State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season

[drivingmissdaisy]

Bring back figures. If not in competition they should be doing them with coaches. It wouldn't solve all but I think it would help. Kristi, Nancy, Tonya all came up on the figures era. Mental game aside, when they hit jumps they were pretty damn good, as far as edges, take off, being done properly. Technique is everything.

When I look back to the early 90s, all the top skaters were doing the triples through the lutz, as they are now. Virtually none of them had issues with <, with the exception of Bonaly on some of the 3T combos, and most did not have edge issues on the flip or lutz. I don't think it is a coincidence that they weren't rushing to do the triples by 10 years old but instead learned how to properly take off for the jumps by mastering doubles with good technique and then focusing on rotation.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

When I look back to the early 90s, all the top skaters were doing the triples through the lutz, as they are now. Virtually none of them had issues with <, with the exception of Bonaly on some of the 3T combos, and most did not have edge issues on the flip or lutz. I don't think it is a coincidence that they weren't rushing to do the triples by 10 years old but instead learned how to properly take off for the jumps by mastering doubles with good technique and then focusing on rotation.

I beg to differ. Several ladies had edge issues (Kwan's flutz being the immediate example) and UR issues. In fact, URs were very rarely called against a skater -- a skater would usually get credit for attempting a hard 3-3 combo even if it was URed, moreso than they would have gotten credit for a clean 3-2 ("At least they went for it!" points, so to speak). URs happened with Hughes in the Olympics for example, or Kwan's 3-3, or Bonaly on some -3T combos as you said.

Of course, there were many skaters who didn't have edge/UR issues, but I think it's somewhat unfair to say edge/UR calls is something that plagues the ladies today when really, edge calls/UR calls are being scrutinized and penalized way more today under IJS.

 

[tulosai]

I beg to differ. Several ladies had edge issues (Kwan's flutz being the immediate example) and UR issues. In fact, URs were very rarely called against a skater -- a skater would usually get credit for attempting a hard 3-3 combo even if it was URed, moreso than they would have gotten credit for a clean 3-2 ("At least they went for it!" points, so to speak). URs happened with Hughes in the Olympics for example, or Kwan's 3-3, or Bonaly on some -3T combos as you said.

Of course, there were many skaters who didn't have edge/UR issues, but I think it's somewhat unfair to say edge/UR calls is something that plagues the ladies today when really, edge calls/UR calls are being scrutinized and penalized way more today under IJS.

This. Oskana Baiul is another one who has some URs and still managed to win an OGM (though they may have been due to her injury- all the same, today they's be called as such).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I beg to differ. Several ladies had edge issues (Kwan's flutz being the immediate example) and UR issues. In fact, URs were very rarely called against a skater -- a skater would usually get credit for attempting a hard 3-3 combo even if it was URed, moreso than they would have gotten credit for a clean 3-2 ("At least they went for it!" points, so to speak). URs happened with Hughes in the Olympics for example, or Kwan's 3-3, or Bonaly on some -3T combos as you said.

Sorry, I was addressing skaters who did compete around the time of figures ending. Bonaly, Baiul, Ito, Yamagichi, Sato, Lu (who did UR some jumps), Harding and Kerrigan. That comprises the top skaters from around 1989 - 1994 who did the jumps through the lutz.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This. Oskana Baiul is another one who has some URs and still managed to win an OGM (though they may have been due to her injury- all the same, today they's be called as such).

What did she UR?

 

[flutz16]

not many expected Wagner to be the top US lady this season after her Japan Open disaster
looks like the tall gaselle Edmunds and Disney Princess looking Gracie will have to prove themselves otherwise

 

[vexlak]

We are talking about few ladies from a large pool of skaters.
If USFSA will keep operating the way they are, it will only get worse. There is no dept in US figure skating. There are very few that may maybe competitive, but let's get realistic and see how did the juniors do this year... It is quite obvious. This is in a country where the membership is one of the largest in the world (as per USFSA there are 140K members). It had nothing to do with popularity of the sport, it is the system. There is too much focus on singular competitions (regions, sections and the nationals). Imagine how stressful this is. I was always wandering why would the USFSA not allow a series of competition that competitors would participate in with a point system which would count towards the nationals. Consistency is the word! This would also popularize the sport. Have you been to local, regional or the sectional championships? Besides the parents, other coaches and competitions, there are no spectators. Also the cost of competing is also a issue. While most of the ISU international competition entry fee is around 40-60EURO, it costs well above $200 to participate in a competition in the US. Who is ripping off who? I guess skaters can afford it. In that case, why not send more skaters on their own cost to compete internationally?
I hope that the current mafia like operation at the USFSA will be terminated and more skater friendly changes will be implemented. Only then more dept will be assumed.

 

[tulosai]

What did she UR?

I seem to recall her Oly FS being littered with two-footed URs. If I am mistaken, let me know... no time to watch it now and be specific.

 

[Icey]

Since the mid 50s when Tenley Albright won the first World Title for the U.S. the American ladies have always challenged for gold and the podium. The longest streak of no medals at Worlds since the 30s, its like the dark ages

Seriously, what exactly has changed in the U.S. that the last two generations of American women crumble under the pressure

I don't think it is that they crumble under pressure so much as that there are just a lot of very talented skaters from other countries.

 

[Jammers]

I don't think it is that they crumble under pressure so much as that there are just a lot of very talented skaters from other countries.

I disagree. From Mirai bombing her LP in 2010 to Gracie doing the same thing in 2014 US Ladies had a World medal in their laps and failed to get it done when it counted and it was because they couldn't handle the pressure.

 

[Sandpiper]

Kwan did have a flutz and sometimes UR'ed her 3-3, but she wasn't worse than her competitors on those regards. I doubt Slutskaya's combos would fare any better under today's tech panels.

Trying to trace Team USA's problems back to the 6.0 era is fruitless. Once again, even if we judged every Worlds from 2007 to 2014 under 6.0, we would not come up with a single American winner. And maybe not even a single American medalist.

I seem to recall her Oly FS being littered with two-footed URs. If I am mistaken, let me know... no time to watch it now and be specific.

Baiul did have a two-foot problem but I don't think she UR'ed. But I'm not the best judge of this.

 

[b-man]

Some international scores for US ladies, halfway through the GP season: Wagner and Gold leading the pack.

Wagner: 186.0-SC AV -186.0
Gold, 182.3 Nebelhorn, 179.3-SA, Av-180.8
Hicks: 174.5-SC, 174.1, US Int Clas., Av-174.3
Miller 170.2 Lombardia AV-170.2
Edmunds-161.2 Coc, 176.3-US Int Av-168.7
Cesario- 174.5-SA, 159.4-Fin Av 166.9
Wang-160.2 Lombardia Av 160.2
Nagasu- 159.4-US int, 158.2 SA Av 158.8
Bell 148.4 Av 148.4
Gao 125.0 Coc Av 125.0
Cain 124.8 Coc Av 124.8

 

[Mrs. P]

So lots of U.S. Ladies action this week! We got Mirai Nagasu, Angela Wang and Ashley Cain in Rostelecom Cup and Hannah Miller has her second B event in Ice Challenge in Graz.

It will be interesting to see how Miller has progressed this season! Angela Wang will be making her GP debut and we'll see if Mirai and Ashley can improve on their previous GP performances!

 

[minze]

So lots of U.S. Ladies action this week! We got Mirai Nagasu, Angela Wang and Ashley Cain in Rostelecom Cup and Hannah Miller has her second B event in Ice Challenge in Graz.

It will be interesting to see how Miller has progressed this season! Angela Wang will be making her GP debut and we'll see if Mirai and Ashley can improve on their previous GP performances!

I hope so there is something I love about Ashley Cain
By the way Philip Hersh made such a mean comment about her on Twitter. He has a way of kicking people when they are down.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I seem to recall her Oly FS being littered with two-footed URs. If I am mistaken, let me know... no time to watch it now and be specific.

She had one UR (on a 3F-3T<, at that) and I believe she had a slight two foot on her 3-jump combo. But she still executed an excellent free skate, and certainly not one that was "littered" with UR/2-foot landings.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sorry, I was addressing skaters who did compete around the time of figures ending. Bonaly, Baiul, Ito, Yamagichi, Sato, Lu (who did UR some jumps), Harding and Kerrigan. That comprises the top skaters from around 1989 - 1994 who did the jumps through the lutz.

Interestingly, skaters with builds like Ito and Harding and Yamaguchi are rarely seen in top competitors today. I wonder if being a more built stronger skater allows you to maintain edges on your flip and lutz because you're strong enough to vault up (we've had threads about why skaters flutz and don't), but also these stronger skaters had huge jumps, without having to worry about transitions mind you, so they rarely URed them.

 

[Puchi]

She had one UR (on a 3F-3T<, at that) and I believe she had a slight two foot on her 3-jump combo. But she still executed an excellent free skate, and certainly not one that was "littered" with UR/2-foot landings.

Are you sure you're talking about the same skater? I think tulosai was referring to Oksana Baiul's Olympic FS.

 

[SkatingFun]

Some international scores for US ladies, halfway through the GP season: Wagner and Gold leading the pack.

Wagner: 186.0-SC AV -186.0
Gold, 182.3 Nebelhorn, 179.3-SA, Av-180.8
Hicks: 174.5-SC, 174.1, US Int Clas., Av-174.3
Miller 170.2 Lombardia AV-170.2
Edmunds-161.2 Coc, 176.3-US Int Av-168.7
Cesario- 174.5-SA, 159.4-Fin Av 166.9
Wang-160.2 Lombardia Av 160.2
Nagasu- 159.4-US int, 158.2 SA Av 158.8
Bell 148.4 Av 148.4
Gao 125.0 Coc Av 125.0
Cain 124.8 Coc Av 124.8

this comparison is meaningless though. What's the purpose you did this?!

 

[tommyk75]

Interestingly, skaters with builds like Ito and Harding and Yamaguchi are rarely seen in top competitors today. I wonder if being a more built stronger skater allows you to maintain edges on your flip and lutz because you're strong enough to vault up (we've had threads about why skaters flutz and don't), but also these stronger skaters had huge jumps, without having to worry about transitions mind you, so they rarely URed them.

Midori and Tonya had more muscular, athletic builds, but I don't know how Kristi could be grouped with them. She was as thin and wispy as they come!

 

[b-man]

this comparison is meaningless though. What's the purpose you did this?!

The thread is titled status of US ladies. My comparison tells me Wagner and Gold are skating well, compared to their US competition, and Gao and Cain are strggling. The post gives a quick summary of early results. Scores of course, will change as the season progresses.