs thanks to Jason or Yuka. URs are NOT good technique.

 

[feraina]

Maybe Caroline's career could have an arc like Cynthia Phaneuf's. PHaneuf got written off by almost everyone for many years before reviving her career.

 

[herios]

Caroline Zhang age in 2010: 16

Zhang would-be age in 2014: 20

Zhang would-be age in 2018: 24

If you look at the age of the recent Olympic medalists (Kim, Asada notwithstanding), doesn't look too bad to me

OK then, we will chat a few years later. Don't worry, I will be around and remind you when those Oly's will come around and check in with you on Caroline's status.

 

[mskater93]

What ever caused Alissa's jump technique to not appear in competitions was obvious from 2003, 04, 05 etc. and lots of neg GoEs until recently. Well she seems to have ceased with the URs thanks to Jason or Yuka. URs are NOT good technique.

Her issues were more related to nerves before. She would "short pick" her jumps (and/or pick early) in previous years which caused her to under rotate her pick jumps when she competed. Her technique was mostly correct on her jumps, just timing was off causing underrotations and falls. Alissa also would slow down some competing but you could see the ability to generate power.
Zhang has many different unrelated issues with her jumps - hammer toe (flip and Lutz), inability to control edge going in (flip and Lutz) partially related to hammer toe but related to other things as well, the odd reverse wind up (loop), the stop (Axel), odd arm postions way above her shoulders entering many of her jumps (causing her in ability to check properly going in and out which also causes the edge issues on flip and lutz). Zhang also hasn't really mastered effortless generation of power and flow from stroking. THIS more than anything could correct a lot of her technical short comings...

 

[krenseby]

Zhang also hasn't really mastered effortless generation of power and flow from stroking. THIS more than anything could correct a lot of her technical short comings...

This I agree with you. Mastering the effortless generate of power and flow from stroking would make her skating look a lot more attractive and fluid. Of course, that wouldn't help with the jumps, but the aesthetic effect it would have on her skating would be worth it. (I for one appreciate beautiful skating.)

 

[demarinis5]

During Caroline's skate at Nationals, her new coaching situation was mentioned by Tom Hammond
and he said that she has been working hard on her stroking and speed with Karen Kwan.
Caroline seems to be addressing her issues and I admire her for that. She is basically starting
from scratch and I think she knows there is no quick fix. Can she do it, we will have to wait and
see, meanwhile I will be rooting for her to succeed.

 

[blue dog]

During Caroline's skate at Nationals, her new coaching situation was mentioned by Tom Hammond
and he said that she has been working hard on her stroking and speed with Karen Kwan.
Caroline seems to be addressing her issues and I admire her for that. She is basically starting
from scratch and I think she knows there is no quick fix. Can she do it, we will have to wait and
see, meanwhile I will be rooting for her to succeed.

Me too. I want Caroline to be a contender again. The better she gets, the better the others will get. When that happens, the US team will have incredible depth again.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Her issues were more related to nerves before. She would "short pick" her jumps (and/or pick early) in previous years which caused her to under rotate her pick jumps when she competed. Her technique was mostly correct on her jumps, just timing was off causing underrotations and falls. Alissa also would slow down some competing but you could see the ability to generate power.
Zhang has many different unrelated issues with her jumps - hammer toe (flip and Lutz), inability to control edge going in (flip and Lutz) partially related to hammer toe but related to other things as well, the odd reverse wind up (loop), the stop (Axel), odd arm postions way above her shoulders entering many of her jumps (causing her in ability to check properly going in and out which also causes the edge issues on flip and lutz). Zhang also hasn't really mastered effortless generation of power and flow from stroking. THIS more than anything could correct a lot of her technical short comings...

Nerves or not, she was getting either URs, Step Outs, Falls on her jumps since 2003 that I know of. I'm happy that is behind her. You seem to think skaters can not improve or you make a final statement that they should quit skating. I do not think that is a very nice way to look at skating. Skaters can and do improve. I believe you have a mindset about Caroline. Not interested. I would prefer constructive criticism on all skaters rather than nitpicking on one.

 

[ibauer]

Maybe Caroline's career could have an arc like Cynthia Phaneuf's. PHaneuf got written off by almost everyone for many years before reviving her career.

Skating fans may have written her off, but Skate Canada did not. Her worst finish at Canadian Nationals since 2004 was 4th.

 

[feraina]

Skating fans may have written her off, but Skate Canada did not. Her worst finish at Canadian Nationals since 2004 was 4th.

Yes, but the level of ladies' skating at Canadian National's after Joannie...

 

[krenseby]

Yes, but the level of ladies' skating at Canadian National's after Joannie...

Good point; the level of competition at each country's nationals is very different. You could come in 15th place at one country's Nationals and win another's by performing exactly the same SP and LP.