What will 2010-11 bring for Caroline Zhang?

[mskater93]

You seem to think skaters can not improve or you make a final statement that they should quit skating.

I do not believe this and you have no right to put words in my posts that aren't there. My point REMAINS that Caroline has A LOT more work to do that Alissa when it comes to technique. Her's is not a one summer fix as Alissa's appears to have been. Caroline has to rework stroking, 2A, 3Lo, 3F (which is improved but has new issues), 3Lz. And the problems with each of these aren't small ones. That's a lot of work to do. It just is, there's no way around it. I am not nitpicking, just stating the obvious when you look at the current state of her skating. She also appears impatient (moving from Tammy to Peter and Karen in a short period of time instead of building the relationship with Tammy and letting the improvements come in their own time as is often the case), but this I inferred from the quick switch and is not a fact and there may be other reasons for the switch so soo after moving to Tammy.

 

[antmanb]

I do not believe this and you have no right to put words in my posts that aren't there. My point REMAINS that Caroline has A LOT more work to do that Alissa when it comes to technique. Her's is not a one summer fix as Alissa's appears to have been. Caroline has to rework stroking, 2A, 3Lo, 3F (which is improved but has new issues), 3Lz. And the problems with each of these aren't small ones. That's a lot of work to do. It just is, there's no way around it. I am not nitpicking, just stating the obvious when you look at the current state of her skating. She also appears impatient (moving from Tammy to Peter and Karen in a short period of time instead of building the relationship with Tammy and letting the improvements come in their own time as is often the case), but this I inferred from the quick switch and is not a fact and there may be other reasons for the switch so soo after moving to Tammy.

To be fair everything you list as areas for improvement for Caroline have all been worked on. I've not really watched her in a couple of years and the technique on the flip is totally different, no more hammer toe, the inside edge was well held and is definitely moving in the right direction. The loop looked different to me as well and that extreme counter rotation with arms held high has gone. The 2A didn't have the slow down scrape before it and as i mentioned before I didn't noitce her lack of speed watching the video, but that is not a good indication. Are all these things perfected yet? Of course not (does any skater ever get to sit on their laurels and stop working hard?). Caroline had/has a lot of technique issues to work through and it seems she has started. These are all positives.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do not believe this and you have no right to put words in my posts that aren't there. My point REMAINS that Caroline has A LOT more work to do that Alissa when it comes to technique. Her's is not a one summer fix as Alissa's appears to have been. Caroline has to rework stroking, 2A, 3Lo, 3F (which is improved but has new issues), 3Lz. And the problems with each of these aren't small ones. That's a lot of work to do. It just is, there's no way around it. I am not nitpicking, just stating the obvious when you look at the current state of her skating. She also appears impatient (moving from Tammy to Peter and Karen in a short period of time instead of building the relationship with Tammy and letting the improvements come in their own time as is often the case), but this I inferred from the quick switch and is not a fact and there may be other reasons for the switch so soo after moving to Tammy.

Why compare them? Does Alissa have more work to do than Yuna?
But now that you have clarified what you meant, it's not such a big deal.

 

[mskater93]

Why compare them? Does Alissa have more work to do than Yuna?
But now that you have clarified what you meant, it's not such a big deal.

Why infer things and make them a big deal, then? I can choose to disagree with you, this is a forum, yes?

 

[mskater93]

To be fair everything you list as areas for improvement for Caroline have all been worked on. I've not really watched her in a couple of years and the technique on the flip is totally different, no more hammer toe, the inside edge was well held and is definitely moving in the right direction. The loop looked different to me as well and that extreme counter rotation with arms held high has gone. The 2A didn't have the slow down scrape before it and as i mentioned before I didn't noitce her lack of speed watching the video, but that is not a good indication. Are all these things perfected yet? Of course not (does any skater ever get to sit on their laurels and stop working hard?). Caroline had/has a lot of technique issues to work through and it seems she has started. These are all positives.

Ant

I still pick out many of the same problems (at least in the LP) just not perhaps as severe as they were.

 

[antmanb]

I still pick out many of the same problems (at least in the LP) just not perhaps as severe as they were.

I'll have to look up the LP and look at it with a more critical eye ;-)

Ant

 

[herios]

This blog entry from Aunt Joyce somehow was missed by Caroline's cheering crowd:

http://auntjoycesicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2011/01/caroline-zhang-changes-coaches.html

It pretty much sums up with how I feel about where she is at in her career

 

[R.D.]

The thing about Zhang is that she has to enjoy the process. If not, it will be that much tougher for her. But regardless, there is GOING to be frustration. It's naive to think otherwise. It's about whether she has the patience, the discipline, the vision, and the guidance (this is where the coach comes in) to climb her way back up.

 

[krenseby]

This blog entry from Aunt Joyce somehow was missed by Caroline's cheering crowd:

http://auntjoycesicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2011/01/caroline-zhang-changes-coaches.html

It pretty much sums up with how I feel about where she is at in her career

Well, from what I know, it seems like Tammy Gambill has much more of a reputation for teaching good technique to skaters than Peter and Karen Kwan Oppegard do. (Peter isn't well known as a coach, I gather.) While she was with Tammy, she had the appropriate guidance to change her technique. As for her current coach, no idea. I wonder why she switched.

 

[R.D.]

Perhaps...maybe it wasn't working out? It's not that simple..not that "cut and paste".

 

[mskater93]

Perhaps...maybe it wasn't working out? It's not that simple..not that "cut and paste".

That was why I suggested that perhaps she was too impatient and expecting immediate improvement/success and when it didn't happen she dumped Gambil? It typically takes 1+ years to develop a good working relationship between coach and student where they read off the same sheet of music...

 

[PolymerBob]

This blog entry from Aunt Joyce somehow was missed by Caroline's cheering crowd:

http://auntjoycesicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2011/01/caroline-zhang-changes-coaches.html

Caroline's cheering crowd never misses Aunt Joyce's blogs.

We never read them, and we never miss them. :sheesh:

 

[krenseby]

That was why I suggested that perhaps she was too impatient and expecting immediate improvement/success and when it didn't happen she dumped Gambil? It typically takes 1+ years to develop a good working relationship between coach and student where they read off the same sheet of music...

Also, the icenetwork article mentioned something about edge and stroking classes that she was doing after the coaching change. I wonder what they meant by that. Does her rink offer classes like that with an expert or is that something that she is doing with her coaches?

 

[demarinis5]

Caroline's cheering crowd never misses Aunt Joyce's blogs.

We never read them, and we never miss them. :sheesh:

Good one.

 

[herios]

Caroline's cheering crowd never misses Aunt Joyce's blogs.

We never read them, and we never miss them. :sheesh:

Of course not. You cannot take any criticism of her. Only rosy coloured statements.

 

[antmanb]

That was why I suggested that perhaps she was too impatient and expecting immediate improvement/success and when it didn't happen she dumped Gambil? It typically takes 1+ years to develop a good working relationship between coach and student where they read off the same sheet of music...

What if you simply don't get on with someone? I'm not saying that is the case between Zhang and Gambill, but jumping to the conclusion that Zhang must have felt she wasn't getting results and switched is a massive assumption at this stage.

I've worked with truly excellent talented people who have rubbed me up the wrong way from the get go, and giving it more time simply made me dislike them more, even though there were things I could have learned from them, i chose to sacrifice the learning for a happier life.

As with all these situations the only peoploe who really know what happened are Zhang and Gambill.

Ant

 

[mskater93]

As I said "it appears to me...." because there was the whole hoopla of Zhang looking for a coach when Li returned to China and she had the whole coach search thing. I proposed it as a theory, not as fact.

 

[krenseby]

As with all these situations the only peoploe who really know what happened are Zhang and Gambill.

Ant

It's very hard to speculate in this case, especially because it seemed like Zhang and Gambill had no issues whatsoever in the kiss and cry and only ever said positive things about each other.

However, there is a factor in this coach change that I spotted immediately: Karen Kwan. Caroline has used her as a choreographer before and she babysit her kids at least once. It's possible that Caroline has a very close relationship with Karen Kwan and that could have been a reason why she chose to switch over to her and Peter. However, the wisdom to switching over to someone that you are very close to personally is debatable. Is it possible for coaches to maintain professional distance and offer objective judgment to a skater that they are otherwise affectionate and friendly with outside of the rink? (Granted, I have no idea how close Zhang's relationship with Karen is, but probably a semi-friendly one at least. But this is all just speculation.)

This also reminded me of Alissa's relationship with Yuka Sato. They knew each other for a quite while before Alissa switched to her as primary coach, and were also on very friendly terms. How does Yuka manage to be both a friend and a coach? Is it possible to fulfill both roles at the same time?

 

[dorispulaski]

Sometimes, clearly.

Johnny Weir & Priscilla Hill seemed to be friends until the personal angle finally got in the way.

Brian Boitano was obviously close to Linda Leaver, and still is.

It depends on the coach, and on the skater, to make it work, which is true of any coaching situation.

 

[feraina]

However, there is a factor in this coach change that I spotted immediately: Karen Kwan. Caroline has used her as a choreographer before and she babysit her kids at least once. It's possible that Caroline has a very close relationship with Karen Kwan and that could have been a reason why she chose to switch over to her and Peter.

I saw Caroline skate at Golden West a couple summers ago. Karen Kwan was at the boards for her rather than her then-coach Li. Karen was there for a bunch of other skaters as well, and maybe Li just couldn't make it, so Karen was a convenient stand-in. And I've seen Caroline with Karen in family gathering photos. So obviously they do have a close personal relationship, and have had some informal coaching experiences together before.

As for being too close, we have the examples of Alissa and her former coach, and Johnny Weir with Priscilla, both ended up not working out professional. But we also have Jason Brown, who's very close to Kori Ade personally, and apparently was helping Kori feed her newborn on the plane ride back from National's last year (she had her baby induced early so that she could be at National's with him). So I think it really depends on the particular people involved whether they would work out well together despite having a close personal relationship.